The Armour Archive

jeffsandersjkd wrote:Hey Richard,
You are right on in your comments. I thought the same thing and was very interested in what Jeff H was planing in terms of the Euro style jousting. Then I got to page 6 of this thread and he and Gwen started their little bash fest. It is to bad really I just hope some good can come of it and they will think twice before bashing anyone else, especially in a public forum. Hopefully next time they will have more class.
And now back to the arena while I still have some daylight.......
Jeff Sanders

Hi Jeff.

I suspect this thing is largely a misunderstanding and reaction stemming soley from a combination of Jeffrey & Gwen reading that article and their frustration with the problems that the practices portrayed by that article has caused for other groups.

In my past experiences with Jeff and Gwen they have always been friendly and encouraging. No jousting troupe I've ever seen is perfect, there is almost always room for improvement and a chance for one group to learn from another (often by sharing tales of both a given group's strengths, weaknesses and jousting styles).

If I had read that article, I would have made some of the same assumptions Gwen & Jeffrey did. It would be hard not to. Having been the victim myself of innaccurate reporting, including being quoted as saying things that I never, ever, would have said, I understand your position too. Funny how reporters can screw up so badly.

I'd suggest we all just take a deep breath and move forward in a constructive fashion. Agree to disagree where necessary. There is a lot that I could probably learn from both of your jousting groups and I hope you both continue to post in this forum regarding your approaches and ideas. For one thing I'd love to know how Jeffrey H straps the shields used at Leeds, more about their organization of the ground crew, specifics of the lance design. I'd like to know more about how Jeff S applies his experience with various non-medieval equestrian practices to his jousting group, which modern training and aids he finds most useful, etc. Do either of you keep journals or records to track over time what you think works best or do you just keep it in your heads? Do you use video and other technology to analyze performances of both rider and horse, etc. Perhaps these would best be put on a separate thread.

But I'm interested in how all current armoured jousting groups do what they do. And why they do it.

Jeff S:

[img]http://pbskids.org/backyardjungle/files.php/162845_discovery_f.jpg[/img]

Meow

Silly Thomas,
That's not Jeff S! That is the secret weapon he straps to the end of his lance! Right deadly, that.

I think we can move along from here. I frankly cannot blame him for his response. Anyone who has had any press on them knows how what comes from a reporters pen is about identical to what comes from their arses. HOWEVER, the snarkiness that ensued following the article commentary appeared much more personal. Was it intended to come across that way? I have no idea, often what is written is a lot more blunt than we intended...or not.

We are all very passionate about the horses and this thing we do. We all work damned hard at it and it is easy to take offense. I believe we can all find some mutual ground and at least some respect one another on the basis of the hard work and effort it takes to pull it off at all.

Dev

I would hope so.

It pains me to see rancor among folks I should like to admire. Here's what Epictetus says: If someone does a wrong, by speaking out of turn, should you do yourself a wrong also, by allowing yourself to be vexed, and to lash out like a wounded animal?

I think that what Gwen wrote was an outburst of frustration. I myself have long since gotten past bored with jousting as it's presented by all the US troupes. It was fine when I was thirteen, but it's just tired, now. I think that Jeff is venturing off on a bold vision of super high-fidelity presentation, and that this could lay the framework for a whole new paradigm in chivalric equestrian sport. The stresses involved with this, and the troubles of trying to birth such a vision, which we must admit is a departure from the current mode, can lead to frustrations which are hard to contain.

Gwen's a sweet lady, I deem, but she can, like us all, make mistakes of speech.

Jeff S, I see you as a proud chevalier of a proud and established line, and a visionary whose dream has become manifest in what you do. I have not seen much of what you do, so I do not feel qualified to say much more. If I am not mistaken you are also a teacher of Jeet Kun Do, so you have more than one skill.

Jeff H, I see you as a gifted polymath, who has dreamed his dreams by day, to make them real. You are famous in more than one challenging realm of activity--making armor and jousting--and so of course your horsemanship might be less than Jeff S.

A wise man once said "Never say ill of another man's skill. There is something that he can best you at handily, and he will not ever forget your ill words until he has shown you up in it."

Further, I think that we all could benefit from understanding that our positions and our personalities are resultant from the challenges and hurts which we have bourne.

Jeff S, I had hoped to interest you in participating in the Crossroads in Time event which I'm organizing for next summer, and had sent you a Private Message some months ago to that effect, but I don't know if you'd be interested. I don't think high fidelity re-enactment/living hostory is your bag, and the kit requirements are such that your sunglasses would be unwelcome.

Jeff H, same invitation, though you have become so engaged with other endeavors that it is extended purely as a matter of politeness, with no expectation that it should be taken up.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[img]http://pbskids.org/backyardjungle/files.php/162845_discovery_f.jpg[/img]

No, that's a Classical equestrian training device (Grison's Treatise 1555).

It's a soft coronel, right?

No...it's how you teach a horse "Aires above Ground". Strap it on and watch them fly.

The SCA's Equestrian Minister is looking for a successor to take over administration of that office, at present. Contact her and the SCA's Corporate level Marshal, if you are interested in applying for the office. This is the coporate level office that administers the Kingdom level Equestrian offices and all the riders in the SCA and what they do in the SCA.

Contact me off line at; duke_henrik@hotmail.com
for more information if you're interested.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Leo Medii - wrote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
That said, don't let one person's negative comments dissuade you from participating in SCA Equestrian.


I'm finding that it isn't the negative comments about horse size. Most SCA EQ folks I've met don't care about the horse size.
It seems to an outsider (and former professional jouster) that the rules are overbearing and stifling, and the community is pretty close knit and outsiders get the back seat unless they hang it out tough long enough to become less outsiders.
At home, I have a total medival equestrain set-up. Personally, I've just gotten into SCA EQ and liked it a lot. I don't have a trailer, one due tot he fact that I've never needed one since I got it all at the farm, and two I can't pull one with my e-150 van. That has made it tough to get to SCA eq events, and we pretty much go if someone in the area is going and will take our $ for gas and the trip. I also have the "luck" of it being MY house and my list. So, what I say goes, and I don't have to use the totally overbearing SCA EQ rules.
To be totally blunt and honest, I'd love to support EQ in the SCA. However, it seems harder and harder to do so as I go on.
_________________
Lion of the Middle - Fight hard, hit hard, leave it on the field. "In modo antiquo"

Fire Stryker and Trystan,
WOW so many cool uses for those little buggers. And all this time I thought they where just a tasty treat '-)

Jehan,
Now that was a constructive post! I will admit that at times I am not so good at the turn the other cheek thing. When someone takes a swing at me, I have a habit of taking them to the ground and choking them out. Some times it is the right response some times it is not, but that person usually refrains from swinging at me again.

As for the Crossroads in Time, I am interested. I can't seem to find the message about it Could you send the info again? Last year I attended the School of the Renaissance Soldier. That was the first time I had been to an event like that and I had a GREAT time. It is just to bad I can't do the contact lens thing Then again, lucky for me spectacles are period, I just have to get the right kind '-)

Oh and yes I do teach JKD/Kali and some times a little Sambo and Jujitsu too '-)
Thanks again for a good post,
Jeff Sanders

Jeff, you're welcome. Sometimes we find we're a little raw--happens to all of us--and I figured that your MMA training might have some crossover with your communication mode. In speech, as there is more time to consider one's stance, I counsel a more gentle approach (though I'm at fault often myself). More flow, less crash, if you know what I mean.

Spectacles ARE period. I don't know which era you portray, or even whether you pursue a coherent portrayal--that is to say, whether you try and replicate all of your armor, clothing, and accessories from one place and time. The shaded glass might not be as dark as your glasses, but I really am not an expert, just a dillettante generalist. I think it would simply be a matter of having round prescription lenses ground and mounted in a set of Trig Lane-design frames, if you're doing a fourteenth or fifteenth century look.

On Crossroads in Time, I'll direct you to the Event Guidelines, in this forum, which I'll bump up to the top for you. I only mention it here because it's meant as a gathering of west coast high fidelity enthusiasts. It's meant to be a crossover, participants-only full immersion event where folks who are interested in high-end portrayals can meet and discuss methods, techniques, and so on, and generally get their geek on.

Gordon Frye's School of the Renaissance Soldier was a great inspiration to me, actually. I saw that folks were interested in such retreats from his event's example.

Now, back to the topic at hand, so that my efforts at mediation do not become a thread derail...

I like this vision presented by Jeff Hedgecock, because to me it's about pursuivants of chivalric equestrian sport doing it for the pleasure and comradery of it, separate from any desire to please a crowd, or please a financier. It shows a dedication to stringent first principles. It will never be as rock'em sock'em as Trystran's "combat jousting" or as turkey-pleasing as the staged or formulaic faire performances, but then again, it's approaching the sport from the long view, and the idea that it's a side adjunct to a life, rather than a primary focus. For now, I imagine. Those people who get it, will get it.

There are some other things I like about it: namely, the focus on horses of "regular" size, rather than showy theatrical drafts. This approach opens up the pastime to those who have regular horses rather than big shires or drafts, which seem common among medieval enthusiasts.

It also avoids the compromise necessary to promote and publicize equestrian sport rapidly. It insists on adhering to principles which might not interest folks who would ordinarily be into marketing this sort of thing.

Anyway, I've seen about ten different jousting shows over the years. I liked the one I saw in Vleuten, Holland--the Riddertournoi des Ridders van den Haar--the best. It to me seemed the best combination of all possible compromises.

And it plays to my interests in the future of medieval re-enactment, that is to say, the gathering of semi-independently or independently-funded and sourced chevaliers in events of their own design, for chivalric sport of their own making, where crowd entertainment is an adjunct, rather than the primary focus. THAT, I think you must admit, is big.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

By reading this thread it seems like it's Jeff vs. WCJA... It's not that simple. There are a few of us who do IJA style jousting here in the US and by IJA style jousting I mean that we use balsa tips, actually try to hit each other and dont promote unhorsings. Yes I said there are a few but more and more people are joining our ranks every day

The IJA at it's basic levels is very much like the EJL. The armour standards are not strict, so more people can try it out. I think thats a great way to go.. Get people into it, so they start to enjoy it and then steer them in the direction of getting more and more historical armour. The higher levels of the IJA require historical kit and I feel rightfully so! Also, people will see that the better your kit is, the more invites you will have! I have a decent suit (it can be improved in many many ways) and I have only been jousting for 5 months but already I think I have jousted in more countries and with more groups than any other North American jouster (Cliff Basset.. Jordan Heron and Jeff are right up there too). Belgium, France (Normandy and Burgandy), Germany, Norway, Sweden... Heck even the USA doing the Freelancer style. I'm even going to get to go to Austrailia in April! How cool is that?!

I know that because I have a 14th century kit, I wont get to joust at Leeds or with Joram in the Netherlands, but thats ok with me. They have a look they want to keep and I think thats cool

So dont worry Jeff. I dont think you will always have to go overseas to find like minded people to joust against. Too bad we are on different coasts. I'd love to meet you when you give your class in November in NH. I just feel that if you keep your standards very high, you'll find very few playmates... 100% historical is very tough right out of the gate and I applaude you for setting the bar that high. Lower them a bit, so people can get started, and then be thier inspiration.

BUt, if you lower your bar to let others play, the bar will stay that low as it seems 'ok' and no better 'needs' to be achieved??? 100% right off the bat is not easy, but it does determine who is determined.

It will also turn many people away. The cost to own a horse is way up there... The cost to put together a period suit is way upthere.. Just the cost of the panopy that goes along with it is right up there...

People with average kits will only stay average if they are allowed to. Dont let them!

There is also a misunderstanding about jousting tournaments... There are very few, just turn up and joust tourneys out there... All of the ones I have done are invitation only. The ones where you pay to play dont have very high armour standards but the ones that pay you... The ones you really want to shoot for... Have decently high standards. Once the ok armour guys see thier decent suit buddies flying around the world without them, then maybe they will start to upgrade thier kit too....

Remember, if you make period armour the cool thing to have... then more people will gravitate towards it. You have to set the trend!

Thank you Mr Sanders for tickling my funny bones. Never be sorry for reacting to your instincts with such passion - for instincts are often spot on.

Now, the next time we meet, I would love to indulge your desire to exhibit advanced horsemanship - even if other parties involved do not wish to participate in such a display.

You Sir are a delight and I have never seen you act any other part but The Gentleman. I truly look forward to riding with you again.

Respectfully,

O.B.

I must concur with Thomas. If people want it bad enough, then it will happen. It does show who is serious and who isn't.

Yes, the cost of horses is expensive, especially in the North Eastern United States, but that hasn't stopped us from owning 2.

Proper Armour is expensive, but it's very protective and it looks cool. And I don't know anyone really that's put a suit together in less that 2 years. And depending on what century you want to pursue, mods can be made.

However, the clinics and Knight Schools currently being run, do not require you to have these top level historical kits to learn the basics. Many are designed to teach the fundamentals such as proper lance handling, ground crew basics, timing, etc... Many of these skills do not require armour for starts. So if people want to give it a try, they can with minimal out put. Also, historical kit is not required for clinics.

If you're interested in participating in our clinic, it's in November 17-19.

dominic wrote:

Black Swan Designs wrote:And Jeff got a talking to at the last SCA thing we did (Queen's Equestrian Tourney couple of years ago) about how his armour was scaring the horses. Hellloooo..

liviatasia wrote:
This happened at the last event I took my horse to (about three years ago). I got a stern lecture about scaring another horse.

See, I frikkin' hate to hear stories like this. Personally, I think the ONLY way that SCA Equestrian activities is going to grow is by first courting those who are already horse people!

I'll add my story in - I left the SCA a very long time ago and swore that I would NEVER go back. A few years ago, a very good friend of mine became one of the last Princes of Northshield and asked me to come back to the SCA to help out getting jousting set up. After a bit of arm bending, I did. First event I went to, we got there a bit late for the equestrian activities and the equestrian folks were pretty snooty at best and really didn't have time to talk to one of the "rabble."

Leif asked me to give it another shot and we went to an event where I was told that I could ride. Well, I was allowed a horse (I had recently told my Trakhener as we had a new baby and only one of them could stay), but not allowed to canter it (games are dreadfully dull at a trot, especially when you aren't even using a real sword or allowed to cut things!), but I rode for a bit and met with the equestrians afterwards. Well, over beers that night we talked jousting and I received a litany of reasons why the types of jousting that I had participated in wouldn't work. A LOT of the suggestions that they were making were unfeasible and ones that we had already tried over the years and dismissed as either dangerous, dumb or both. The only KSCA equestrian seemed to be the only one that was really interested in hearing about how different styles worked (or didn't) with one notable personage (with a very famous husband) spending most of her time deriding my choices in horses (I too, like crosses for all of the previously stated reasons) and telling me that the SCA would "never allow" that type of activity.

Finally, right before I left, I told them that in France, children are allowed to joust with styrofoam/cardboard lances separated by two tilt ropes (1m apart), with light barrel helms and shields - BUT if they really wanted to have jousting they would have to have a new level of competence above both advanced and accoutoured (sorry for the spelling its late) riders.

After that, I pretty much washed my hands of them and went back to jousting/tilting/whatever they way we were doing at the time (WCJA).

As for horse size, Trystan, I know that you have seen Shane's Dragon (a Norman Percheron) which is what, maybe 15'2'? That is as close as one would have come back "in the day" for a warhorse. Don't get me wrong, I love jousting on Paladin, but I never kidded myself (nor told any crowds) that he was a "period" size horse.

I have gone to the IJA as I would much rather have all of my expenses paid to go to a joust and enjoy the camaraderie of my fellows without worrying about prize money and I am much more interested in the historical/martial aspects of jousting than any glory or money to be made from winning tourneys (guess I got too old to worry about that stuff).

If I want to get paid, I'll go back to doing shows. Right now, I want to go Down Under to joust with Callum and Rod (et al), over to Norway to joust with Petter, to France/Low Countries to joust with Fred, and would dearly love one day to get an invite to joust at the RA.

Oh, Gwen, my stainless armour that Shark made for me DID weigh 120lbs, but I am a bit bigger than most (and I sold it and went back to a more period metal .

I leave this with one thought, "The ONLY people that can know what we go through, why we do it, and how much joy it gives us - is each other - let's not bash, flame, or any other way attempt to demean our extremely little fraternity/Sorority"

I must concur with Thomas. If people want it bad enough, then it will happen.

I do agree with this.
It is known to my freinds that I'm not the wealthiest person in the world. I LOVE jousting, and medieval combat. So much so that I give up a lot of "real world" items to persue my passion.
It's amazing how much you can save just by not eating out a few times a week! I got a 1,500 horse by giving up eating out for eight months!

However, by placing the bar so high, only few will reach it. Thus, the amount of people taking part is diminished.

Also, Mr. Clark, could you send me a PM? I am very interested in chatting with you about your midwest jousting thing.

Cheers!

Yes, jousting is an expensive sport. So is SCUBA diving, Stock car racing, and skydiving, yet plenty of people do these sports as a hobby, and some go on to make a living from them.

It seems to me that much of the passionate debate that has appeared here and on other Forums stems from the "jousting as a business" vs "jousting as a hobby" paradigms.

While most professional jousters also have a love of history, armour and horses, the American joust community exists primarily to perform for the non-reenactor public. Most jousting in this country is part of a business model. Until recently there were very few "amateur" jousters...folks who could and would joust simply for their own enjoyment as a hobby (I don't consider reimbursement for travel expenses being paid to joust, btw). The SCA's foam-tip form of jousting not withstanding, there have been very few venues or opportunities for amateur hobbyists like me to joust without being part of a business of some kind. Business decisions, by promotors, faire producers and entertainment firms, not zeal for historical reenactment or ideals of authenticity, have heretofor controlled how jousting is done in this country.

I understand completely the frustration and hand wringing from those whose ideals are firmly in the high authenticity reenactment camp! But squabbling over ideals, styles and authenticity is NOT going to change things!

Like Lloyd, I wish the two camps would just stop fighting among themselves. Various groups may joust using different styles and have different ideals about authenticity, etc., but most jousters have the same goal. They all simply want to joust against others and get better at the sport. Anything that provides MORE opportunities for the non-pro and the pro to meet in chivalrous competition, the better IMO.

My first jousting experiences were with the AJA. The training I received was good but didn't serve all my needs. The founder of the AJA is probably responsible for getting 50% of the professional jousters in the North America started in their careers and will readily admit he trains mainly to have jousters available for his professional shows and events. As I have no wish to be a professional, I moved on.

I was excited about the IJA coming to the US because I am a hobbyist jouster. I do not ever want to make my living at it, but I want to be the best hobby-jouster I can be. The IJA's high authenticity standards are a goal for me. It's been a steep learning curve! Until recently I couldn't tell a Sallet from a Bascinet! Armour, reenactment and medieval history are not my forte'....I'm a horse person with 30+ years of riding, training and showing in several disciplines. When my local SCA kingdom asked me to help get the foam-tip jousting style going, I jumped at the opportunity. Is it "real" jousting? No way. But anything that allows me to practice skills, train my horse and learn more about a sport I love is fine with me. I remain appalled by the snobbery, condescension and nit-picking folks have endured because they happen to be involved in one sort of jousting or another.

To me, no style can be mutually exclusive. Years ago I learned to ride hunt seat, jump and do cross country with one trainer. I later learned how to rope, sort and team pen with someone else. Then went on to learn how to ride and show gaited breeds from another teacher. What is so different about a jouster who comes from the Realgestech school of jousting learning to joust in the IJA style, the EJL style or even the SCA style for that matter?? Sure the IJA has high standards. But last time I checked, the WCJA's armour standards weren't so simple either. Some jousters will always have a better kit, better horse skills and better technique. And in competition, it stands to reason they will win and others will lose. Those with the best kits, horses and skills will be the model, inspire immitation (the finest form of flattery afterall), and eventually raise up the standards for a sport of jousting over a business of jousting in North America.

~ariadne

Sir Kieran: "I do agree with this. It is known to my friends that I'm not the wealthiest person in the world. I LOVE jousting, and medieval combat. So much so that I give up a lot of "real world" items to persue my passion. It's amazing how much you can save just by not eating out a few times a week! I got a $1,500 horse by giving up eating out for eight months!"

You didn't give up "real world" items. You gave up dross to make a real world of your own choosing. A better one I deem, Sir.

Sir Kieran: "However, by placing the bar so high, only few will reach it. Thus, the amount of people taking part is diminished."

Let there be one thing in this world which is not watered down and turned feeble by shortfalls and impotent dreaming. Let those who do not have the wherewithal to portray the lofty or the noble for once take their place according to what their gifts and talents permit them to portray, and let those who can, do. Let there be one uncompromising man, who will not yield to trifles but instead hoists his flag on the high summit, which is hard conquered, or who even sounds the clarion that the high summit will be boldly tried. Him I will follow, or at the very least salute and give aid.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

Jehan de Pelham wrote:
Let there be one thing in this world which is not watered down and turned feeble by shortfalls and impotent dreaming. Let those who do not have the wherewithal to portray the lofty or the noble for once take their place according to what their gifts and talents permit them to portray, and let those who can, do. Let there be one uncompromising man, who will not yield to trifles but instead hoists his flag on the high summit, which is hard conquered, or who even sounds the clarion that the high summit will be boldly tried. Him I will follow, or at the very least salute and give aid.

Very well said good sir, my hat's off to you.

I'm going to be straight up now, if you want to play your game half assed, that's OK. We want to play our game full on and spare no expense. If the number of people doing it is diminished, oh well, let there be 20 people that can do it as damn close as they can. By adding more people into the equation it's only going to water down what you are doing and lessen the overall effect as people are generally top polite to say anything about someone's kit.

A woman whose opinion I value once said (paraphrased)... I'd rather open the flap of my pavilion and see 10 perfectly, historically accurately, dressed people than 100 poorly dressed. Personally, I'm of the same opinion. I don't care if you strap a chickens to your heads and run at other backwards on donkeys. It's just not gonna happen at any of our tourneys

Also, there's no way to get an accurate count of the number of people who may "hobby joust" because there's no way to know who's doing this stuff in their back yard and not checking in with the Armour Archive Experts (tm).

My view, FWIW, is simply that I can do whatever the hell I want and you can do whatever the hell you want. The only opinions that I count are those which I solicit. There ARE however certain people whose opinions I've learned to look for... so each to his own

Oh... and Jehan, you totally kick ass... I'm just sayin'

<redundant post deleted>

Trystan of Anglesey wrote:

Michael wrote:Am I correct in my interpretation that you are implying that what we are doing is not "real tilting"?

Try not to get your knickers in too tight of a twist, friend...but...yeah, that's exactly what I said.

Y'all are jousting, not tilting. Tilting, in my humble studies, implies the intended unhorsing on purpose of your noble opponent with the intent of bearing him to the ground with great intent and into the dirt etc...

Just catching up with this thread after arriving home from our European trip.

You don't really believe the above do you Trystan? You're just taking the piss in a friendly fashion???

I have done the style you practice, as well as lots of the balsa jousting, and I can tell you without a doubt that the balsa style (done properly and well) takes more skill and can hit just as hard.

I submit the following based on my personal experience:

The standard Freelancer/WCJA lance is a solid piece of dowel with a 1 foot long solid balsa tip in the end. Put this on the target and you basically have a solid lance, instant impact if it hits well. I found that as long as you put the lance on target you pretty much had result. Easy. Been there, done that.

The standard balsa lance has a 3 foot long piece of balsa on a solid lance. We don't split our tips so the balsa is solid as well. Nice solid hit, lots of broken bits. The skill and big hits come into play when the jouster has the skill to continue through in that micro-second and put the broken stump or socket into the target, now you are hitting with solid wood. Big hit, unhorsings etc etc.

Some video for your perusal, done with standard lances fitted with 3 foot balsa tips. We used dowel for these lances as we had to transport 20 of them on a 10 000 km jousting tour.

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/valcerre/Videos/

Trystan wrote:Tilting also can imply a frogmouth helm which you tilt upwards at the last second for safety while defending/recieving a head shot I am happy to be wrong about this or anything else I say. It happens.

Not quite correct. This is another one of those myths, like huge horses in the joust Why on Earth would anyone blind themselves before impact??? Let alone the simple fact that if you are using a Frogmouth then it is strapped/bolted to your cuirass and historically an arret would being used. This means that if you move your head back you move the helmet back thereby moving the cuirass and your upper body back and lifting your lance, meaning you miss. Don't believe me, go get the equipment and try it.

The design of the Frogmouth means you don't have to move your head up to be protected, you are protected by the simple design of the helm itself.

Trystan, I like you, I really do, but don't believe everything Roy tells you about jousting. The style that the Freelancers/WCJA are doing is done in 16thC harness with 16thC re-inforces that were designed around the use of a hollow/multipiece lance that is meant to shatter dramitically. But for some reason a solid dowel lance is being used. If you really want to be tilting/jousting with a solid lance then you need to ditch the 16thC harness and be using harness from the late 12th-early-mid 15thC.

I have a lot of respect for some of the guys I met on my 2003 and 2004 trips/tours. But I really found that 99% of them had a very Hollywood view of history.

Now, this isn't just confined to North America. I have met the type all over the world. I recently ran into a European jouster who looked and acted like the worst of the WWF jouster types I met in North America. Hell, he even admitted to rolling his left shoulder back so that his opponent couldn't score as well in tournaments I must say that none of the NA jousters I met would even think about that.

Personally I think that Ripper is one of the finest jousters I have ever met and would do well no matter what style he did.

I will also say that we (Down Under) are leading the charge in using period style solid lances fitted with steel coronels, vamplates and grapers and used with arrets and Frogmouth helms.
As far as we are concerned everyone else are big girls and just playing at pretend jousting (For those that missed it, that last bit is said totally tongue in cheek and with a big smiley)

Trystan of Anglesey wrote:
Y'all are jousting, not tilting. Tilting, in my humble studies, implies the intended unhorsing on purpose of your noble opponent with the intent of bearing him to the ground with great intent and into the dirt etc...

I could, of course, be wrong but it's my understanding and interpretation that the words jousting and tilting are pretty much interchangeable. If there's any real distinction at all it lies with the change in the pursuit that occurred when the "tilt" line was introduced. The way I see it... you can "joust" with lances, swords, maces, battleaxes, or even daggers. It can be done in an open field and it doesn't *require* going across the horses neck (from my French perspective at least.) Whereas "tilting" (my personal definition, YMMV) is when there is a physical barrier between the combattants and they are both armed with lances. I seriously doubt it has anything at all to do with any physical orientation of rider or horse and I would challenge the scholarship of any such interpretation.

Of course I was taking the friendly piss Rod. You see it for what it is.
I don't want to squabble any more. Especially not with THE Rowdy Roddy Walker, one of the biggest stars the WWFjoust ever produced.

As for frogmouths and tilting forward and back...I was going by pg30-31 of Osprey's Elite #17 'Knights at Tournament' and detailed information on pg 157 of Barber & Barker's 'Tournaments' both of which support my stance in very great detail.

As for tilting and scoring, for instance, Sir John Tiptoft's ordinances of 1466 state that to unseat a rider or bear mount and rider to the ground shall recieve the highest score, next best score is for a head attaint. I typed all that in an earlier post in this thread. See pg 192 in Barber's 'Tournaments'. This position is also evidenced by multiple extant period score cards. I also admit that there were many many different types of jousts between 1400-1600.

If nothing else, at least I have been on topic. All I wanted to do was talk about Jousting in the USA, and so I have. I wanted to seek more horizons than my current gig...and now I have.
And to that end, I would still happily face any of you, in any sort of list, with any sort of lance and augmentation au plaisance, that is the custom at that particular tournament, for honor and friendship, and perhaps some glory, if such is our lot. Have horse and panoply, will travel.

And to that end, I would still happily face any of you, in any sort of list, with any sort of lance and augmentation au plaisance, that is the custom at that particular tournament, for honor and friendship, and perhaps some glory, if such is our lot

Beer! Trystan, don't forget the beer!

Dev

Because beer is food.

Thats the right additude Trystan! You do it because you love it and you want to do more!

I agree with Michael. Let me do what I do at my place. Thats the way I look at it. If I want to joust with you at your place, I joust using your rules. If you joust at mine, you use my rules. It's all pretty easy as I see it.

Also, dont hold yourselves to others levels. Have the best kit you can and always look to upgrade it. Good harness stands out in the crowd and people will appreciate it.

The only time, I think we get into trouble here is when people start saying x is better than y. There are alot of factors that may make x better than y but if I like y better, then thats what I'll do.

Here's an example I like to use...
I did a tourney at a fortified castle in Germany. The tilt was made from natural materials, banners swayed in the breeze and just about everywhere I looked, I saw pavillions or the castle or some other grand Real medieval thing. The jousters themselves had a full range of armour, from very nice and historical to cobbled together in thier basement. That place had it's good and bad.
I've seen pictures of Leeds and talked to some people who have jousted there. Beautiful armour on everyone. Stands, banners, flowing caparisons, but it is surrounded by an industrial looking park that you can see... See, good and bad.

I would rather joust 100 people around the world in decent kits than just 6 in a few places in excellent kit. Then again, thats just me

Rolling his shoulder back at impact? What a very cowardly thing to do! I have seen some do it without thought but never have I met a jouster who would proudly boast of folding thier target.

Granted, some might have done such a thing in period but we have professional athelets that cheat today too. That doesnt make it right. It defies the chivalric spirit of jousting.

If you allow helmet hits, then it isnt as bad a sin but if the shoulder is the main target, then you are just a miserable person. I wouldnt want to joust with them...

Then again... just my oppinion.....

As for frogmouths and tilting forward and back...I was going by pg30-31 of Osprey's Elite #17 'Knights at Tournament' and detailed information on pg 157 of Barber & Barker's 'Tournaments' both of which support my stance in very great detail.

Written by academics repeating a view held since the Victorian era. None of those repeating that particular myth in print have any actual practical experience in the joust.

And to that end, I would still happily face any of you, in any sort of list, with any sort of lance and augmentation au plaisance, that is the custom at that particular tournament, for honor and friendship, and perhaps some glory, if such is our lot. Have horse and panoply, will travel.

Spoken by one of proven courage who understands honourable combat amongst gentlemen and gentlewomen.

I hope to meet you in the lists one fine day.

RW wrote:Written by academics repeating a view held since the Victorian era. None of those repeating that particular myth in print have any actual practical experience in the joust.

But, but...

... that's how Count Adamar described it in "Knight's Tale". Surely -he- knew what he was talking about ...

carlyle wrote:But, but...

... that's how Count Adamar described it in "Knight's Tale". Surely -he- knew what he was talking about ...

Ahh, the Count. One of my favourite characters in that, one of my favourite films.

The only character I didn't like was Joscelyn. Did anyone else think that her French offsider really had it going on???

Rod Walker wrote:
The only character I didn't like was Joscelyn. Did anyone else think that her French offsider really had it going on???

OOHH YEEAAHH!!!

Rod Walker wrote:

As for frogmouths and tilting forward and back...I was going by pg30-31 of Osprey's Elite #17 'Knights at Tournament' and detailed information on pg 157 of Barber & Barker's 'Tournaments' both of which support my stance in very great detail.

Written by academics repeating a view held since the Victorian era. None of those repeating that particular myth in print have any actual practical experience in the joust.

And to that end, I would still happily face any of you, in any sort of list, with any sort of lance and augmentation au plaisance, that is the custom at that particular tournament, for honor and friendship, and perhaps some glory, if such is our lot. Have horse and panoply, will travel.

Spoken by one of proven courage who understands honourable combat amongst gentlemen and gentlewomen.

I hope to meet you in the lists one fine day.

\

Hmmm... I have never, ever read that the frogmouths were not used in the manner described in the books mentioned. So now I am curious. Are there any historical writings or other primary sources that confirm the modern conventional wisdom on this is wrong? Or is this your opinion only?

I'm not being snarky, I'd really like to know the answer.