Overgown with hanging sleeves from the Mac Bible

[David Teague]

Ok,

Fur for kings and other ranking nobles, but for us that don't want to be kings or nobles ... a contrasting cloth.... Right?

(Unless we can find smurf pelts?)

Cheers,

DT

[Black Swan Designs]

I agree that on some of these, the bit turned back seems to be lined with fur. I don't think that because some or even most of the people are wearing fur lined garments in this particular work that it is proof or even an indication that *all* gowns were lined with fur. Even this one- is it lined through the entire body? Just the skirt? What about the sleeves? It is very much guesswork and speculation regarding what is happening beyond the thin wedge of interior we see in the foldback.

The Mac bible is done in very much a "comic book" style. It is very stylized and simplified. I could point out scores of spots where what people are wearing or doing is not physically possible, or implausible from an engineering or physics standoint. I tried to look at all the material being presented and extrapolate a plausible garment based on what I know of period construction techniques, and what I felt the aesthetic was that the artist was trying to get across in what he chose to paint.

Gwen

[Karen Larsdatter]

Fur for kings and other ranking nobles, but for us that don't want to be kings or nobles ... a contrasting cloth.... Right?

It's not so much "kings and nobles" -- it can be either a main character in the narrative, or some dude off to the side. (Jacob and Lot aren't noblemen. I assume that the man in the gardecorps for the presentation of Samuel is actually Elkanah; I'd thought that the fella holding the crown while David is anointed is Jonathan, but I can't remember if he died before or after that bit. The fur-lined gardecorps appears on dudes off to the side in the wedding of David and Bathsheba, the flight of David, etc.

It's worth noting that fur linings do not appear on characters of humble means. The illustrator does not include fur linings on the clothing of beggars. David doesn't wear fur-lined garments when he's a shepherd-boy.

Kings and ladies in the Maciejowski Bible and other 13th century iconography are more likely to appear in a semicircular mantle, which is frequently fur-lined. (Once Saul becomes a king, he ditches his old blue gardecorps for the more kingly mantle.)

The illustrator isn't always consistent about who wears which garments, or which varieties of garments, though. Sometimes a character changes clothes as he travels from one side of an illustration to the other.

[David Teague]

Hello Karen,

You read too much into my early morning statement... what I was refering to ( nuk, nuk, nuk, ) was not the storyline of the Mac-Bible but using it to create clothing as a Living Historian who never is a noble, but of lower social standing. I.E. no fur for David... as in David TEAGUE, not David in the old testament.

Cheers,

DT

[Karen Larsdatter]

Well; again, it's hard to say. There was an interesting bit in -- darnit, which Laura Hodges book was I reading? -- but it was talking about fur-lined garments, and how there's plenty of sumptuary law that dictates who wears which garments, but there's overwhelming evidence that (at least in the 14th/15th century English contexts that she was primarily examining) there was quite a lot of evidence of furred garments worn by those whose station might not otherwise entitle them to such garments. (I want to say she'd referenced a record of a nun owning or wearing an ermine-lined hood, or somesuch.)

I think it comes down to two questions --
(1) Is it likely that a particular garment would be fur-lined? (Some outerwear, like gowns, mantles, etc., could be fur-lined, whereas garments that are meant to be worn under one's outerwear, like doublets, shirts, etc., apparently weren't.)
(2) Is it likely that the role which one is portraying would have possessed and/or worn a fur-lined garment? (There are certainly records of servants being left furred garments in their masters' wills, so a lower-class portrayal with a fur-lined garment is not completely out of the question. IIRC, fur linings tend to be more prevalent than embroidery, goldwork, pearls, etc. in northern European outerwear.)

And then, of course, there's also whatever personal or ethical feelings you may have towards the use of real fur. (It wasn't worth it to me to waste the money on real fur for the lining on my last project, especially since the outer fabric wasn't a exactly a triumph of historical accuracy anyway)

[David Teague]

Hello Karen,

I think if you toss in the dynamic social changes sweeping Europe during the 14th and 15th century (thanks to the Black Death), finding a fur lined garment being worn outside of the proper station set forth in the local sumptuary laws is not out of the question. It's just I don't think it would be a common thing during the 1200's with the way society was at the height of the feudal system.

Those with lands and an income from them, sure, but the serf working the field or the part time farmer/ soldier...

I not saying Lord Such-n-Such might not equip his staff and servants with fur lined gardecorps for travel and show of his wealth, it just at that time in England (and Scotland), most people were of humble means and would have a simple wool one IMO.
Cheers,

DT

[Tailoress]

David, here's a link to addall.com, where there are four copies of a very useful book -- Elspeth Veale's The English Fur Trade in the Later Middle Ages:

http://tinyurl.com/a5g75

This will go a long way to giving you the confidence you need in selecting what, if any, fur you'd use on your portrayal. It really is a wealth of scholarly information on the subject. It's pricey though, and can probably also be ILL'd a lot cheaper or for free.

Veale clearly documents the various types of fur, as well as pattern names for various combinations of colors. The original Mac Bible image on this thread is miniver, not vair. (Nor is it "pured miniver", which would be a lot harder to distinguish from other all-white furs, like lettice.) Vair alternates dark and light backs and bellies. Miniver is just light belly, with dark from the rest of the pelt showing around the edge of each belly.

-Tasha

[Tracy Justus]

Looks nice. It's good to see a vendor providing 13th century wares- they tend to be underrepresented in the marketplace.

Interesting choice of pattern layout- I would not have thought of doing it that way.

Clare

[Charlotte J]

I've heard that the Veale book has been reprinted, you might try http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/lrs/LRSpubs.html for more information. Of course, that just gets my goat, because I found the reprint after I paid $80 for it used...

David, I think you might find that a surprising cross section of society wore furs. Now, *what furs* are important, as you are correct in assuming, but I don't think you should assume that somebody of a lower station wouldn't wear fur at all. How humble are you talking? Serf, no, probably not? Yeoman, maybe? Admittedly, I don't know as much about the social structure high middle ages as the later...

Gwen, the gown looks nice. My opinion of the point... I think it's just artistic convention to show that those two pieces of fabric are overlapping. The downward points are on the undertunic anyway. On the outergarment, the edges curve up, what I think is the artists convention of showing the fabric folded out. That's just what I'm seeing though, from this one image, and I haven't made a full out study of this garment at all.

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

I don't care what it should be lined with, I'm getting one, they're awesome looking. Gwen, thanks for making some new early period pieces. That new mac bible tunic is just fabulous too. When will photos of the hoods be up?

[carlyle]

Very nice, Gwen. I see that I'm going to have to start making out my Christmas list early... AoC

[Fire Stryker]

I think we're overthinking the fur thing. Not all of the images have people with fur lined garments and we can only really speculate on the artist's intent in regard to the opposing colors. I think it's a lovely interpretation of the document.

It's early for me, but I still think Gwen did a really nice job and as she said in an earlier post, she can line it with whatever the customer desires .

[Tailoress]

I think we're overthinking the fur thing.

Probably!

My comments concerning fur weren't really in relation to Gwen's interpretation of the surcotte from the Mac Bible so much as it was general commentary on the use of fur for surcottes in this time period. I doubt that clothiers can offer fur-lined garments for less than a mint in most cases. The stuff is dang expensive and it's something of a lost art, sewing skins together properly.

-Tasha

[Teffania]

Since everyone is discussing the garment, I'm wondering if anyone has worked out how to do the buttoned diagonal slit neckline?

I've looked at the external link provided above that shows the neckline on a diagram, but can't make head nor tail of it.

Is it just a slit and the lining makes it all sit right. It does look like it overlaps the fabric to me, but how to do that without distorting the shape of te garment from symmetrical, or adding extra pieces?

This is the finishing detail I need for a garment to lend to new people to reenactment. I figure we might as well start twisting their perceptions with things like hanging sleeves at the start. Besides, they will have more options for coping with different temperatures.

Teffania

[Karen Larsdatter]

Teffania, I think they're suggesting that you make the gardecorps so that there's a seam down the middle, and that the neckline is cut with an extra flappy bit on one side (that's overlapping the fabric on the other side), if that makes sense.

[Teffania]

Thanks, That makes sense. It was what was puzzling me.

Now I am inspired to more questions:
*is this the only way people have postulated to make such a neckline?
*Does such a neckline therefore imply a centre seam?
*Is there any other evidence of centre seams on the garment, or this time period? (eg the points on the front bottom edge)

I'm fairly familiar with medieval tailoring techniques, but this is a couple of centuries later than I specialise in (where centre seams would be laughable).

[Karen Larsdatter]

*is this the only way people have postulated to make such a neckline?

There haven't been an overabundance of postulations on this particular garment, but for similar sorts of necklines (in terms of the slanted/side-opening) in different treatments, you could also look at some of the Mongolian and Chinese garments (like this Mongolian robe), or the way that the Viborg shirt works, maybe.

*Does such a neckline therefore imply a centre seam?

Nah; it could have seams anywhere. It clearly has a seam somewhere. It didn't come off the loom this way.

*Is there any other evidence of centre seams on the garment, or this time period? (eg the points on the front bottom edge)

The Chelles shirt has a center seam. So does the Söderköping tunic and Ronbjerg tunic.

I'd have to think that the particolored garments seen on musicians in the Maciejowski Bible had center seams, too, since they're (apparently) two different fabrics:
http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac17rA.jpg
http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac29rA.jpg
And they'd have to be contemporary with the gardecorps in the Maciejowski Bible, right?

[Tailoress]

The Chelles shirt has a center seam.

Wow. That pattern sure shoots Occam's Razor all to hell.

-Tasha

[BdeB]

Gwen,

One thing I’ve noticed about your gardecorps is that the cut at the bottom of the sleeve doesn't seem to be as deep as in the pictures. Did you make this choice based on design once you made them or was it an aesthetic choice? Thanks so much for doing this period. You and your company are inspirational, as always!

[Black Swan Designs]

Hi Bdb-

Do you mean the armhole doesn't look as deep? Dunno, if there was any actual intent there, as it was an arbitrary choice how deep to make the armhole. Depth of armhole in depictions varied, so I chose to make it about as big as the armhole on the undergown, which ended up being sort of mid chest or slightly lower.

My model is wearing the "One size" prototype. Had I known he was 6'4" tall when I was prepping the clothes for the photo shoot, I probably would have put him in the "Large" size instead. I think the Large would have been better proportioned for a guy his size. The hem on a Large would have been a bit longer and the armhole a bit deeper.

Does that answer the question? I'm doing this pre-coffee and am a bit foggy yet. *yawn*

Gwen

[BdeB]

Gwen,

Yes thank you very much, knowing the size difference of the model helps it to make a lot more sense. My wife and I argue about this garment alot though neither of us have made one yet. Can't wait to see this in person at Pennsic. Thanks so much for the reply!

[Black Swan Designs]

Do you mind me asking what you "argue" about? I'm always interested in knowing how other people see things.

Gwen

[BdeB]

Basically wheither the arm slits are under the sleeves or in the front of the garment. In some pictures it is very clear that they are under the arm pit and in some they appear to be closer to the chest.

Melisent argues the practicial point that it makes more sense for wear and use for the slits to be directly under the arm pits like in your garment.

I know she is most likely right, but I can't help by be drawn back to several of the pictures where the slits really seem to be somewhere closer to the chest...I know i'm wrong (shhh don't tell her) but it is too much fun to get her worked up about it!

Much like women's undergarments (I happen to agree with her and you that it is impractical to believe that they wore nothing there...but I love poking her about them...it's a weakness! "But what about Tiger Holmes I say?" and I get to watch her head spin off... )

[Black Swan Designs]

But wait.... I'm in the "there is little indication that women wore underpants" group, "not the "but they must have worn something" group.

I will say the excerpt from the rape trial is pretty tempting information though.....

As for the slit, it makes more sense from a construction stance to have it on the side seam. Regardless of where it appears in the drawing, the Mac Bible is just a cartoon after all. Popeye's muscles couldn't be that big, and neither could Betty Boop's...well, you get the idea.

Gwen

[Karen Larsdatter]

IIRC, there's some additional references to a linen undergarment (apparently something like braies) worn by a young woman described in the Cathar heresy trials, but there's a few pictures of a skirt-like (or perhaps more like culottes?) linen undergarment in some 15th century illustrations ... I've posted a longer list of these elsewhere, but I don't think I've posted 'em here yet.

Naked couple embracing from Augustine's Cité de Dieu illuminated c. 1475-1480 (MMW 10 A 11, fol. 312v)
The martyrdom of Saint Christine (BNF Fr 244, fol. 207v) and the martyrdom of St. Euphemia (BNF Fr 245, fol. 102) in a 15th century ms of the Golden Legend

[Black Swan Designs]

*Very* interesting! Whatever it is, it's clearly not shaped like standard men's breeches/braies/underpants, that's for sure.

Do you have info on who the couple is supposed to be? If she's a saint as well, a case could be made for this being a modesty drape of sorts, rather than a depiction of an existing undergarment. Christ is often depicted with a random bit of cloth draped around his hips for the same reason. Breasts aren't the naughty bits in this period but genitalia is- that's probably why the young man has his braies on.

And look- yet another image of a woman with her smock exposed, without her pin on sleeves!!!! Perfect dating too. I'll have to add it to the survey I'm doing. I knew there had to be a gajillion out there that I just didn't know about.

But wait, that's another thread, isn't it?

Gwen

[Karen Larsdatter]

Do you have info on who the couple is supposed to be?

The full caption for that illustration is: "Woman in bed; naked couple embracing; Janus appears first at the moment of conception, after the tasks are divided among deities; between them Saturn and Juno (background)."

The culotte-linens seem to appear as a parallel to men's braies here and in other 15th century martyrdom scenes; elsewhere in all of these manuscripts are nudes (male and female), so I don't think it's simply there for the sake of modesty.

Aha -- found some of the other illos in a 15th century ms of Speculum historiale (BNF Fr. 50 & 51) -- the martyrdoms of St. Thecla, St. Valerie, St. Hope & St. Charity, St. Julitta, St. Martina, St. Agatha, St. Basilla & St. Eugenia, St. Christine, St. Eulalia, St. Fausta, St. Lucy, St. Margaret, and St. Denise.

And look- yet another image of a woman with her smock exposed, without her pin on sleeves!!!! Perfect dating too. I'll have to add it to the survey I'm doing. I knew there had to be a gajillion out there that I just didn't know about.

It's an interesting example of maternity-wear, isn't it? I'm not sure whether she's en deshabillé due to her condition, or whether it was how she'd have dressed anyway.

[Black Swan Designs]

The last 3 images didn't come up, but I take your point. Unless you can find some on non-saints, I'd say there's a stong case for the white hula skirt to be a female saint specific garment.

Dunno about the pregnant lady- Portinari's daughter is wearing a gown that's open in front in the Portinari Triptych by van der Goes.

Gwen

[Karen Larsdatter]

The last 3 images didn't come up, but I take your point. Unless you can find some on non-saints, I'd say there's a stong case for the white hula skirt to be a female saint specific garment.

Ah -- wasn't sure if I'd made that clear -- this chick is no saint.

The long and short of it is that I've seen this undergarment in three different late 15th century French documents, apparently as a female equivalent to men's breeches/braies; and two of those documents are on the lives of saints.

[Tailoress]

This is way too interesting for it not to be a separate thread, and probably in the Historical section. Maybe Glen can take the pieces from this braies off-shoot and stick them in a new thread on Historical?

-Tasha

[Black Swan Designs]

OK, got it. But that's still evidence weighted in the direction of it being a saint-specific (or at least saint inspired) garment, dontcha think?

I'd say the body of evidence as presented gives that theory as much weight as Charlotte's claims that pin on sleeves are directly associated with Mary Magdalene. At least with the sleeves, we have loads of images of regular old women wearing them. Here, we have a boatload of saints and one regular woman who just happens to be having sex in front Saturn and Juno. Now I don't know about you, but Saturn and Juno have never appeared when I've have sex, so I have to assume there is something allegorical or supernatural about the image. Maybe it's the moment of conception of a saint?

Not grasping here, just trying to be objective and get all the facts.

Gwen

[Guy Dawkins]

Now I don't know about you, but Saturn and Juno have never appeared when I've have sex,
Gwen

Don't tell Jeff.

You know how fragile our egos are.

[Black Swan Designs]

Shhhhh... it will be a secret between me and 5,000 of my closest friends....

Good one David!

Gwen

[Karen Larsdatter]

Now I don't know about you, but Saturn and Juno have never appeared when I've have sex, so I have to assume there is something allegorical or supernatural about the image. Maybe it's the moment of conception of a saint?

No, it's far more generic; in this section, St. Augustine is just describing the theories about the conception of children in general. See chapter two of <a href="http://www.hismercy.ca/content/ebooks/City.of.God-St. Augustine/book07.html">Book VII of The City of God</a>.

In terms of another non-saintly appearance of the undergarment, check out the naughty little outfit that the dancing girl is wearing in the foreground of the St. Josaphat illustration, also in the Speculum Historiale (BNF Fr. 51, fol. 171). At least, it sure looks to me like she's wearing the same sorta underwear as the female saints in the Speculum Historiale & Golden Legend, and the baby-momma in the City of God.

[Black Swan Designs]

City of God seems to have been moved, so I couldn't take a look. Bummer.

That dance getup is pretty exotic. Have you found the hula skirt in any ordinary, everyday, secular, not weird setting? Maybe a woman bathing, domestic interior- even a fountain of life thing would be OK. I'd sure like to see it in an image that doesn't have "St." somewhere in the title....

Gwen