How do the grips of hand pavises work?
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How do the grips of hand pavises work?
Hi guys,
I'm just wondering how hand pavises were handled? (I'm not talking about the large crossbow men pavises rather than of the small variants)
Their grip has often a Y-shape. Are they used like viking era shields? How was their weird grip held?
The grip material often seems to be bull pizzle or raw hide (on some there seems to be a wooden core, but not on all?). Therefore, it is probably flexible to some extend. Isn't this uncomfortable while fighting?
And what's the reason for the "tunnel"?
Here is another example: https://collections.royalarmouries.org/ ... t-519.html (Dimensions: Length: 635 mm (25 in,); width: 394 mm (15.5 in.) Weight: 8 lb)
thanks and regards
Croq
I'm just wondering how hand pavises were handled? (I'm not talking about the large crossbow men pavises rather than of the small variants)
Their grip has often a Y-shape. Are they used like viking era shields? How was their weird grip held?
The grip material often seems to be bull pizzle or raw hide (on some there seems to be a wooden core, but not on all?). Therefore, it is probably flexible to some extend. Isn't this uncomfortable while fighting?
And what's the reason for the "tunnel"?
Here is another example: https://collections.royalarmouries.org/ ... t-519.html (Dimensions: Length: 635 mm (25 in,); width: 394 mm (15.5 in.) Weight: 8 lb)
thanks and regards
Croq
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Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
look through the images in Freydal there are some images in there.
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Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
You can use them while holding the straps in your fist, like a buckler.
When the shield is constructed right you can use it quite effectively like that.
There are some similar examples - this one has two horizontal bars that would hold strap and add some rigidity to the shield (I'm assuming these are orginal)
A very similar one is in Nuremberg, but you can't see the backside of it in the exhibition.
This one I posted quite a while ago in a thread about the construction of these "grooved" shields:
I could add a few more but that's not the point of the thread, I guess
I have no idea what the groove originaly was for. In Tom B.'s link you can see them strapped to an arm but considering that the same design was used with much larger shields that you could not strap to your arm I doubt that this is the intention for the groove. Some shields still exists that don't have a groove but are angled, I posted one of them.
The few extant grips are made from bovine leather or rawhide. Some reproductions use tightly wound rope an I used leather straps covered in rope (as a stand-in because I lacked the heavy gauge leather or rawhide used in the originals). As long as the grip is pretty stiff it does not seem to matter.
€dit: This original one uses a wood grip covered with leather!
When the shield is constructed right you can use it quite effectively like that.
There are some similar examples - this one has two horizontal bars that would hold strap and add some rigidity to the shield (I'm assuming these are orginal)
A very similar one is in Nuremberg, but you can't see the backside of it in the exhibition.
This one I posted quite a while ago in a thread about the construction of these "grooved" shields:
I could add a few more but that's not the point of the thread, I guess
I have no idea what the groove originaly was for. In Tom B.'s link you can see them strapped to an arm but considering that the same design was used with much larger shields that you could not strap to your arm I doubt that this is the intention for the groove. Some shields still exists that don't have a groove but are angled, I posted one of them.
The few extant grips are made from bovine leather or rawhide. Some reproductions use tightly wound rope an I used leather straps covered in rope (as a stand-in because I lacked the heavy gauge leather or rawhide used in the originals). As long as the grip is pretty stiff it does not seem to matter.
€dit: This original one uses a wood grip covered with leather!
Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
I have seen it said that the "Y" shaped handles are made of bovine leg tendon.
I have never examined one, but the shape is right and it seems quite plausible.
Mac
I have never examined one, but the shape is right and it seems quite plausible.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
A really common version of this grip, that shows up back in the Iron Age and was still being used in the 1800s, has two short cords or straps. You can grip them together and hold the shield like a buckler, or put your forearm through them and wear the shield like a targe or rotella. This solution lets you use the shield in different ways. Roland 'Dimicator' Warzecha has some photos and drawings of variants if you want inspiration.Croquart wrote:The grip material often seems to be bull pizzle or raw hide (on some there seems to be a wooden core, but not on all?). Therefore, it is probably flexible to some extend. Isn't this uncomfortable while fighting?
The version on the square target or hand pavise is stiffer but less versatile: you get a shield which you can only control in your fist, but it won't flop around unexpectedly.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
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Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
@ Mac: I've read that too - but never in the context of an extant shield, they always (afaik) just say "leather". But it certainly seems plausible.
Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
thanks for the replies!
How stiff do you think would those handles be? Quite stiff or more flexible like e.g. hard rope?
If you think, it's flexible to some degree. What would be the advantage? As Sean said flexible grips were commonly used on other shield types as well, where the solution lets you use the shield in different ways. However, on hand pavises I cannot guess a second use.
How stiff do you think would those handles be? Quite stiff or more flexible like e.g. hard rope?
If you think, it's flexible to some degree. What would be the advantage? As Sean said flexible grips were commonly used on other shield types as well, where the solution lets you use the shield in different ways. However, on hand pavises I cannot guess a second use.
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Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
A thick piece of cattle leg tendon, or any other thick rawhide, is going to become very stiff and inflexible as it dries out, although it might be advantageous to install it while it is fresh enough to be pliable. I think I've handled pieces of dried tendon sold at pet stores for dog chew toys, and they are basically not flexible, but with maybe enough give to be virtually unbreakable.
Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
This makes me think of the use of cuttings of cow sinew to reinforce shields. They seemed to be sprinkled over the face of the shield like gratings of cheese on a pizza.
http://www.atilf.fr/dmf/definition/nerver has an entry from the Song of Betrand de Guesculin where someone has a sinewed shield and a lance, I think the French treatise on military costume also mentions this in its description of jousting targets.
I think a few pavise-makers have experimented with these eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Rl9DLUfao Not sure who has tried the 'bull's pizzle' handles.
Edit: Julius Matthias Ronneberger, post to XV Century European Armour facebook group, 26 July 2020 https://www.facebook.com/groups/2238420386383150/permalink/3333328696892308/ thanks Tom B.
http://www.atilf.fr/dmf/definition/nerver has an entry from the Song of Betrand de Guesculin where someone has a sinewed shield and a lance, I think the French treatise on military costume also mentions this in its description of jousting targets.
I think a few pavise-makers have experimented with these eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Rl9DLUfao Not sure who has tried the 'bull's pizzle' handles.
Edit: Julius Matthias Ronneberger, post to XV Century European Armour facebook group, 26 July 2020 https://www.facebook.com/groups/2238420386383150/permalink/3333328696892308/ thanks Tom B.
(Two of roughly 4 images from post)OK, so until I can get some nice rivets, I used screws to fix the bull's pizzle as a grip on a pavese. So just for fixing purposes to see how the bull's pizzle does it's job. I stopped the trying with the tendon. It doesn't stay in shape as I put it, the bulk under the split is very annoying in the hand and in general it's very thin and has a tendency to 'split' lengthwise.
The shaping of the bull's pizzle was easy. I made it wet, I cut a bit were the folds were and split it then let it dry in that position. Then I soaked the lower part and bend it towards the shield. And also fixed it in that position. The diameter as a handgrip is perfect. Just how it is by nature... If you use a hammer grip or grips suited for buckler fencing as the shield needs to rotate. Tried it, works perfect. It's approx. 85%dried now, can still get slightly drier and therefore harder. When I get the rivets and change it, it should be fully dried. There is no bad smell anymore after the soaking and putting some soap in as well. So in my opinion Literature was correct, when they stated for some Paveses /Tartschen, the grips are made of bull's pizzle.
Last edited by Sean M on Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
I was very skeptical about this until more or less recently. A couple of years ago there was a discussion (somewhere.. ) on Face Book about it. I was maintaining that the extant material looked like bovine leg tendon, and that the bull pizzle was probably romantic bull shit. Then, someone (I can't remember who) showed how he has used bull penis for his shield handle. The result looked very much like the extant shield handles, and I was forced to concede.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: How do the grips of hand pavises work?
Julian Matthias Ronneberger's Post in XV Armour GroupMac wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 7:58 amI was very skeptical about this until more or less recently. A couple of years ago there was a discussion (somewhere.. ) on Face Book about it. I was maintaining that the extant material looked like bovine leg tendon, and that the bull pizzle was probably romantic bull shit. Then, someone (I can't remember who) showed how he has used bull penis for his shield handle. The result looked very much like the extant shield handles, and I was forced to concede.
Mac