LH Persona Hunt... What am I doing?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

'Ello folks,

How's everyone doin' today? I got to stay home from school because I had a physical examination for sports this semester, and almost fainted when I had my blood drawn! Ha! So, I've been on the archive all day, and figured that posting a thread askin' for some advice and opinions wouldn't hurt.

As soon as my soft kit and sword/shield for SCA combat is finished, and my leather armor from Dan is all in or paid for, I plan on taking a break from that project before I have some kind of heart attack over the stress of doing a single kit with such slow results!

On my off-time, you could say, I'll be getting together a continental infantry or archer kit for living history events (such as the one Jehan and company will be putting on next summer) dating to the latter half of the 15th century.

Because I'm now working on weekends, I'm not afraid of putting about $1,000 into this kit, although I won't be able to afford custom armor, since the clothing will likely drain my funds enough! Here's what I know I want:

-Hosen with two colors (one for each leg)!
-Colorful doublet!
-Nice undershirt/braies!
-Knee-length boots!
-Belt and other accessories from Historic Enterprises!
-One of these: >>>
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... &p=116&c=7

And that's about all I've decided on, for sure... You can tell how enthusiastic I am about those parts of the outfit, huh?

I'd like to have no additional protection of the legs, with just the boots on. I would also want to have a helmet! I'm pretty sure I'd like a wildly painted, visored sallet. Body armor will most likely be a jack, with jack chains on it. I'd like it tight-fitting (or as unloose) as they came! I have no idea what kind of weapons I'd like...

My main question, besides asking for options about where I can obtain this stuff or what other kind of things I can use in place of things I'm not sure of, is what should I be portraying?

I was thinking along the lines of a later 15th century Swiss mercenary, or maybe even an Italian or German. I'm not really sure! I know the one example of a painted sallet that I've seen is German for a light cavalryman and dates to about 1490. Could they have been painted earlier, or for infantry, feasibly?

Thanks for any input!

-Gregory-

[Thomas H]

Will this be for the SCA? if not, this is what i'm doing for my LH WoTR kit so gauge what you neeed from that:

Raised 'archers' sallet, like one in the Wallace collection, with cheek plates, sort of, butmostly an open face.

Black joined hose pointed to a pourpoint, made of two layers of linen over which will be a 30 layer linen jack, possibly with leather on the outside, still seeing how much movement it'll give. Some kind of low shoe, basically, something i won't trip over in
I'd suggest keeping away from thigh boots unless you're riding.
Other typical gubbins, belt, pouch, rondel dagger etc.

Rivetted standard and fauld, from GDFB (or HE for you)

Jack chains of my own creation

Yew longbow of my own creation, because i still can't come to terms with spending £800 on a bow

That's about it, other than an interchangable breastplate for when it's just too much to wear a jack. likely similar in style to the munition grade ones at Churburg castle. I'd also use a crossbow and pavise rather than the longbow if i were to use a breastplate. I may just wear a thigh length front opening mail shirt rather than breastplate or jack. lots of options


Hope that helps you somewhat, this is around 1470 i'd say...

[Jehan de Pelham]

Gregory, it's totally awesome that you're into doing an archer portrayal. I think that this sort of portrayal is one of the best ones to do, because it doesn't require such an investment as a man at arms portrayal does, and the archer was a more common sight on the battlefield than a man at arms, to my mind.

I think you're going in the right direction though I would have to agree that the thigh boots are an un-necessary investment--basically, it's fairly agreed that these are riding boots and if you don't have a horse it really doesn't matter--I suppose the same argument could be made for the armored man at arms, too, so do as you want but know that you could get by with a less expensive pair of nice ankle high shoes.

As for weapons, I suggest these articles, in this order:

Bow, made of yew, ash, or witch elm, with at least six proper arrows.
Ballock, baselard, or rondel dagger.
Sword or Falchion of simple, soldierly design adhering to your chosen era.

Are you looking to come to this event in 2007? If you are, you'll want to get yourself a plate, a bowl, a cup, and a set of dining utensils at a minimum for non clothing kit. The camping gear isn't as important as we plan provision for a modern camp out of sight from the medieval tableaux but within walking distance (maybe 300-500 meters distant, depending on terrain).

As far as the painted helmets go, I don't know. Someone else will have to answer!

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Hey Thomas,

Thanks for the reply. No, it won't be for the SCA. Can you get me a picture of the sallet you're talking about. I can't think of one with cheek plates, or the like. It sounds very interesting! I THINK I might know what you mean, but it's very different than most sallets.

Your other ideas all sound splendid! Not quite the route I imagine myself taking, but I'll be eager to see your kit when it's done! Especially the jack!

Jehan,

Although I was planning on knee-high boots, the cost difference has convinced me that ankle-high ones from HE will suffice! I've got to get to school, but I'll mention I still haven't QUITE decided between doing an infantryman and an archer. I really like the idea of carrying a glaive or halberd around, too!

Cheers, guys!

-Gregory-

[Jeff J]

There are a couple of very good LH 15th archers up in Quebec. Chef could probably give you a contact.

I also know a woman up there who can probably sew stuff for you. Want her info?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

One last quick post... Jeff, I'd definitely appreciate the information for her! If HE custom orders are too much, I'll have to find another route. Thanks!

-Gregory-

[Thomas H]

Greg, it's A77. http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... eziana.jpg

The hinge is believed to be a later addition/alteration. Either way, it'll be solid on mine.

The jack could be a while, i'm sewing it by hand

[Jeff J]

Ah - rats - I mis-read your location. She's in another state.

Tim Finkas also has a great archer kit, and archer friends in CA, but I think they are down by LA.

[Thomas H]

Greg, as a warning, your budget could likely be blown if you were to get a Jack made by someone else. the padded armour comapny over here sell theres for around a grand a piece (£).

[James B.]

Gregory

What time frame and country are you thinking of portraying? Styles vary, for instance the HE fringed hood is a popular German/Swiss item seen in many wood cuts and some paintings but I have not found anything like it in the French, Flemish, or tiny amount of English art from the 1460s to 1480s which I am interested in.

For footwear I would stick with ankle boots or shoes unless you are portraying a mounted archer.

On Jacks I tend to stick with either the 10 layers of linen with a maille shirt or 25 layers of linen and a stag skin or 30 layers of linen like Thomas posted. I have a document I wrote for and SCA competition I can send you if you are interested. I am altering a GDFB maille shirt for under my 15 layer jack.

For a bow the best price I know is http://www.ancientarchery.com/ and ash bow runs about $375

As far as daggers and swords are concerned Jehan covered that well.

If you want to check out Grey's archers standards here is the link:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Standards/archer.htm

Welcome to the rank and file

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/LordGreys/MTA05/full/PICT0023.jpg[/img]

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Was it just the English that carried buckler and shortsword for once they closed? Before I switched to Crusader, I started looking a an English Agincourt persona, and I seem to remember someone posting that a buckler and shortsword were pretty standard as well as the rondel dagger. Greg, go for it man! Live the dream as much as you can. Hey Jehan, if mundane tents are allowed, I might be able to scrape enough by to attend (bliauts just went down in social class until around the 14th century). This sounds really cool and I would love to attend but dont want to ruin the whole atmosphere with something that is too early.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Oswyn, not to hijack Greg's thread too much, but yeah, the idea is that there will be a high fidelity tableaux and a modern camp.

The high fidelity tableaux is where you leave EVERYTHING modern or not faithful to medieval models feasible for a presentation of the era from 1300-1500 behind.

For those who cannot manage a tent, in addition to what for many might be a whole new kit, there would be provision for a "modern ghetto" within walking distance but out of sight of the high fidelity tableaux where modern tents can be set up, RVs can be parked, etc. This gives people a chance to come who might not be able to do it otherwise.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Hey Thomas,

I would probably get a jack from Matuls (www.matuls.pl) where they sell this:

http://www.matuls.pl/english/english.html

In 20 layers for 370 Euro, or 30 layers for 440 Euro.

James,

I'm definitely planning on doing continental, as I mentioned, and will likely go with a Swiss/German look. This is because I'll continue to use the name Liebau in my portrayal, and there seems to be a lack of guys who shy away from the French or English stuff. I may be wrong, but that's what I've gathered.

The armor is definitely still in idea form, although a simple jack made from linen only will probably be my best option. Got to get to class!

Cheers!

-Gregory-

[Thomas H]

it's nice, don't get me wrong but i know if i do it myself, i can get it looking almost exactly like the description and the paintings. If you can get hold of an industrial leather sewing machine, i bet you could do it yourself with overly loads of work.

[James B.]

Doh! I Missed where you said continental.

Here is some clothing images from German artists:

[img]http://www.wga.hu/art/p/paur/martyrdo.jpg[/img]

PAUR, Hans
The Martyrdom of St Sebastian
c. 1472
Woodcut, hand-coloured, 255 x 182 mm
Staatliche Graphische Sammlung, Munich

(Actully it is at the National Art Museum in DC on tour right now, I went to that exibit a month ago)

[img]http://www.wga.hu/art/s/stoss/2closed/8peter.jpg[/img]

High Altar of St Mary (Apostle Peter and Malchus)
1477-89
Wood
Church of St. Mary, Cracow


I know there are some good woodcuts in the Osprey Swiss books that cover this era also.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Falchions!

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Thomas H]

Jehan has a point, Falchions are good

[Jehan de Pelham]

The thing about the falchion is that it is an iconographically distinctive peice of equipment. One doesn't see effigies of knightly men at arms or lords with falchions, but one does see illustrations of common men at arms and archers with them. One more specific peice of the puzzle that defines the portrayal.

And then you'll end up answering the question "Is that a skimitar?" With "No, it's a falchion," and you can describe the difference.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[James B.]

Well you don't OFTEN see knights with falchions :

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/fromLeChevalierDeliebre1486.jpg[/img]

[Murdock]

Actually James

not to be a shmuck

But judging from the armour worn and blade profile i'd bet thats technically a Grosse Messer (sp?) not a falchion.


But one bug hacky cleavers as good as another.

[Thomas H]

Actually James

Grosse Messer

Isn't that just big knife in German?

[Murdock]

Yup

Germans are poetic that way

Autobahn means "car path" accordin to the German wife.

[Thomas H]

Cool

[Konstantin the Red]

Though of course the German way with coining just-perfect names for martial equipment has been admired since at least Oakeshott, if not Ffoulkes.

Parierhaken, Sturmgewehr...