My 14th Century Kit

[Gregoire de Lyon]

It took me awhile to find it, but here is an example of the king of Navarre wearing a long sleeved jupon. Taken from the "Chroniques de France ou de St. Denis", dated to the "end of 14th century".

I would also note that this jupon does not appear to be padded/quilted as compared to teh others in the image.

[Jehan de Pelham]

I gotta admit I am straying heavily into speculation, but I don't think that men of worth would deign to deal with textile armours--why? Because why the hell would they hide perfectly regal and suitable harness with cloth? It's counterintuitive--in essence, it's like my strategy for years, which is to strive to have harness which need not be concealed with cloth. Let the shining metal skin show to the world.

I spent the last drunken hour--I always get into these intellectual discussions when I have consumed my daily ration of ale (this condition has only gotten more pronounced since my return from outremer)--discussing with Raimond how we all get so wrapped up with "what was the one way." Well, I suggest that men at arms did what they could! Some could go bare metal, and did. Some needed artifice of textile, and resorted to it. The Germans hung on to cuir bouilli and splinted limb defenses far longer than any sane French or Englishman held onto it.

I offer this illustration as a counter example to the French king with a mantle of textile (I deem that what is depicted is single-layer coat weight wool, based on the hand as implied by the folds). Now--what is going on underneath Sir William's jupon? Hell, I don't know! I don't have x-ray eyes. It all goes to show that our iconography doesn't solve all our questions.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compaignye Store

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

The event photos look great,Your Excellency.
Welcome to the Mafia.

[David Teague]

I gotta admit I am straying heavily into speculation, but I don't think that men of worth would deign to deal with textile armours--why? Because why the hell would they hide perfectly regal and suitable harness with cloth? It's counterintuitive--in essence, it's like my strategy for years, which is to strive to have harness which need not be concealed with cloth. Let the shining metal skin show to the world.

As English..., but the French seem to like to cover their armour with a Jupon during the 100 year war. Why? Easy, because they are French! Just like the Germans and their splinted legs and arms...

Do you think all of the French Knights in the posted art work are all unarmoured under their jupons? They have full legs on... why nothing else?The King doesn't stand around with just foot soldiers, those are his trusted knights.

Here is a knight from the Musee des beaux artsin Dijon.




Here is the best shot of a aventail padding (this one's for you, Tasha )




IMO as somebody who does a historic longsword form, let me tell you from personal experience, you want a heavy lining to protect your neck from a thrust... trust me on this as I have been gagged by a blunted steel sword while wearing a padded maille standard... and it felt like I had nothing on...

Cheers,

DT

[Jehan de Pelham]

The aventail padding I absolutely agree on. There's no way I'd go into combat with an unpadded aventail and a gorget with weapons of war as I do for faits a plaisance with wasters.

The padded jupons in use by the French. You got me there, Dave. I can't claim to figure it out. Not completely. My understanding is that those things are hot. But, I can't deny that the weight and looseness of the garment would have a definite defensive role, both in slowing down an incoming weapon before it even strikes the body, and then providing ablative material to stop damage once it strikes. Riddle me this: The English, generally speaking, as a nation, choose to go without a defensive garment that another nation's warriors largely choose to adopt. Why? Not merely as a matter of fashion, but when death is on the line? To me, this stretches the well comprehended desire not to look like the other guys to the breaking point. Either the English cracked the code on protective technologies that allowed them to go without the textile overgarment, or the English were as a nation, more foolhardy.

Anything or nothing could be underneath those full garments. I am inclined to believe that those who wore them who could afford complete harness did so, while those who could not, limped along with what they could afford. Why? Ockham's Razor.

I have attached a trio of French Manuscript Illustrations showing some variance on the theme with padded torso garments. In all cases where armor is exposed it is complete plate harness.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compaignye Store

[Baron Alejandro]

..What I am implying is splinted or cuir boulli defenses of the earlier era which less well to do men at arms might cling to due to lack of means.

What I am saying is that I suspect these textile defenses to be a hallmark of the less well to do....

(KIDDING MODE ON) Why, Jehan, are you implying that I am a Baron of lesser means?! How dare you, sirrah! (KIDDING MODE OFF)

What's *really* funny is, I *am* a Baron of lesser means. I think it's funny to find examples of that in period (and there's all sorts of poor nobility wandering around the Renaissance) and imitate that.

And thanks for the compliment, Malcolm!

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

So what you are saying Jehan is that in order to portrait a man of means the more "steel" you have visible the better?
I seem to recall seeing German art of the late 14th Century where the cuises and greaves are splinted; are we to say that the Germans are of lesser means than the Italians who are seen with solid steel leg defenses?

I would love to hear the thoughts of my Mafia harness.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Your excellency, the jury's still out on the whole thing, even in terms of my own opinion. I think that the portrayal depends on substance, though, not imagination. A Baron would have, from what I'm seeing in the graphic record, plate steel limb and torso defenses. Because you're only a working man, after all, pursuing more than one portrayal, you're forced into the same straights I imagine a less well to do man at arms might be in.

Malcolm, yeah, kinda. But we see that the French and the Germans have this tendency to wear these textile armors over their torso and that this is done even among the well to do who could have afforded.

Are the English wearing textile defenses under the plate harness? Or are the depictions of thin cloth coverings and exposed steel limb defenses a convention specific to effigies? I tend to believe that except for the faddish wasp-waisting of the figures in the effigies, the harness shown in English funerary monuments is true to form as worn in military use.

The Germans had their own reasons for clinging to older armor compositions, which I don't claim to understand.

I see in the French illustrations that when plate limb defenses are seen poking out from torso garments, they're full steel defenses--but these are illustrations associated with events, where better off men at arms are portrayed. We are missing something, I feel. Are the men at arms shown wearing less "elite" helmets--these are scale helmets and the illustration is a depiction of violence against the nobility--to be assumed that their limb defenses underneath their textile garments are the same as the elite men at arms?

The basic question I have is: Why, contemporaneously, does the English, French, and German funeral monumentary evidence show the utilization of three different military personal defensive technologies when these men at arms were at least occasionally on the same battlefields over an extended period of time?

Another question I have is: Given that the padded or multi-layer textile overgarment was effective in imparting protection to its wearer, why was it adopted by the French and German man at arms given that it undoubtedly was hot, while the English forebore to don it?

The third question I have is: Does anyone notice that Baron Alejandro used the term "big pimpin'" to describe how he will appear if he embroiders his arms on a padded aventail?

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[David Teague]

Hello All,

Style does have a lot to do with armour on how's it's worn.

The Germans stayed with the splinted cuises and greaves way past the French and most English Knights (but there are a few English effigies that show splinted cuises when plate seems the norm). The jupon doesn't add a lot more defence IMO over the English use of a surcoat as I think (warning... warning... warning... David's going to think ) the French split the amount of padding between 2 garments, one used as a arming coat and the jupon. I would bet that the English knights would have used a similar amount of padding over all, just under their armour.

If you don't believe me about fashion driving armour styles, try wearing a padded jupon cut in the "Houplanda" (sorry can't find the right spelling this A.M.) style with those damn hanging sleeves...Please see the knight, lower left hand side in the Philippe Auguste traversant la Loire.jpg that John posted above they get caught on everything! ( Like your great sword hilt during a demo... )

John, if your doing English, don't sweat it... if French... Muhahahaha.

Cheers,

DT

[T. Finkas]

Jehan,

Even when death is on the line, style yet remains---even though this is hard to fathom with our modern minds. The English were known throughout several periods (was it also in the 14th cent?) of preferring to wear their visors up or removed when in battle. Even though it's a 16th century incident, I recall the wounding of Sir Philip Sidney in battle, and his subsequent death. IIRC, Sir Philip saw one of his fellows did was not wearing his cuisses. In a gesture of galantry Sidney removed his own cuisses but subsequently was wonded in the thigh with a crossbow bolt (didn't it pin him to the saddle?). England lost a magnificent example of galantry, courage and every shining example of a knight and courtier.

There is no doubt in my mind that these men wearing jupons along with their full leg harness were wearing at least full arm harness and a maille haubergeon (if not also with a rigid breastplate and possibly a fauld or sorts) underneath. Note that you do see examples of short sleeved jupons where the arm harness shows from underneath. To me, this is the evidence that there was significant "armor under."

Perhaps this is a poor parallel but I see modern workers here in Pittsburgh (i.e. carpenters, tree trimmers, landscapers, tile cutters etc.) working without the reasonable protective gear of goggles, dust masks and hearing protectors. Why? I believe they cast these things aside as a manner of macho bravado, though such behaviour seems extremely short-sighted (potentially, literally).

---

David,

Thanks again for some wonderful, dead-on-point examples! I had never seen that second example. I pledge to never again take the field with an unlined aventail. Not gonna do it!

---

Cheers,
Tim

[T. Finkas]

Just some tangental observations:

Check out the guy on the far right. No leg harness!

Also, in this one note the figure in the front with the chapel-de-fer and no leg harness. And dig the cool jupon on the knight behind him, the pale green one with the leafy shoulder dags that serve as shrt sleeves of a sort---bitchin look, IMHO.

Cheers,
Tim

[Syrfinn]

Actually Tim, speaking as someone who has done those all of those jobs at one point or another, I did it usually cause the equipment was freaking uncomfortable to wear.

Not saying its to smart, cause its not, and I did most of those jobs in my early to mid 20's. But to me, it just wasnt comfortable and half the time got in my way.

[T. Finkas]

Good point, Syr Finn. I guess one could say the same of the visors of medieval helmets. Hot, claustrophobic, stuffy and otherwise uncomfortable. And maybe the motivation of going without a visor is like the argument used by some motorcycle riders who eschew helmets. They say they are safer because they have more situational awareness because of the advantages of unrestricted hearing and vision (not to mention issues of breathing and encumberment).

Cheers,
Tim

[Syrfinn]

Plus, how could we pick out the hero in the movies, if his face is all covered up by those things.

Its still one of the moments in Kingdom of Heaven, when our hero is in the middle of a battle and throws his helm and pulls down his coif, while in mid fight.

Now granted, I could also see him doing it for the reasons I stated. Wasnt exactly like he was used to that stuff, and I could see him doing it, cause it was hot and uncomfortable, though not smart.

[Baron Alejandro]

Anytime I post or talk about the 14th C., the caveat should be made that I don't know diddly about it. HYW? What does that stand for? Hottentots Yield the Win?

The reason my harness came out looking as not-bad as it did, is because I shot off an email to the inestimable Tasha, saying, "I got a bascinet and something I think looks like a jupon. What now?" And she says, "Go thou, varlet, and glimpse the visage of Herr von Hohenklingen, and imitate him." Between her, and Uillieag's infinite patience (I mean for real - I'm a terrible learner) it came what I would call 'acceptable'. A lot of is composed of pieces that transition back & forth between diff. kits - all the armour that isn't shown under the gambeson serves multiple duty.

But I am never satisfied, and nothing is ever in a resting state - I do have upgrades planned to this kit, to include an *outer* padded aventail with an embroidered arms, a coronet on my bascinet, and maybe a globose breastplate. Then I'll approach Big Pimpin' Level 2. Solid steel leg defenses if I ever have time to learn to work metal *properly*. Or I come into the finances truly befitting a Baron.

I prefer to model my portrayals off of a single, direct historical example, and I'm going to move slowly towards the Hohenklingen effigy. As it stands now, I wouldn't ever try and enter the Thirty or anything of high-quality, but for the occasional Pas d'Armes it's ok.

[Syrfinn]

Alejandro, kit looks good, specially with taking the first steps towards it.

As far as HYW, it stands for Hundred Years War.

Plus, you like messing with different looks. What will be fun to watch, is each kit getting upgrades here and there, till you have like 5 pimpin kits, from various periods.

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

But wait, good Baron...Are you wearing hosen and brais? If not then you truely cannot be considered for Big Pimpin in this one and true century....

[Tailoress]

I most certainly did not call you a varlet. I called you my "favorite varlet". Get your citations correct, please.

But seriously, I have consulted the oracle and the oracle says, "Listen unto Tim and David for they know of what they speak."

-Tasha

[Cet]

Some questions/observations on variious points. In no particular order.

Or are the depictions of thin cloth coverings and exposed steel limb defenses a convention specific to effigies? I tend to believe that except for the faddish wasp-waisting of the figures in the effigies, the harness shown in English funerary monuments is true to form as worn in military use.

First. "Thin cloth coverings and exposed limbs."

I suppose the Edward of Woodstock effigy can be taken as the paradigm here? Why do you assume we're seeing a cloth covering garment and not the supporting textile shell of the torso armour itself? His actuall jupon still extant doesn't match the form of his effigy and in fact is of the form you claim the English eschewed.

Second. "I tend to believe that except for the faddish wasp-waisting of the figures in the effigies, the harness shown in English funerary monuments is true to form as worn in military use."

In selecting funery late 14th century English monuments for you are restricting you sources to works largely produced by a very small number of artists often working from "stock" patterns. IIRC there were primarily three engraving houses resposible for the largest part of the brasses we see and only a few more stone carvers. You have to ask how do these carvings compare with military carvings in other contexts and media, other figurative art, and the recorded purchase of armour by English men of this period.

Third. "gotta admit I am straying heavily into speculation, but I don't think that men of worth would deign to deal with textile armours--why? Because why the hell would they hide perfectly regal and suitable harness with cloth? It's counterintuitive--in essence, it's like my strategy for years, which is to strive to have harness which need not be concealed with cloth. Let the shining metal skin show to the world. "

The vast majority of art from England,France and the LowCountries for your period consistantly shows men at arms covering or partially covering their harness with cloth elements. Further, many extant wills and accounts list prices for cote-armour which are as much as or greater than the costs paid for harness. In other words, unless your portraying a a man at arms in the employ of John Hawkwood get a cote-armour you farb

It took me awhile to find it, but here is an example of the king of Navarre wearing a long sleeved jupon

That's an interesting form of garment. I haven't yet collated the appearances of garments of this particular type but prima facia it seems that it is of an entirely different character than the othe rgarments we're calling jupons. This sort of loose realativly shapeless gown seems to appear most often on Kings or men of very legendary repute (statues of Du Gesclin and Charlemagne from Chateau de Pierrefonds show them for example) suggesting to me that it is somewhat of a ceremonial and perhaps old fasion nature.


As to the actuall thread topic

Nice Job Your Exellency! I think the biggest improvement you could make would be to work toward achieving a more 14th century silhoette by either getting breastplate/coat of plates or possibly just padding up the chest of the coat while tailoring the lower half more tightly

[Baron Alejandro]

What a fascinating debate! V. enjoyable to read!

Thanks for the tip, Cet!

[white mountain armoury]

Fashionable Cotes can provide a visual identity, as opposed to yet another faceless white harness. Their use allows for conspicuous consumption. Fashion is the rule of the day, but what is fashionable on one area may be absurd in another. You will not see belled girdles in England, but will see them in Bohemia.
England also is not cutting edge in fashion in the period of this discussion.
I am also reminded of a scene in Henry the 5TH where Duaphin is bragging about the celestial print of his cote armour, and how fine it is.
Certainly he is the wealthiest man there, and could afford the finest cloth.

[Jehan de Pelham]

It's entirely likely that my decision is based on the possibility that textile coverings hide a lack of harness.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compaignye Store

[white mountain armoury]

It would seem if that was the case that they would be hiding a lack of a breast and back, next to the helm whats likely the most important part of their kit, a part they would most likely not be willing to go without.
I would think ordinances of the day would require men at arms to have a cuirass.

[David Teague]

It's entirely likely that my decision is based on the possibility that textile coverings hide a lack of harness.

Hmmm... why does the words "horse", "lead", "can't", and "water" come to mind?

Over a year ago, Gwen of Black Swan/ H.E. posted a link to web site of a group of reenactors that were doing the 14th century that she admired(I'm not sure where these guys were from, but the langage wasn't anything I could place). They had a group of photos on how their knight was (un)dressed as I remember. He looked a lot like the knight from Musee des beaux artsin, Dijon in the photos. He had on a Jupon. As he was undressed, the jupon covered his maille shirt, breastplate, spalders, and plate arms. Under his maille, he had a lightly padded CDB style arming coat with his arming points attached. His plate legs were pointed to the bottom of his arming coat. It looked like it worked just fine for him in the photos.

It looked cool.

I lost the link with a PC crash... I should ping Gwen to see if she still has it.

Cheers,

David.

P.S. Ya know, I owe you John, but that dosen't keep me from thinking you're being silly about the on NO armour under the Knightly Jupon thing.

P.P.S. Even so, if we are ever at the same event, I'll still spend it following you around as your spearman in my kettle hat.

DT

[Jehan de Pelham]

I'm sorry for the confusion. I mean the lack of harness TODAY. I know they wore armor under the textile coverings back then.

My decision to go bare is based on the tendency for textile coverings to conceal a lack of harness on modern armor replications.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Otto von Teich]

They may have worn them to help protect the armour from the scratches and dents of blows. Just a thought. It would be cheaper to replace than the armour, and if it would add a little life to the armour, and look spiffy, why not?........Otto

[Tailoress]

England also is not cutting edge in fashion in the period of this discussion.

I think the English just had a slightly different fashion than, say, the French, but it would be hard to qualify it as "not cutting-edge". There was so very much travel and cultural sharing between England and France during the 100 Years War. If Eustache Deschamps knew and respected Chaucer's work during his lifetime, then it's not too terribly large a leap to guess that an even easier cultural object, fashion, co-mingled in a timely manner (at least at the monied levels of society) as well.

-Tasha

[David Teague]

David,

Thanks again for some wonderful, dead-on-point examples! I had never seen that second example. I pledge to never again take the field with an unlined aventail. Not gonna do it!

---

Cheers,
Tim

Then my work here is done.

Lord of Linen, How much longer shall we have to face persecution from those who don't see the one true way to enlightenment (and a padded aventail or standard)? How long shall we suffer?

Spread the word, my Son.

Go with linen layers, Brother Tim.

[white mountain armoury]

Poetry and fashion is difficult to compare imho.

[Tailoress]

Poetry and fashion is difficult to compare imho.

What you're comparing is the traveling of items across the Channel -- whether in book form or people dressed in certain fashions, they all go across on a boat.

-Tasha

[David Teague]

Poetry and fashion is difficult to compare imho.

What you're comparing is the traveling of items across the Channel -- whether in book form or people dressed in certain fashions, they all go across on a boat.

-Tasha

Unlike the Scots in the North (who were the allies of the French), the English had a good amount of wealth among the nobles...

The richest man in Europe ( next to the Kings of Europe) during the mid- to - late 1400's was John of Gaunt, the Black Prince's younger brother.

So, I think in the Arms and Armour race, it was the fashion of each of the two counties that rules the day.

"Poetry and fashion is difficult to compare imho." I will point out that it was the French born queen of England (Eleanor of Aquitaine) who brought the concept of "Courtly Love" to the English where it became a major part of court life & knighthood making poetry a driving force of the 14th Century English and French Knights.

[Egfroth]

Murdock's right. Ditch the (shudder!) grille. Why do people wear those ghastly things? And get a nice visor appropriate to the helmet.

Oh, and you'd improve the look ten-fold by replacing your pants with hose. A much cleaner line with nothing flapping out the back (and it's what was worn in period). Wattsamatter? Ashamed of your legs?

The rest of the look is hella cool. Shame to spoil it with those two trifles . . .

Egfroth

Proud hose-wearer

[Tailoress]

So, I think in the Arms and Armour race, it was the fashion of each of the two counties that rules the day.

It would indeed be odd if the English nobility based in England (as opposed to those based in Aquitaine, say) were pointedly ignoring the extravagant fashion of their own Heir, the Black Prince, who did live in Aquitaine most of the time. His court was there, with much travel among nobles back and forth. Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince gives a detailed view into the high fashion of the English nobility, which only got more rigorously splendid in the time of Richard II. It's only my opinion, not a researched theory, but I think that the clothing fashion and armour fashion closely co-relate.

-Tasha

[Armoured Air Bear]

WOW- this is an interesting thread. I have not been on here for a few days.

I think that cote armour was worn for several reasons. here they are:

-to identefy the wearer (coat of arms, heraldric badge)

-to show wealth (like was mentioned above-how much good cloth was)

-the fashion of the day (military garments and armour often times followed civilian dress.) (for example puffed and slashed colthing- first worn by landskenechts, then imitated for civilian dress, then made into parade armour.) (another example- houplandes- first worn by nobles then worn as a military garment.)

-to trick the enemy- by this I mean if you are wearing clothing over your armour, your enemy will not know where to hit you as easily. you are always looking for a gap or opening in the armour, but, if it's covered how will you know where to stab? under that cote could be no armour at all or full cap a' pie, or anything in between, you really don't know. so it's an advantage to you.

-while it might not be the norm of the day- you personally like it. (and besides german armour is always differnt from the "norm")

now some downsides to cote armour:

-heat

-rusting armour underneath

-getting tangled or caught (Houplandes especially)

now, as for the coat of arms or device, why not paint it on? no, most likely it's not done (I know there are some exceptions) you either have it etched (later centuries though) or you wear clothing to identify yourself.

If I am incorrect in anything I said someone please correct me.

just my $.02 and the $.02 of several others,

Aaron

[Murdock]

i'm also gonna add
to stay warm

you ever wear mail and plate harness when it's about 30' or less?? in the wind?

You'll freeze yer butt off. Put a big puffy coat over it all and you stay warm armoured and combat effective.