1360s Scabbard Project

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Mac
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Sean M wrote:Where does this term 'bell closure' come from? All the bells I know are cast, right?
I made it up :oops:

This is the sort of thing I meant to compare it to. Modern bells of sheet metal are frequently formed this way.

Image



There is also a type of cast pewter bell which is closed by bending four flaps inward.

Image

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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Sean M wrote:Also, one of the archaeological reports, maybe Carol van Driel-Murray or Leather and Leatherworking from Anglo-Saxon and Medieval York, estimates that the scabbard leathers were a few fingers longer than the sword. I thought that was to allow for the unsealed wood to expand and contract in the field, but it might also make sure that any little rivets supporting the chape don't scratch the blade.

Someone on MyArmoury has an 18th century tulwar scabbard with tiny headless rivets holding the chape in place.
I think it's pretty normal for the chape to extend the lines of the edges of the sword and scabbard in such a way as to make the point appear pointier. This lets the chape be pretty straight sided and easier to make. It also looks cool. As such, I suspect that it's typical that very little of the blade is actually within the chape. I don't know if that makes there be enough room for rivets or not.

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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by John Vernier »

Sean, the fire in your fireplace will probably be plenty hot enough, but bear in mind that you can always intensify the heat with a bellows, or if you don't have one, blow air through a pipe. It is common in some cultures to solder even with high-temperature silver solder over a charcoal brazier with airflow added by fanning with a hand-held fan (and I don't mean an electrical one).
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Harry Marinakis »

Thanks Sean for turning us onto the chape images. I just spent a lot of time looking through the data base. Here are the different chapes that I found:

SHEET METAL CHAPES

The simplest chapes are rolled into a conical shape with butted or lapped seams. The tip is either left pointed (rare) or folded under like a bell (most common). No solder, they are riveted onto the scabbard. No edge decorations, no engraving.

The next step up in complexity are chapes made as above, but there is edge decoration (like scalloping) and engraving (simple geometrics like transverse bands and rays). They may or may not be riveted onto the scabbard.

Some chapes have a butted side seam instead of a seam in the back. Many of these seem to have a rivet hole only on one side of the chape - the side where the seam is located.

The next step up in complexity are chapes as described above, but are soldered closed.

We have seen in the photos above that some chapes are closed with a staple.

The highest complexity sheet metal chapes have openwork drilled or filed into the body of the chape, are soldered closed, either on the side or the back, with butted or lapped seams. These almost always have a ball soldered onto the point (either a little nubbin or large ball). The workmanship is excellent.

CAST CHAPES

Cast chapes seem to be made in the clamshell format. It seems that both the front and back plates are identical, so the two halves are probably made from the same mold. There are rivet holes in many of the cast chapes, so I assume that they were both soldered and riveted.

Cast chapes almost always have openwork and a many have a nubbin on the point, which is part of the cast.

- - - - - - -

So, it seems that chapes were made by a very wide variety of methods.

My question: In regards to riveted chapes, how would one rivet a chape onto a scabbard? The wood cores were extremely thin (less than 1/8" or 3 mm), so how do you go about putting a rivet into the scabbard without damaging either the scabbard or the blade?

I'm guessing that hole was drilled into the scabbard, the rivet was cut to length, and then the rivet was glued into hole.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

I've made a couple more attempts today, and while there was some progress, it's nothing to be proud of. The most recent one was in .025" (.64mm) brass, rather than .032" (.8mm). It was easier to work, and probably strong enough to do its job, but it's a bit too thin to remove the hammer marks I made. Now.... if I'd used a steel mandrel, rather than a wooden one, the soft mallet may not have made any marks.

ImageImage

Mark,

Can I trouble you for some more info on 5565? A narrow-side view, and open-end view, and a thickness would help a lot.

Thanks!
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Sean M »

Harry Marinakis wrote:Thanks Sean for turning us onto the chape images. I just spent a lot of time looking through the data base. Here are the different chapes that I found:
Harry, no thank you! You did the big experiment with historical dyes, I am just reminding people that if they know a bit of metalworking chapes are a good Saturday project.

The 18th century French furbishers ordered 4" wide beech slats by the hundred, I suspect that once you made a hundred chapes the work would go quickly.

Here is Bishop Gerhard von Würzburg's sword, belt, and scabbard from his grave (c/o Wolfgang Jahn, Jutta Schumann, Evamaria Brockhoff (eds.), Edel und Frei. Franken im Mittelalter p. 180, 181).

Image

I see a three-links-of-chain fastener on one edge and a good old trilobate design like on my dagger chape cut in the locket, I wish we could see what was happening on the other edge.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by gaukler »

Here, as requested, are some more photos of 5565. It's a bit of an outlier: it has applied decoration and a decorated edge, and the metal is quite thick- 17 gauge by my measuring. 4.4cm long, 2.5x1.2cm at the opening.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by gaukler »

More photos of 5565. Ignore the excess conservation wax.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Galileo »

Sean M wrote: Could you answer my question about the source of heat which I do have? That costs 0 Euros 0, requires 0 minutes in front of a browser wrestling with online stores (part of the point of this is to get away from books and keyboards), and I have enough experience with it that I am pretty sure I would not set myself or the workspace on fire with it.
Do you have a gas stovetop? Your burners should get plenty hot enough for annealing brass.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Thanks for the additional pics and info Mark!

It looks like the mandrel I'm using is a bit to flat-sided. I'll try this again in a couple of days and see what I get.

Mac
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by gaukler »

Mac, I think you are taking too much care making these:)
Here is one that I haven't got a number for yet. It's a pretty typical knife chape.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by gaukler »

And one more, since the board only allows three images per post.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by gaukler »

This is 6327, with a typical Thames patina. It's pretty flat. 25 gauge.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by gaukler »

7264. Another flat one. 25 gauge. Stapled, with remains of leather inside.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

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5564. 17 gauge.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Thanks for all those pics, Mark!

I wish we had some way to know how "nice" the surfaces were when these were new. I'm fretting about the mallet marks on my tests, but perhaps I shouldn't.

Mac
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Harry Marinakis »

Mac,
If you're inclined, I would like to see a photo of one of your chapes - but flattened back out. I'd like to see the pattern.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Harry Marinakis wrote:Mac,
If you're inclined, I would like to see a photo of one of your chapes - but flattened back out. I'd like to see the pattern.
I can shoot you a pic of the template if I can find it.... but the important thing is that I'm not cutting the places where the bottom will be closed until after it is formed up and soldered. I found that if I cut them beforehand, I could not reliably get them to line up with the major axes of the chape and it all came out all wonky.

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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Here are a couple of pics of the template, Harry. Sorry I took so long :oops:

Image

The template is sized to wrap tightly around the mandrel. The other three cuts in the end get made after the brass in shaped up and soldered. I use a dremel cutoff wheel for that. That's not "historically informed practice", but it produces neater cuts than a shears. If I were doing these professionally, I'd probably try to come up with a more authentic method.

Image

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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Harry Marinakis »

Thanks bro
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Sean M »

One half of the scabbard is done except for the final tweaks and sanding of the inside. Doing this with small tools and dried wood is a lot of work and if I ever have money and storage space I will look into Dremels and drawknives or hook knives.

I still think that my original idea of having shops make lathes 2-3 mm thick was good, just not for blunts with a rectangular cross section. Some estocs and rapiers have that section (Daniel Parry's Type V) and I wonder how the furbishers handled it, but they had proper wood and proper tools.

I think that the gouges with C-cros-sectioned blades less than 1 cm across will need professional sharpening. Does anyone have advice in simple words for sharpening the chisels with straight blades? I have a whetstone but no access to jeweler's rouge etc. (if I ever have time, I will ask one of the knife shops, but the hardware shops have not much for sharpening). These tools seem to have a secondary bevel, there is a bright line along the cutting edge when I hold it up against the light.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

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Sean, nowadays after a few years as a "serious" woodworker :roll: I find most sharpening instructions to be overcomplicated. Taking my cue from 19th century advice, I try to do most of my sharpening with one or two stones and a leather strop. I don't know what type of stone you have, but most modern advice seems to insist that you have multiple stones including very fine grits, which I think you can avoid for the most part. I like to use a Washita oilstone for most of my chisel sharpening, because I have a good old one, but a fine India stone really is fine enough for most work. I do use a coarser stone or even a grinder if I need to radically shape an edge, but for routine sharpening I generally just use the Washita, then the strop. Some people like to strop on bare leather but I usually use a bit of Simichrome paste which serves as well as any rouge compound. There are other brands of similar compound, sold for polishing automobile or motorcycle chrome, so try an auto parts store. It should not be expensive.

I generally sharpen free-hand, but that takes some practice to get good consistent edges. I have had good results with the cheap and common "Eclipse" style sharpening jig for straight chisels. The secondary bevel you mention is what I usually aim for in sharpening. Even of I am only using one stone I will do most of the honing at one angle (about 30 degrees) and then lift the angle of the tool slightly and rub it a few times with very light pressure to form the fine secondary bevel. This trick actually works well with the Washita stone which is why I prefer it. I do the same with curved gouges, working side-to-side across the edge.

I know that description is less than adequate. If you have questions I may be able to answer better, even with pictures, in the next few days. I can also recommend the blogs of Paul Sellers https://paulsellers.com/woodworking-blo ... lers-blog/ and Christopher Schwarz (Lost Art Press) https://blog.lostartpress.com/ for good no-nonsense sharpening advice, although in both cases they write extensively and repetitively about the subject so you might want to search around their blogs if you are looking for specific information.
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

John Vernier wrote:I can also recommend the blogs of Paul Sellers https://paulsellers.com/woodworking-blo ... lers-blog/
I second Paul Sellers. His videos are straight forward, no nonsense. He also knows when good enough is good enough.

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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Harry Marinakis »

Mac:

re: closing the ends of chapes

Google pipe fitters "orange peel"
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Re: 1360s Scabbard Project

Post by Mac »

Harry Marinakis wrote:Mac:

re: closing the ends of chapes

Google pipe fitters "orange peel"
The things that came up when I did that search presume a round pipe. If your "pipe" is oval, like a chape, the "peel" segments are going to have to be asymmetrical. There are probably graphic ways to generate that pattern if you know the shape of the cross section, etc., but I haven't found them yet.

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