WOW! Awesome Reproduction gun kits!

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Rittmeister Frye
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Rod Walker wrote:
No Sir, Damn You! :D I desperatly wanted the Remington Revolving Carbine but can you believe they are a Prohibited Weapon in my home state!!!!! They are so elegant and sexy looking.

I can go and buy what is effectively a .50cal sniper rifle at my local gunshop but an 1860's revolving percussion cap carbine I cannot have.

My God but there are some wankers in charge.


I guess we can go to Hell together then, and have a bully time, what? 8)

I have to say that you're right, there are some serious wankers in charge of both of our countries. That's about the weirdest thing ever though, making a caplock revolving carbine (with a 16" barrel, no less!) "prohibited" while a .50 BMG rifle is not. THAT is weird... Oh well, a smooth-bore revolver (pistol) here would earn you the same jail term as a full-auto machinegun, so I guess we have our own set of wankers past and present to contend with.

Too weird.

On the other hand, I still want my Revolving Carbine! :D

Cheers!

Gordon
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before the zombiephobes outlaw necromancy!

Post by Karl Helweg »

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/hand_gonnes.htm

Two tempting hand-gonne kits from The Rifle Shoppe.
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Post by Maeryk »

Thanks for dredging this up! I like the Hachenbusse (and a railroad spike, polished and set in the stock, makes a _perfect_ hook).

but what is really intriguing me is their matchlocks, specifically the snaphaunce.. Hmmmm.
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Post by mordreth »

Thomas Powers wrote:My reading said that wheelocks were preferred for hunting as they were "faster" ignition than a flintlock.

I bought a repro wheelock back in the mid 1980's and no other gun has given me such an overwhelming urge to draw, point and say "Stand and Deliver"

Thomas


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Sweat in the tiltyard, or bleed on the field.
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Post by Gerhard von Liebau »

I looked at the title of this thread and thought "Cool, this is just the type of thing I'd look at!"

Then the crickets chirped.

In any case, it's funny that this pops up right now. I've actually been looking around for inspiration for my 16th century SCA persona... From everything between the soft kit, armor and appropriate arms I've been trying to make up my mind about things!

The gun possibilities (since I do love guns) should serve well for me to try to make up my mind! Does anyone know if John Buck at Musket Mart is still in business? His site's up... Seems like the sort of fellow I'd trust to make me a gun.

-Gregory
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Does anyone know if John Buck at Musket Mart is still in business? His site's up... Seems like the sort of fellow I'd trust to make me a gun.

-Gregory


He is, and he is. I've known John for years, and chat with him occasionally about stuff. He's a good fellow. Makes a good solid matchlock arquebus or musket too. There are a few better makers out there but they charge a lot more and take a lot more time too. John delivers a good solid product on time, at a very reasonable price.

Cheers!

Gordon
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Post by Vermin »

You know, if you had ordered a TRS kit back when this thread started, you'd now probably only have a month or so before your order got shipped.....

If you're lucky, of course.
"As far as setting down a drinking horn, historical records show that proper Viking etiquette was to simply jam the pointy end into the nearest non-Germanic person should one need his hands free...
y'know, if you had to pee....."
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Post by Chris Gilman »

I was looking at these kits as well. I'm glad I didn't buy one. It sounds like almost the same amount of work to just get raw stock and build your own.
This is what I started instead of buying one of those kits. (Mainly because I wanted a self-spanning lock)
Image

I read an article in “Art, Arms and Armour; an international anthologyâ€
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

That is awesome, Chris! Yes, if you get around to it I would love to see a photo of the parts with a ruler laid next to it.

I have "Art, Arms and Armour" and have many times over the years drooled over the self-spanning locks. A tad late for my era of interest, as they're what, 1630's or so? But still enormously cool. Even more so that you made up a set of them! I hope that you get your interest re-ignited ( :) ) and complete the pistol-carbine set. It might not out-cool the Max or B&W armours, but it would be pretty darned close. 8)

Cheers!

Gordon
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hand gonnes

Post by Karl Helweg »

Maeryk wrote:Thanks for dredging this up! I like the Hachenbusse (and a railroad spike, polished and set in the stock, makes a _perfect_ hook).

but what is really intriguing me is their matchlocks, specifically the snaphaunce.. Hmmmm.


A snaphaunce has not made it on to my wish list yet. Please let me know how one works out for you.

Vermin - when and what did you order?

Does anyone have other sources for hand gonnes besides TRS? Kits or complete?
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Post by Vermin »

I didn't make an order, too many horror stories....:wink:

I have a friend STILL waiting on a Miquelet lock he ordered....3 years now....

My boss has had 2 year waits on orders, and after that, some things are still on backorder.
"As far as setting down a drinking horn, historical records show that proper Viking etiquette was to simply jam the pointy end into the nearest non-Germanic person should one need his hands free...
y'know, if you had to pee....."
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Maeryk wrote:but what is really intriguing me is their matchlocks, specifically the snaphaunce.. Hmmmm.


Maeryk;

Do you mean a snapping matchlock? Those are actually super easy to build yourself, and you certainly have the skills to do so. I made one years ago just cutting out pieces of flat stock with a hacksaw and a mill file, and a hand drill. I used part of a Mauser magazine spring for the mainspring, as it provides sufficient force to drive the cock forward without snuffing out the match. I used a piece of hacksaw for the button trigger's spring, and a rivet for the button trigger. It mates with the sear which holds the tail of the cock in place. All very, very simple, and probably the dominant form of lock until the 1550's or so.

If you meant a snaphaunce-style flint-ignition lock, then John Buck is in fact making them now, even if they're not on his site (musketmart.com). I think he does have one up now, though.

Cheers!

Gordon
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Post by Maeryk »

Rittmeister Frye wrote:
Maeryk wrote:but what is really intriguing me is their matchlocks, specifically the snaphaunce.. Hmmmm.


Maeryk;

Do you mean a snapping matchlock? Those are actually super easy to build yourself, and you certainly have the skills to do so. I made one years ago just cutting out pieces of flat stock with a hacksaw and a mill file, and a hand drill. I used part of a Mauser magazine spring for the mainspring, as it provides sufficient force to drive the cock forward without snuffing out the match. I used a piece of hacksaw for the button trigger's spring, and a rivet for the button trigger. It mates with the sear which holds the tail of the cock in place. All very, very simple, and probably the dominant form of lock until the 1550's or so.

If you meant a snaphaunce-style flint-ignition lock, then John Buck is in fact making them now, even if they're not on his site (musketmart.com). I think he does have one up now, though.

Cheers!

Gordon


Yes, I meant the former, rather than the latter. A couple of guys near here have built a few already.

I'm just REALLY groovin on the wall-gun barrel the guy has. If he actually HAS ONE IN STOCK I'm buying it tomorrow.

Keep in mind, I live about ten miles from here: http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php
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Re: hand gonnes

Post by chef de chambre »

Karl Helweg wrote:
Maeryk wrote:Thanks for dredging this up! I like the Hachenbusse (and a railroad spike, polished and set in the stock, makes a _perfect_ hook).

but what is really intriguing me is their matchlocks, specifically the snaphaunce.. Hmmmm.


A snaphaunce has not made it on to my wish list yet. Please let me know how one works out for you.

Vermin - when and what did you order?

Does anyone have other sources for hand gonnes besides TRS? Kits or complete?


I have to say, the TRS kits are usually in stock, and ship fast - I have their hakenbusch, which is our representative of an earlier 15th century gun. It is the oddball stuff they are usually reliant on somebody else to make that can screw you over.

The Irish Lock and Musket company had some machined barrels, but they are out of business.

John Buck is excellent, and he is making us two guns - a bronze barreled buttonlock arquebus, and a breech-loading culverin au-main, with two chambers. He can do a lot, limited only by your wallet.
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Post by Maeryk »

Chef.. can you PM me details on the Culverin, like size, and cost?
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Maeryk wrote:I'm just REALLY groovin on the wall-gun barrel the guy has. If he actually HAS ONE IN STOCK I'm buying it tomorrow.


Now THAT is cool! Excellent! A friend of mine has a wheellock wall gun that he picked up recently, and it's frigging HUGE! Taller than he is, and he's not particularly short. Those things are awesome, and with your rest, you could do a wicked proto-mosquetier, ca. 1520. Awesome...! Good luck on that project, and I look forward to photos!

Cheers!

Gordon
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Post by Gerhard von Liebau »

Well, after reviewing my expected financial status for the next couple of terms, I made a big choice last night that will cost me the luxury of someone else making me a matchlock...

I cut up my credit card! So now I have a $3,800 debt to it and no way to spend the money I pay it off with... So I'm a few months down the road from having any spending money.

Probably best though, I can spend time making some cool shit!

-Gregory
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Post by Jeff J »

Maeryk wrote:I'm just REALLY groovin on the wall-gun barrel the guy has. If he actually HAS ONE IN STOCK I'm buying it tomorrow.
http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php


Not the sort of thing a guy stocks. I believe he's only made one of those wall guns, for Rick Orli's (Polish hussar). It's funny, the wall gun is massive and Rick is, like, 5'-7".

In his spare moments between making stuff for Chef, John's also making a 1-gauge hackbut based on one I saw in het Gravensteen in Belgium.
BONANZA!!!
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Post by Vermin »

John has gotten a good bit of information from my boss at the conservation lab where I work.
I've seen pics of copies he's done from matchlocks in our collection.

Nice work.

I'm working on a chunk of barrel from the San Martin wreck (Green Cabin, 8IR22) right now, this thing is a monster at the breech....staked on truncated tube sight, but no markings on any of the flats.
I'd like to be able to get the breech plug out, but I wouldn't bet money on that happening.... :sad:
"As far as setting down a drinking horn, historical records show that proper Viking etiquette was to simply jam the pointy end into the nearest non-Germanic person should one need his hands free...
y'know, if you had to pee....."
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Hey Vermin;

I had a long chat with John about those barrels you fellows pulled up. HUGE, even in the arquebus calibre. It makes me annoyed that I sold off my German-made matchlock, which had an arquebus bore (20 ga.) but more like musket weight. I guess it was authentic after all! Dang! Shows what happens when you over think things too much.

What is interesting in your barrels is how the pans were dovetailed into the side of the barrel, rather than brazed or soldered on like most matchlock barrels are. Very interesting stuff you fellows are dredging up there! Good luck, and find more cool stuff for us!

Cheers!

Gordon
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Post by Vermin »

Some of the barrels we sent information to John about aren't ours.
We do contract work from time to time.
Some of those barrels were from the Rincon wreck, we did them for Puerto Rico.
But yeah, the bores on those things are...well...I can stick my thumb in the end, and it doesn't touch the sides of the barrel anywhere....
And the breech ends are MASSIVE.
We managed to get the breech plugs out of those as well, which was a plus for conserving them, and the threads were almost perfect.

Did John talk to you about the matchlock where the ramrod goes into the stock like a "modern" musket (but without an entry ramrod pipe)?
It's the one he did a repro lock of on his page, the one with the shaped lockplate ends.
We don't have the lock, just some of the barrel, but we know what the lockplate looks like from the stock.
You can still see all the chisel marks in the lock cavity too, pretty neat.

I'm in the process of making one similar to that.

If you're ever down this way, let me know.
I will show you things that will put a big old smile on your face.
I can hook you up with the white gloves, but you gotta bring your own drool rag! :lol:
"As far as setting down a drinking horn, historical records show that proper Viking etiquette was to simply jam the pointy end into the nearest non-Germanic person should one need his hands free...
y'know, if you had to pee....."
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Vermin;

I'll definitely give you a call if I get down your way, that would be GREAT to see some of that stuff! And yes, I'll bring a drool rag. Several, in fact!

I do recall him mentioning the more"modern" style of rammer channel on one of them. He said that there are a lot of strange features that are coming out of the woodwork, so to speak, with some of these recovered wreck pieces. It's nice because you can pretty well date them to an exact time and place without having to fudge the details. It's nice to know that there ARE such pieces out there, since my Bastard Musket that Dale Shinn made a LONG time ago has that sort of rammer channel, before he discovered the more common method of making them in the period. Funny how some things that we "know" we later discover that we really don't. As the wise man said, "It isn't what you don't know that's the problem: it's what you do know, but is wrong, that is the problem."

Thanks for correcting me on the barrel info too. Good to know the proper provenance of these things.

Cheers!

Gordon
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Post by Vermin »

" Funny how some things that we "know" we later discover that we really don't. "

Yeah, we've got some recent info on trade muskets that prove that fact nicely.
Hamilton's book on trade guns is really nice, and a FINE research tool, but some of the info in it is kinda dated.

A few years back we got a type G trade gun in from a local river diver, it was in pretty good condition considering the circumstances.
While I was cleaning the lock I saw "WIL..." engraved in the plate.
No biggie, Wilson did a TON of them....we knew that.
But, once I started cleaning further, a piece of concretion flecked off and it WASN'T Wilson on the lockplate, it was Williams.

Did some digging on that and found out he had a contract with the Hudson Bay Company.
Now, Florida is sorta away from their area, so I wrote some letters because I wanted to know whether HBC imported guns as a broker, or if they were strictly for their own use.
They weren't brokers....
Williams only did guns for a short period of time, in fact, he died and his wife finished out the contract after he passed on.
He was producing guns for HBC from 1715 to 1735.
His wife Anne (and his son Thomas) did the contracts from 1738 to 1744.

This gun has an ODD early serpent sideplate.
In Hamilton's book, on page 67 there's a collection of sideplates.
A and B are from Ft. Frederica (1736 - 1743).
Our sideplate is identical to B, except that the head of the serpent is the same as on A....
To my knowledge, and my boss's, ( who REALLY knows his sh#t about this stuff!!!) this is the only one ever recovered like this.

Another ODD thing about the 2 Type G barrels we've conserved recently is the barrel construction.
They're done in two pieces, the breech section and the barrel.
Judging by the difference in decay of the metal, it seems that they were making the breech section separately, and out of a better quality of metal, then scarf welding the rest of the barrel on.
You can see the butt/scarf weld seams quite clearly, and the longitudinal seams do not align with each other.
Again, as far as we know, no other trade gun barrels have been found that have been constructed like this.

Also got the wadding and ball from the HBC gun.
The wadding appears to be palm frond, and the ball is faceted, looks like it was hand hammered!

After all is said and done, we just have MORE questions! :lol:
So, does this push the date for introduction of Type G's back a bit from 1730?
Maybe.
How long was that kind of transitional side plate in use?

What's the deal with making the barrels that way?

How did that HBC gun end up in Florida?

There just really aren't a whole lot of these things, so every time we get one, it seems we learn something.
(Or have more questions!)
"As far as setting down a drinking horn, historical records show that proper Viking etiquette was to simply jam the pointy end into the nearest non-Germanic person should one need his hands free...
y'know, if you had to pee....."
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Post by chef de chambre »

The further back you go in firearms, the less solid ground you stand on when it comes to identifying features. A lot of turn of 16th century guns classified as such in the past, could very well be last quarter of the 15th century guns.
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Post by Rittmeister Frye »

I had no idea that they were making the breech and tube in separate sections that late! Wow... strange stuff one finds! Cool info on the trade guns btw, I love those little fuzee's! Of course I turned mine into a carabine, but the sling bar comes off if I need it to... 8)

Chef, you're right about the back-dating of things as we learn more. Then again there are other things that are out there and are definitely "out of period" and God knows why. Like the interesting French-made "French-lock" flintlock pistol shown in an article in Arms and Armour Annual from the '70's. Obviously the stock style is ca 1600-1610, but it's fitted with a VERY "prototype" lock. It used to be argued that Marin le Bourgois had "invented" the French Lock in approximately 1608-1615, but that has been disproved. But where on earth did this one come from? Seems to have disappeared from view since the article though, so quen sabe? Makes for interesting discussions though!

Cheers!

Gordon
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