Comfortable and Flexible, suspending your legs

[Ernst]

The Swedish wills bother me, as the testator leaves a lendener, but no mail chausses or other leg harness: Horses, spaulders, plates, helms and kettle hats, lendeners..... no aketons, nor leg armor?

The first and third wills do seem to have leg armour in them.

- stikchata husu
- beenbiaergh

I checked these two with a Swedish friend of mine, Peter Ahlqvist, and he thinks along the same ways as me:
"My guess is that stikchata husu means gambeson hose. Stickad means embroided or stitched in medieval Swedish and in the context gambeson hose makes sense.
Beenbiaergh is most likely leg plates."

Thanks. Beenbiaergh seems equivalent to the English bainbergs > German beinberg.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jGMYA ... gs&f=false

[Mac]

I'm just tossing a couple of images into the lentner discussion. These are all holding up hosen, but they may be relevant.







On this one, I can't decide if the dark thing is a sort of belt, or if it's all we can see of a (white lined) doublet that's been undone to the waist and thrown off his shoulders.



Mac

[Ernst]

I would say those are quite relevant, Mac. The putto has no choice but to use the belt, as he has no braies!

[Mac]

Unfortunately, the St. Erasmus example turns out to be a doublet. I found a bigger image of that painting late last night, and cropped out this detail. Oh well.....



Mac

[Klaus the Red]

The one worn by the chap in your first image (who I assume is tormenting Christ) looks a dead ringer for the typical SCA kidney belt.

[Mac]

It's resemblance to one of Mr. Pitbull's "c belts" is pretty striking. Having been trained up as an entomologist, I think of this as
"convergent evolution".

Mac

[Tom B.]

Here is the latest photo of Ian's Lendenier Mk II
(Taken from his Facebook page)

[Cet]

The belt in the first image most recentpictures Mac posted reminds me of the substantial belts sometimes seen on crossbowmen.

[Klaus the Red]

Ie, to support the stress of a crannequin?

[Mac]

Ie, to support the stress of a crannequin?

For a spanning hook.



Mac

[Ian L]

So the lendenier got a lot of harness time this past weekend at a living history timeline event called 'Days of Knights' in Kentucky and I thought I'd share my thoughts and a little 'after action report.'

I wore the lendenier for about 7 hours each day, with leg harness on for probably about 4 hours each day . When I stripped the top half of the armor, or before fully harnessing up I kept the leg harness suspended to maximize the lendenier's time of use. Overall it was a great experience.

Without leg harness on with the lendener under my arming doublet, it is completely transparent to you. Sitting, standing, walking, running etc are completely unaffected. There was never a point where I was aware that I had an extra garment on by feel. It felt virtually the same as if I'd only had my pourpoint on.

When you do point your leg harness to it, it will settle as you wear it over 10 minutes or so. I found jumping up and down and moving around after initially pointing your legs will accelerate that process and help it find its final spot. Once it's there it's rock solid. Over the course of wearing my legs for several hours with the lendener, I would occasionally have to re-truss the points to tighten them, but that was independent on the lendenier and just a result of the points themselves loosening a bit over time (something that can be remedied by re-waxing them), but some of that is unavoidable. Compared to the leather version I made, the textile version is considerably more comfortable over time. Based on this weekend, the textile lendener is my preferred method of leg suspension (as compared to the leather version or using the doublet directly).


Here is the final state of the textile lendenier and the harness I wore it with:

[Bertus Brokamp]

Excellent

[Ernst]

Looking sharp, Ian.

Don't purchase account for the points usually specify silk? Is this because silk doesn't stretch, or because of it's resistance to breaking or cutting?

[Klaus the Red]

Damn, dude. Right off an effigy.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Seriously. I'm impressed with you all over, man. The video series, the work with these suspension systems, and that killer suit you're rocking. Well done!

[Ian L]

Don't purchase account for the points usually specify silk? Is this because silk doesn't stretch, or because of it's resistance to breaking or cutting?

That I don't know, but would love to hear more. I personally use hemp, braided and waxed, and they've lasted an excessively long time, but as the wax leaves the points over repeated uses the points don't always stay as secure, and may require re-trussing now and then. I think we moderns tend to worry about our points a lot more than medievals, as they were a disposable item. You wouldn't care if after a battle you had to cut them off, whereas many of us don't want to go through points every time we put on our armor.

[Ernst]

I just spotted this one in Sean M's provided Comptes de l'argenterie des rois de France au XIVe siècle.
https://archive.org/details/comptesdelargen00dougoog

p.143

Ledit Prince, pour 2 livres de soye de plusieurs couleurs,
à faire aguillètes, las et tissus ans diz hernois,
14 escus

For the same Prince, for 2 pounds of silk of many colors,
to make aglets (aiguillettes, points), and the straps for said harness
14 crowns

Even as early as the 1278 Tournament of Windsor, the 8 dozen loops (laqueos - noose) purchased from Richard Paternoster for tying ailettes are specified to be silk (serico). Perhaps someone can chime in regarding the Howard accounts, but I recall silk points being purchased by the gross (144, a dozen dozen).

This makes me wonder if the silk points are braided, like the cords to hold beads, or if they aren't long, sewn tubes - piping, instead.

[Tom B.]

I too have only used hemp but have wondered about silk.
I may have to buy some silk to braid up.

Mart your idea that they could be tubes is interesting as well.

[Tom B.]

There is this 1580 doublet point in the Met that seems to be made from silk ribbon folded over.

Met Online Page - with zoomable high res photo

[Ernst]

A couple more images from IMAREAL.
1445-1450, Master of Laufen, lower right, thief in green. A two-tone tunic?

[Ernst]

And a new term to add to the search.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=180611

1311 Inventory of John fitz Marmaduke, Lord of Horden

Lumbar xviij d.
Loiner, 18d.

(Possibly the Latin for lendener. We associate the word lumbar with the lower back, but it means the loin.)

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

It may be that this is not an either/or. This comes from a very distant culture, but if I remember properly, I was surprised to find that the famous 'silk' laces used to hold Japanese armour together were actually hemp wrapped in silk. I think it quite possible for civilian wear that pure silk would often have been used, however.

[Ernst]

Roland Warzecha (Dimicator) has this miniature on one of his I.33 Facebook pages from the Soester Nequambuch, Stadtarchiv Soest, 1315.

The brigand to the right watching his comrade about to be decapitated may be wearing a lendener. It appears to have numerous vertical quilting lines, like his unfortunate partner's gambeson. The numerous forked tabs at the base would facilitate various attachment points.

For comparison, here's another image from the same manuscript showing an aketon or gambeson on a horseman.
http://product-images.highwire.com/8560 ... d1cf24.jpg

Soester Nequambuch-gamby.jpg (93.22 KiB) Viewed 3865 times

[Ernst]

One account of white leather points.

1367 Inventory of Guy d’Ibelin, Bishop of Limassol, Cyprus
http://www.persee.fr/doc/bch_0007-4217_ ... _74_1_2496
item 5 douzenes d'aguilletes pour armer, de cuir blanc, vendues B. 1 d. 12 ;
Item, 5 dozen points for arming, of white leather, valued 1 besant, 12 deniers;

[Ian L]

Just to add this to the list of images... everyone's familiar with this one, but mostly because they're so focused on the half-shirt of mail. What's also interesting in this image is the object worn around the waist of one of the attendants. It looks like it's clearly a separate piece of kit worn over the doublet, not simply a part of the doublet itself:

[Mac]

While we're at it, let's look at this guy as well.

That might be the skirt of his doublet... but it looks a bit funny. I wonder if it might be the belt that's holding up his mail skirt (brayette?), and that those points are for the leg armor. The points are certainly not holding up his hosen.



Mac

[Klaus the Red]

I agree, the point must be holding the leg harness. I'd guess the brayette is on a drawstring, á la braies. I'm seeing the suggestion of a quilted foundation coat through the arm hole of a sleeveless doublet, to which the sleeves possibly correspond. Then we have this funny mini-tabard with heraldry over the top. So: three layers of garments, and no body armor?

[Jason Grimes]

While we're at it, let's look at this guy as well.

That might be the skirt of his doublet... but it looks a bit funny. I wonder if it might be the belt that's holding up his mail skirt (brayette?), and that those points are for the leg armor. The points are certainly not holding up his hosen.
Mac

He is wearing a giornea. There are suspicious rivets or something else on the edge of what he is wearing under the giornea. It would be nice to see a rear view of the statue.

[Sean M]

In the age of the high narrow waistline, its really common to wear a belt where the servant carrying wounded Agesilaus is wearing his. You don't need it if your outer layer is a doublet not a shirt or gown that needs gathering to create 'the look,' but that was still a common level to wear a belt.

[Mac]

I'm seeing the suggestion of a quilted foundation coat through the arm hole of a sleeveless doublet,

I think the sculptor is showing us the wrinkles of his shirt sleeves as they are compressed into the doublet sleeves.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

Right, shirt-wrinkles makes sense. Now I'm seeing the really wide silk-ribbon points on the sleeves of the giornea (thanks, Jason!) that I'd missed before. I think those are more likely to be eyelets on the hem than rivets.

[Klaus the Red]

Another observation: I'm surprised how short the doublet sleeves are. My eye is used to 14th century fashion where the cuff would cover the back of the hand as often as not.

And is the term "farsetto" more appropriate? https://www.pinterest.com/pin/362821313700075160/

[Tom B.]

While we're at it, let's look at this guy as well.

That might be the skirt of his doublet... but it looks a bit funny. I wonder if it might be the belt that's holding up his mail skirt (brayette?), and that those points are for the leg armor. The points are certainly not holding up his hosen.



Mac

There are two statues here, I have gathered several images:
https://goo.gl/photos/dpFkyBbnPcVA1wPK7

Also from a post over on the AAF

The statues of the Pages the Shield bearers, attributed to the workshop of Antonio Rizzo. These statues were installed in the Church of Santa Maria dei Servi in Venice and used to be a part of Giovanni Emo the Doge of Venice tomb.

[Sean M]

Another observation: I'm surprised how short the doublet sleeves are. My eye is used to 14th century fashion where the cuff would cover the back of the hand as often as not.

That is an interesting detail in late 14th century fashion, isn't it! The kneeling man who Tasha put on the cover of her C de B pattern has those "bell bottom" sleeves which cover the base of his hand. They are more subtle than giant hanging sleeves, or a cloak lined with hundreds of expensive furs, but they still say "I don't know about you peasants, but I don't use my hands for anything messy. I have people for that."

This 15th century guy seems to have at least a handsbreadth of skin between the bottom of his sleeves and his wrist. I am sure that late 15th century fashion is a fascinating topic, but as I said in the "King's Servants" thread, I don't know anything about it and don't have time to learn.

Sometimes its easier to focus on modern English terms rather than try to find the right historical one. Italian has so many dialects, and a word could mean one thing in Genoa in 1300 and something else in Venice in 1500.

[Klaus the Red]

Sleeve length might be due to textile fashion echoing armor fashion (and vice versa), since vambraces / lower cannons were also trending shorter by this time, and gauntlet cuffs had gotten longer.