The Armour Archive

Harbor Freight has some heavyweight "flax canvas" welding blankets, I noticed. They're supposed to be flame retardant. From a Google search, it appears that this type of material is "nondurably flame retardant," meaning the chemical treatment is water soluble and comes out if the material gets wet.

Does anyone have experience with these blankets? Right now an 8-foot by 8-foot blanket is on sale for about $20. I'm just wondering if I could get enough of the flame retardant out by washing to use the canvas for clothing. (I assume that the flame retardant is not the same type that's used in little kids' pajamas.)

Thanks for any advice.

well, I have a few of those crappy welding blankets at the shop. I wouldnt call them flame retardant. maybe flame retarded, but not flame retardant at all. had one catch on fire from a plasma torch about ten freaking feet away. plus they really stink. as in they are truely odiferous. in fact, not only do they work like ass, they smell like ass. As far as washing the spooge out of em and using em for clothes, I suppose you could if you wanted to wear sackclothe. hey, if you touched the edge with a ciggarette, you could have sackclothe and asshes....

Just buy some real linen. Trying to make clothes out of that stuff would be fruitless and horribly unpleasant to wear.

Johnathon More wrote:well, I have a few of those crappy welding blankets at the shop. I wouldnt call them flame retardant. maybe flame retarded, but not flame retardant at all. had one catch on fire from a plasma torch about ten freaking feet away. plus they really stink. as in they are truely odiferous. in fact, not only do they work like ass, they smell like ass. As far as washing the spooge out of em and using em for clothes, I suppose you could if you wanted to wear sackclothe. hey, if you touched the edge with a ciggarette, you could have sackclothe and asshes....

I couldn't say it better. they are crap.

Thanks for the responses. I do have real linen, but I've had trouble finding flax canvas heavier than about 7 ounces (what fabrics-store.com sells). I already have hemp canvas that's 18 ounces. If the flax welding blankets are being compared to sackcloth, does that mean they're loosely woven? I'm interested in heavy, tightly woven flax canvas for fencing wear, especially for doublets and padded jacks.

Harbor Freight has plain canvas dropcloths. You might want to look into those.

Uric

HEre's just one source for a variety of weights of hemp canvas:

http://www.hempweave.com/ourtextiles.html

You may want to check out Lowes and Home Depot for same canvas drop cloths. They have differing weights also. If you have an Ollie's outlet (There is one in York PA) They had them for extremely low prices...

Flittie wrote:I'm interested in heavy, tightly woven flax canvas for fencing wear,.

That seems like a bit of overkill. Fencing wear in the SCA is meant to represent civilian clothing, not specialized arming garments. And in my experience, if you make it carefully most everyday fabrics will do, especially for heavy-rapier practice.

I did find a heavyweight linen twill on sale at fashionfabricsclub.com ($5 a yard! *gasp!*) of course, it's long gone, but they have a lot of fabric so it's worth checking them out occasionally

You can also look for suppliers for artists; though "linen canvas" may not be 100% linen.

Finally, I found a site that was catering to Arts-and-Crafts/Art Deco era decorators that sold imported linen canvas. It was pricey but... oh so nice.

I couldn't find the exact site again, but here's a similar one:
http://www.terrafirmalinens.com/index.php

Thanks for the further responses. I already have cotton canvas and hemp canvas. Cotton is cheap but not period. Hemp is period but not as good as flax at absorbing perspiration.

Baron Alejandro, I'd rather wear one layer of heavy canvas than four layers of trigger or light linen. My only current rapier garb, my sleeved jerkin has one layer of 18-ounce hemp canvas and one layer of heavy hemp twill, plus a decorative layer of linen on the outside. It probably is overkill, but since my local marshals do not have drop testers, I felt I needed to make something that would get past the pickiest marshals at events. I'd like to think that one layer of 18-ounce hemp canvas would pass a drop test, but I won't know until I can get to an event with a drop tester available.

It was my impression that 16th-century civilian clothing was made of fairly heavy wool and linen, at least in Northern Europe, because the climate was somewhat cooler than nowadays. Lighter fabrics for outer garments don't seem to have the right drape and look.

Also, I'm a small, light woman who bruises easily and has a low pain threshold. (In other words, I'm a wuss, a weenie, and a weakling.) Even through heavy canvas, I feel hard blows as painful. Also I'd like to do cut and thrust eventually, so I'll want at least a lightly padded jack.

Flittie

Nothing wrong with using hemp instead of flax; both used to be called linen.

Flittie wrote:Thanks for the further responses. I already have cotton canvas and hemp canvas. Cotton is cheap but not period. Hemp is period but not as good as flax at absorbing perspiration.

Baron Alejandro, I'd rather wear one layer of heavy canvas than four layers of trigger or light linen. My only current rapier garb, my sleeved jerkin has one layer of 18-ounce hemp canvas and one layer of heavy hemp twill, plus a decorative layer of linen on the outside. It probably is overkill, but since my local marshals do not have drop testers, I felt I needed to make something that would get past the pickiest marshals at events. I'd like to think that one layer of 18-ounce hemp canvas would pass a drop test, but I won't know until I can get to an event with a drop tester available.

It was my impression that 16th-century civilian clothing was made of fairly heavy wool and linen, at least in Northern Europe, because the climate was somewhat cooler than nowadays. Lighter fabrics for outer garments don't seem to have the right drape and look.

Also, I'm a small, light woman who bruises easily and has a low pain threshold. (In other words, I'm a wuss, a weenie, and a weakling.) Even through heavy canvas, I feel hard blows as painful. Also I'd like to do cut and thrust eventually, so I'll want at least a lightly padded jack.

Well, it's up to you.

You're wrong about cotton, though. It is period, esp. for late period spaniards, who got it from their moorish neighbors. The spanish word, 'algodon' was derived from the arabic, 'al qoton'. Sounds like cotton, doesn't it? There are several accounts of Ferdinand & Isabella driving out prominent moriscos who were cotton growers in southern Spain.

Furthermore, canvas is an insulator. You're holding in your heat when you need to be releasing it during cardiac activity like fencing. A relatively heavyweight linen is perfect for this (almost as good as silk, I've found. I don't use silk anymore because it degrades too quickly. But the picture of me fighting in Mattyd's SCADemo.com is a single-layer linen shirt and a double-layer silk doublet.

As far as drape & look, look at pictures of Italians and Spaniards. Many of them are wearing silk, which has a distinctly different drape. That drape also isn't just fabric - it's construction. Some of Isabella of Spain's gowns were so rigidly constructed they could stand on their own. Same way with Elizabeth II's. Some men's doublets had boning (heh) and stiffeners as well. Fabric isn't the only consideration.

As far as being a small, slight woman, my answer is 'parry'.

But to address that seriously, calibrate with your opponent before the bout.

Also, your choice of fabrics is aggravating the problem. If your opponent thinks you're wearing thick heavy garments to deaden blows, they'll accordingly adjust their calibration upwards so that they know you'll feel it. If they know you're just wearing bare minimums, they'll probably give you the barest touch they think you'll feel.

A padded jack for cut & thrust is a bad idea. The last thing you want is for your opponent to think he has to hit you harder with a steel sword.

But like I said, it's your call.

Alejandro, atlantian white scarf, former KRM

Baron Alejandro, I should have said that cotton clothing is not period, from what many people on this and other boards have said. It certainly wouldn't be accurate for my persona: a common Scottish Borderer of the 1540s. No cotton there, except as part of fustian.

When I speak of drape, I mean that light linen for an outer garment isn't going to look right. Thick wool is too warm for the summer here. My compromise is either heavy linen (or hemp) or thin wool over heavy linen (or hemp).

I'm new. I get hit a lot. Everyone I fight is stronger than me, and nearly all of them are bigger. I'm 5'1" and about 130 pounds, most of which is below my waist. What feels like a hard hit to me probably feels light to my opponent. I can't expect people to calibrate down for wimpy me, especially in a melee or when they're juiced on adrenalin. We're a "positive pressure" kingdom, not "lightest touch possible." I'm *not* having problems calling blows with the heavy canvas I'm wearing now. From what I've read on fencing e-mail lists, some people do wear heavy rapier gear but just learn to call blows on it. Lots of women (not me so far) wear rigid chest protection. They may not feel blows through it but they can call them anyway, and I haven't heard of male fencers automatically cranking up their blows against female fencers wearing the rigid chest protection. Further, I assume that the steel rapier helms don't cause calibration issues.

I suspect my rapier armor is indeed somewhat overengineered, but I want stuff that any marshal will pass, with or without a drop tester, year after year. Maybe as I get more experience, I'll toughen up and can go to the minimum armor standard, but right now I need the extra confidence from thicker armor. Nobody likes a little newbie lady fencer who keeps going, "Ouch, you hit me too hard!" Especially not in Atlantia.

I often purchase heavyweight and canvas weight linen but dont recall where I purchase it from, but my wife will know so I will ask her when she gets home.

Flittie wrote:When I speak of drape, I mean that light linen for an outer garment isn't going to look right. Thick wool is too warm for the summer here. My compromise is either heavy linen (or hemp) or thin wool over heavy linen (or hemp).

Two things I'll say on this, then let it lie. 1 - Lots of people wear light linen on their outerwear and look fine. Talk to Master Kit out of Isenfir, among many others. 2 - When people say 'wool', many people think 'army blanket'. Don't. Think more 'suiting-weight' wool. I've worn lightweight wool in southern Atlantia and been just fine.

I suspect my rapier armor is indeed somewhat overengineered, but I want stuff that any marshal will pass, with or without a drop tester, year after year. Maybe as I get more experience, I'll toughen up and can go to the minimum armor standard, but right now I need the extra confidence from thicker armor. Nobody likes a little newbie lady fencer who keeps going, "Ouch, you hit me too hard!" Especially not in Atlantia.

Two say I'll say on THIS, then let it lie 1 - Keep in mind the rule that says 'you can't wear anything you can't call a blow through', and 2 - There are plenty of diplomatic ways to say 'I'll take lighter.' Fighters of true skill & ability should be able to hit their opponent at whatever level their opponent desires.

Baron, I assure you that I will not wear anything that will prevent me from acknowledging blows. I already err on the side of acknowledging blows that are questionable. I am *not* trying to be a rhinohider (I know you didn't imply that); I feel blows just fine with what I wear now. Some of those blows still hurt. I practice with a number of other newbies who frequently hit me harder than they realize.

We can take up the calibration discussion on the Atlantian RapierNet if you like. I know your advice is well meant, but pain tolerance and blow acknowledgment vary a lot among individuals. I suspect that the flexibility of fabric or leather matters more than the weight of the material in regard to feeling blows.

The tough LH folks on here can wear heavy wool year-round and be comfortable. I should be able to manage in heavy linen or hemp.

Sorry to keep this going so long, but I wanted to express my viewpoint with all due respect to you. I look forward to meeting you at an event some time.