The Armour Archive

I joined the Mafia. Comments are welcome, as are critiques, as long as you have some social skills about it!





Link to bigger and more pics.

Helm bought stock from Waldryk
Aventail by me.
Knees by Armourer Eric out in Cali! They Rock!
Greaves and cuisses by me, under the careful eye of Lord Uillieag of House of the Wolf.
EDITED TO ADD! I really need to thank Tasha for this as well. She was very patient in answering a lot of questions about 14th harness, and played a key role in me not looking more like a dork than I typically do.
So do I get my mug, or a horsehead in my bed?

Great job, your excellency! Tres sharp!

I have mugs and t-shirts. Which do you want? The mugs are $10 each, the t-shirts $16 for one (sizes Medium through XL). I'd love to send them out gratis, but the factor does not allow me to exercise largesse to my heart's desire, having an eye to avoiding the ruination of my house hold.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compaignye Store

Why no elbows? Are they hidden?

Looking good!

My only critique of your existing harness is that you seem to be suffering from floppy knee syndrome. You might want to try putting a strap behind the center of the cop. Find some good pics of realistic effigies and try to emulate the way the armour on them is strapped.

If I was going to be real picky, I might say that exterior cote armour wasn't worn during the splinted cuisse period, but I might be wrong. I'm just a simple viking after all, with no real grasp of all your futuristic doodads.

You definately have a solid foundation to put together an uncommonly sweet harness. You'd still get a horsehead from me though, for being late-period.

I *really* like your aventail. It's not too full or long and matches the height and gracefully tailored shape of what is often seen in late 14thc illuminations. I think you look very nice!

-Tasha

Jehan -

Your factor is very wise.

Tim -

Yes, they're hidden, as is most of my body harness.

Halfdan -

Personally, I loathe a strap behind the knee. Always tweaks my movement. They're strapped at the top lame and at the bottom one. The reason they 'look' big is because the pads beneath them are a little big. And I got yer horsehead riiiiiiiiiiiiiight here, sonny boy!

Tasha - thanks!

Looks great. Will you be adding arms as well in the future?

Also, you have the frame to pull off some nice body armour...

BaronMal wrote:Looks great. Will you be adding arms as well in the future?

Also, you have the frame to pull off some nice body armour...

I might get crazy and get myself a globose breastplate and go for the Hohenklingen look, but for right now this kit is at an acceptable level, at least to me.

Welcome to the family, have a cookie! Sharp kit, needs a plaque belt.
Cheers,
Leo

Baron Alejandro wrote:

BaronMal wrote:Looks great. Will you be adding arms as well in the future?

Also, you have the frame to pull off some nice body armour...

I might get crazy and get myself a globose breastplate and go for the Hohenklingen look, but for right now this kit is at an acceptable level, at least to me.

Dont get me wrong, I love what you have going on. Great start!

I might get crazy and get myself a globose breastplate and go for the Hohenklingen look, but for right now this kit is at an acceptable level, at least to me.[/quote]

YES GO FOR THE HOHENKLINGEN LOOK! (the most awesomest 14th century effegie ever) well at least I like it alot.

great start, keep up the good work,

Aaron

Hello Baron Alejandro,

Please don't kill me, my family, or plant a horse head in my bed as I think:

Your jupon needs to be padded, it looks more like a simple cotte in the photos.

You need to have a padded liner for your aventail... and I favor the look of a fuller aventail with the classic "French" look of the mid 1300's.



Those knees just don't look right, too large & slopply. Sir Marc D'Aubigny knees look much better in the photos.

Your turn will come as I'm going to try to put a 14th Century harness together this winter for my German Longsword studies... my plan is either
a "French" look with German elements or a "English" look with German elements... something that would work for a Scottish lesser Knight.

Cheers,

DT

David,

No worries. I am ridiculously hard to insult. The medical biz and the SCA will whip that right out of you. Tasha's prodded me about a padded aventail, and I have to admit, embroidering my arms on the front of a padded aventail would be some big pimpin'. Yeah, the jupon/gambeson thing might look a little funny because of the size of my hidden arms. Plus, a lot of my stuff has to be kind of acceptable across several kits ('cuz I'm po'), which is my my gauntlets also don't match my kit. Thanks for the tips!

Brother Logan,
A lot of people around me do casting, so that might actually happen at some point.

BaronMal,
Thanks for the compliments!

Baron Alejandro wrote:Yeah, the jupon/gambeson thing might look a little funny because of the size of my hidden arms.

The two could actually work together fairly well I think. In the photo of you sitting, you can see the bulk of your elbows especially underneath. If you padded the body and parts of the arms, as necessary for a more even look, but left it unpadded but stitched as if it were padded, it would (I think) help to conceal the concealed arour even more. Or something.

It is very nice looking kit if not a few centuries too late to REALLY rock. Your photos surprise me though, I had you pegged as being 15-20 years older. Not sure why, just one of those vague mental images that form over the internet.

Ingvarr wrote:Or something.

Um. Yeah. Sorry, I don't follow what you're getting at here - can you clarify please?

Ingvarr wrote:I had you pegged as being 15-20 years older.

It ain't the age, baby, it's the mileage.

Freakin Double post...

Please see below.

The knights in the above art have hidden mail shirts, breastplates, spalders, and arms... they lie under the padded jupon.... That's the French look.

Walter von Hohenklingen has a similar look with hidden arms, but he has his jousting breastplate over his jupon. (Note the "puffy"sleeves.)



Now I don't know where you'd embroider your arms as the padded liner for the aventail stays hidden and give you that cool look to the mail that we see in the above art (or you could add it to the front somehow like Walter von Hohenklingen did in the above photo...Doh!)

Cheers,

DT

sell out.....




Actually your rig looks pretty good. Maybe not complete or perfect, but it all looks like it goes together. That, I think is sometimes harder to accomplish than items from the same time period.

Baron Alejandro wrote:

Ingvarr wrote:I had you pegged as being 15-20 years older.

It ain't the age, baby, it's the mileage.

ain't the mileage, it's the road conditions

Some cloth buttons in a contrasting color down the front would look great.

Vitus,

That's a good tip! I might just do that!

Guy,

BWAHAH! I'm stealin' that one!

Aiden,

You're just jealous. thanks for the compliment!

David,

Thanks for clarifying! Embroidering my arms on a padded aventail like Ol' Walt is what I had in mind.

But...these changes and suggestions aren't going to happen for a while. I really really want to start on this set of central asian armour I've had floating around in my head for a while, so more modifications to the 14th C. kit might have to wait for a bit. Thanks for the suggestions! Keep them coming!

Welcome to "the Dark Side..." Kit looks great!

David Teague wrote:The knights in the above art have hidden mail shirts, breastplates, spalders, and arms... they lie under the padded jupon.... That's the French look.

I think that he could get away without padding the jupon if he were to place a globose under the cote. It would give the wasp waist without the excessive heat retention of a fully padded cote over foundation garments and harness.

There are plenty of illuminations that feature what appear to be both padded and unpadded cotes in the same battle. I can post some examples if necessary...

David Teague wrote:...Now I don't know where you'd embroider your arms as the padded liner for the aventail stays hidden ...

Except for Sir Walter's of course.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Some cloth buttons in a contrasting color down the front would look great.

No doubt, but is there a foundation for such a style?

Cheers,
Tim

T. Finkas wrote:

David Teague wrote:...Now I don't know where you'd embroider your arms as the padded liner for the aventail stays hidden ...

Except for Sir Walter's of course.

Please see "(or you could add it to the front somehow like Walter von Hohenklingen did in the above photo...Doh!) "

Doh!!! Sorry David.

Richard Larmer did a small herladic display like in the effigy. He made a small leather shield with his arms and attched it to his aventail.



My critique??

Kness do look floppy, get some lower profile pads abd youshould be able to knee strap em as they should be without problem.

I can't really see a belt, should have a plaque belt.

The coat does look w eee bit thin.

and then there is the Grill.


Over all very nice, i have to look for stuff to pic on.

Murdock wrote:Richard Larmer did a small herladic display like in the effigy. He made a small leather shield with his arms and attched it to his aventail.

Like this:

YES!!!

Like that

I knew someone else had one this Pennsic, i just couldn't remember who.



HEY AIR BEAR!!!!

Could you emboss my devices on one like that????

I've got the leather.

I'll make ya a shiled or something.

David Teague wrote:You need to have a padded liner for your aventail... and I favor the look of a fuller aventail with the classic "French" look of the mid 1300's.

Hi David,

The picture you posted is early 15thc from the looks of it. As for lined aventails, this is such an intriguing question but an open one, I think. Were they *all* lined as a matter of course and when you see the ones with padding on top like our friend Walter, what's the purpose of that -- to protect the steel from rust? I dunno. Also, would he have a lining underneath as well? I look at Walter and wonder if he's got an early version of a standard on and his padded aventail is the whole of his actual aventail (no mail attached to the helm directly).

Anyway, the shape and look of aventails varied a great deal if we're to trust the art (everything from English brasses to French/Italian manuscript illuminations), but one thing we don't see often enough in re-creation circles is a shorter, more tailored version even though it's supportable from the art of the late 14thc.

-Tasha

I don't think that these overcoats--whether an aventail or a lentner--protect the metal from rust. It's a sweatbox inside those padded garments, during exertion, which would only serve to undo any protection from the elements intended.

There's something else going on, and I can't figure out for sure what. The only thing I can figure is that these padded garments are in use by men at arms who--for reasons of economy or technology--don't have sufficient limb or torso protection from the arms they bear, and they require textile armors to make up for it.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compaignye Store

Jehan de Pelham wrote:There's something else going on, and I can't figure out for sure what. The only thing I can figure is that these padded garments are in use by men at arms who--for reasons of economy or technology--don't have sufficient limb or torso protection from the arms they bear, and they require textile armors to make up for it.

Good Jehan-

What leads you to the conclusion that these men at arms are not wearing armor beneath their jupon? It is clearly possible to wear harness beneath these garments - while mine is not padded in the picture above it certainly *could* be without hindering my range of motion.

As for it being an economic concern, there are at least two illustrations (which I can't find online right now ) in the Grandes Chroniques which show the king of France wearing such cote armor. Certainly France was suffering during the HYW, but I feel that the king was in all probability still well armored.

Respectfully,

Murdock wrote:My critique??

Kness do look floppy, get some lower profile pads abd youshould be able to knee strap em as they should be without problem.

I can't really see a belt, should have a plaque belt.

The coat does look w eee bit thin.

and then there is the Grill.


Over all very nice, i have to look for stuff to pic on.

Thanks Murdock, for the pointers!

About the knees - I hate behind the knee straps. Lower-pro pads are the answer for me!

I have a plain leather belt - one of these days I'll go off on a casting jaunt and get meself a plaque belt.

As far as the grill, you springin' for a faceplate there, son?!

Thanks for the compliments - hope your wife & boy are doing well.

I only say that there is not sufficient armor, not that there is no limb harness underneath. What I am implying is splinted or cuir boulli defenses of the earlier era which less well to do men at arms might cling to due to lack of means.

What I am saying is that I suspect these textile defenses to be a hallmark of the less well to do. As for the well to do or the regal, I am more familiar with depictions of these persons with gilded elbow cops and knee cops...so it might be a situation where we're looking at different primary sources.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compaignye Store