The Armour Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7357515.stm

It's Rome's 2761st birthday. These are reenactors parading through the streets to celebrate.

Man that's so cool.

Why do they have to pick some of the farbiest groups to photograph

Wow that would have been incredible to be there. Thanks for posting.

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:Why do they have to pick some of the farbiest groups to photograph

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:Why do they have to pick some of the farbiest groups to photograph

heheh how many things can you pick out that are wrong? ehhe i can see about 17 in the first picture

Wolf wrote:

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:Why do they have to pick some of the farbiest groups to photograph

heheh how many things can you pick out that are wrong? ehhe i can see about 17 in the first picture

Have at it... ready set go!

*shudder* Oh well, it was a good opportunity. Too bad it was wasted...

Wolf wrote:

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:Why do they have to pick some of the farbiest groups to photograph

heheh how many things can you pick out that are wrong? ehhe i can see about 17 in the first picture

Most likely armour is from old movie props made fro Cinecittà, the little Hollywood of Rome.

The culture of reenactment is still in its infancy here and likely this people are not real reenactors but extras.

I was at a huge Roman re-enactment last summer in Europe.

There was a large group of Roman re-enactors from Rom, and I thought I was on the set for some 1960s Sword and Sandal flick!

I do not know what it is, but everyone of the Italian groups I have seen that re-enact Roman must use Ray Harryhausen movies for documentation.

Leather armour, arm bracers, cheesy swords........MARS HAVE MERCY!

Wolf wrote:

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:Why do they have to pick some of the farbiest groups to photograph

heheh how many things can you pick out that are wrong? ehhe i can see about 17 in the first picture

Please do post your list of wrongs.

-dietrich

Avete!

Yeah, it sure would be cool to get in on that! In all fairness, it's mostly the first 2 photos that are full of farbiness, most of the others look a lot better. But here's what I can spot in the first picture:

1. Drum--No evidence for use by Roman army. And it's modern, anyway...
2. Bad armor--shoulder guards too wide, bad fittings, and RUSTY.
3. Modern buckle, that gleaming little rectangular one just to the right of his drumstick, though that is probably a lorica fitting. (Still wrong, just counts as #2 instead of #3!)
4. Focale (neckerchief) pinned with big penannular--no evidence.
5. Arm/wristguards--no evidence
6. Bad belt plates, and bad apron studs
7. Sword hilt is one of those cast zinc schlock pieces
8. Helmet is not a bad Coolus E, though it seems to be rusty steel instead of polished brass. Crest knob looks a little spindly. Could be worse!

Second photo:

1. Definitely crappy gladius
2. Even worse apron studs, even worse armguards!

Photo #6, an obvious MRL "Trooper" helmet, the bane of our existence.

That's all that pops out at first glance! Oh, well...

Happy birthday, Rome!

Matthew

#8 - I don't think the legions wore stiletto heeled boots until very late in their history

I thought you guys were just being harsh, and then I visited the site, and saw the big modern drum in the 1st pic. Sad really, they're squandering the resources they have in their backyard.

Still, I would have been there if I could.

Y'know - most of these guys probably aren't reenactors - they are most likel wearing armour that belongs to their churches and gets dragged out a few times a year for the Via Crucis, and other events.

Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:I thought you guys were just being harsh, and then I visited the site, and saw the big modern drum in the 1st pic. Sad really, they're squandering the resources they have in their backyard.

Still, I would have been there if I could.

Resources are in museums and it takes some homework to use them .... roman reenactment is not popular in the North, it is far more popular celtic or medieval reenactment , AFAIk in central Italy there are not too many reenactment groups.

There are more folk groups whose "tradition" is romantic, from the 19th century, a strange middle age derived straight from Viollet Le Duc.

In any case reenactment is costly and Italy is in a deep crisis, our wages are the lowest in EU, so most people won't invest much in costumes and armor, even when they would like to do so.

I'm striving to improve my group but I have a lot of problems, either for costs or for the fact that reenactment is a very young activity and state contributions are pretty much low: reenactors get at most a gas and food reimbursement for an event, even when they put up a show that attracts some thousand people.

Money goes for dubious quality art exhibitions that are useless in most cases, sine there is already plenty of museums for that.
Oops

I forgot to say that many people come from the world of roleplay, and they are young, mostly "educated" by 300 style movies ... a bunch of boys that won't do much good either.

I would accept anybody under 25 only after serious examination .... actually among them I have a sole friend, who is pretty serious and is a student , what a case, at a classical lyceum ...

"our wages are the lowest in EU"

Lower than Poland?

Chello!

At least none appeared to be wearing Nikes or East German officer boots.

Tony

Hey! I saw the charge of the tennis shoes in Sparticus. That's documentation right?

I do know that the Italian group I saw in Europe this past summer, were possibly one of the worst Roman groups I have ever seen. They were mostly wearing the hideous helmets from the TV series Rome.

They could have at least done something about the RUST!!! Tragic.

I'm an admirer of Pax Augusta. I can't read most of thier website, but they look like great kits in the pics.

http://www.paxaugusta.net/0Accueil/0cadreaccueil.htm

There are probably just 2 groups in Italy that do roman's reenactment right. about the others...... well, reenactment is quite a new thing here, like almost everything, we are always the last. As you may expect everyone of us started with combat boots and improbable kits. the difference is between who slower or faster improve, and who simply blame the others and after 10 years is still wearing the same kit.

I know how hard core a lot of people are on the Archive, I'm not really, and I'm not sure what people squandered...

Probably less than 1% of the human population would comment on the things people have noticed. It's great for people here, but I really don't see it as something that hurt the event at all.

*shrug*

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:I know how hard core a lot of people are on the Archive, I'm not really, and I'm not sure what people squandered...

Probably less than 1% of the human population would comment on the things people have noticed. It's great for people here, but I really don't see it as something that hurt the event at all.

*shrug*

Apparently, you do not have the same level of interest that we Roman enthusiasts have. Many of us take pride in the recreations we make, and use.

There is something viscerally awful about marching through Rome in stuff that any competent historian of the period could tell you is correct. This is what I mean by squandering. I wouldn't want to march around Hastings in bad English gear either.

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:I know how hard core a lot of people are on the Archive, I'm not really, and I'm not sure what people squandered...

Probably less than 1% of the human population would comment on the things people have noticed. It's great for people here, but I really don't see it as something that hurt the event at all.

*shrug*

Apparently, you do not have the same level of interest that we Roman enthusiasts have. Many of us take pride in the recreations we make, and use.

Very true, but I don't think that matters in any way to the majority of the populace.

In fact, it's more likely to get a wide eyed kid to start finding interest in things. I don't know how many people were involved, but parades have budgets. If it was big, which I seem to think it was, then you rent what you can.

Buying historically accurate armor and props isn't really in the budget of most organizations.

All that said I don't know all the info around that parade, but arming even 50 people with accurate armor at the right price can be trying.

I was told that many of the Italian "reenactors" belong to groups funded by municipalities... Hollywooditis is a powerful virus!

Some American groups suffer from some form or another of the same "itis"..

The there're the guys petitioning to join our group with kit they bought off of some website or Yucky-Bay.. and so much of it so very wrong... and clubs here in the States wearing bracers or wristlets of some sort... armor that doesn't fit... helmets tied on with string...

We made our share of mistakes to be sure... the pics from 15 years ago are.... shudder so bad... and are now relegated to our non-public albums.. Header: What Not To Do.

The Italian guys aren't even allowed to display certain historic emblems... "fascist symbols" .. makes it a bit tougher.

earnest carruthers wrote:"our wages are the lowest in EU"

Lower than Poland?

I mean teh former Western bloc.

The countries that were with you after 1945: obviously our well being is better than former Warsaw pact countries ... and this is not so true anymore.

Among teh post 1945s we rank the lowest, with the highest prices.

Five years ago I found Paris cheapest than my town.

That was the fucking shit.

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:Probably less than 1% of the human population would comment on the things people have noticed. It's great for people here, but I really don't see it as something that hurt the event at all.

While I will agree that it will not hurt the show I disagree about people not noticing off stuff. I do upwards of 20 shows and demos for mixed groups and kids a year and trust me they notice. They pick out all sorts on minor details and ask all sorts of good questions even kids as young as 7. I have even had people make wrinkled nosed comments about LARP, Ren Faire, or SCA groups they have seen before they come to a historic time line about how wrong they looked. Frankly we are not fooling anyone.

"There is something viscerally awful about marching through Rome in stuff that any competent historian of the period could tell you is correct. This is what I mean by squandering. I wouldn't want to march around Hastings in bad English gear either"


Yes for historicity, assuming there are absolute knowns etc and the idea is to portray an absolute recreation - which is in actuality impossible. But that is the preserve of reenactors and enthusiasts, who tend to be microscopic in their view point.

No for a pageant, when I say pageant I mean the traditional walks and displays where the participation of he people is the important part not the accuracy of the kit. You can rest assured that medieval people were equally adept at making crap Roman kit for their plays as the local civic body in Rome is now for civic events.


I have seen it in France, where in Le Puy en Velay, the town body revived a 16thc archery festival, we as reenactors were there for the fighting and 'animation' and the rest of the public took part, whether they worse bri-nylon, knitted mail, rugs or whatever. Result was a major interest in their history, nylon nothwithstanding.

The purpose of those events is way beyond thread counting, caligae straps, madder dye or imported Spanish vermillion.

Having also been to hastings 2006, I am sure the others that did it, many of whom post on this site, will agree that at a certain distance much of what we wore merged into one 'average' look and the battle sequencing was so artificial that no matter how good the kit was - in the main very good - it was still an entertainment. The aim of the event was to provide a spectacle on a scale that had not been attempted before, with that comes a cost, the cost being that it is impossible to get everyone kitted out to the absolute.

Did the onlookers gain more value because the kit standards was overall good or did it make no difference? Does inaccurate kit make one less interested 'overall' in ones nation's history? I wouldn't have thought so.

Needless to say it was an excellent event, but more because of numbers and an 'average' good look than accuracy.

I still can't quite grasp the concept of "It doesn't matter since the public doesn't know any better." In my book, the ignorance of the public is WHY we try to do things RIGHT, not an excuse for misleading them further. Even if an event such as the parade shown above is not meant to be educational, trust me, people will absorb it and base their view of reality on it, just like they do with movies. In other words, it teaches them.

I certainly agree that the microscopic level of detail for a parade or pageant group is largely irrelevant compared to any serious living history group. If you are just storing a mass of gear to put on bodies for parades, I'd highly recommend washable modern fabrics, stainless steel or aluminum armor, urethane coatings to prevent rust or tarnish, etc. Heck, doesn't bother me if everything is plastic! Just make sure it's painted to look like shiny metal.

In the case of the group above, the amount of visible variation implies to me that this is indeed some sort of reenactment group, with a lot of individually owned gear. IF that is the case, they certainly should have enough pride to require rust-free armor for the anniversary of Rome! But if this is just a pageant group, and all the gear is group-owned, well, I still don't see how such rust got through. A couple guys could have spent a day or two cleaning things up, and then spray-varnished everything to protect it. Plus, they could have saved several hundred bucks by NOT equipping every man with leather armguards! You can make an amazing amount of improvement to a bad-looking group simply by omitting unnecessary bad gear.

In the end, I don't see how a more accurate group is less exciting or appealing. Same goes for movies--why not just give those plastic props a slightly more historical shape and use silver or gold paint instead of black or brown? Save time and money getting that silly "patina" just right, AND the members of the audience who truly revel in their ignorance can still be ignorant and perfectly entertained.

You wouldn't put more money and effort into teaching school kids that 8 time 6 is 52, or that Milwaukee is the capital of Poland, and then just shrug and say that those who are really interested can look up the right answers later, would you? Why do the same thing with history? I'm not saying that you have to teach calculus in the third grade, just that the basic information presented can be better right off the bat, to everyone's benefit and gain.

Valete,

Matthew

"I certainly agree that the microscopic level of detail for a parade or pageant group is largely irrelevant compared to any serious living history group. If you are just storing a mass of gear to put on bodies for parades, I'd highly recommend washable modern fabrics, stainless steel or aluminum armor, urethane coatings to prevent rust or tarnish, etc. Heck, doesn't bother me if everything is plastic! Just make sure it's painted to look like shiny metal. "

To my mind, that's the perfect attitude. You're willing to make concessions to price and to maintainability but not to research. That seems to me the perfect balance between looking like 300 extras, and kicking people out because they're using modern mild steel.

As long as they could get drunk afterwords and play a round of plumbata lawn darts the day was not wasted....

"It doesn't matter since the public doesn't know any better."

Well, I certainly do not support that notion, because we know that we may as well just pack up and do something else.

However, there are degrees of importance, in the case of say a story about Rome, what is more important, the clothing worn by reenactors/extras or the story itself?

You can have a thousand people dressed up in the most perfect kit - or assumed to be by those that are dictating that - and yet they still wont necessarily be able to carry off how to wear it, do anything in it, or even know about the period they are representing.

The reality is that not all reenactment is the same, they do not have the same agendas nor remits. My group goes for naturally dyed hand sewn wools, turnshoes, decent harness as a benchmark to achieve and we are getting there, we stop at single piece sallets or metallurgicaly correct knives for example.

I use only materials (where possible) I know to have been used at the time for my writing and other visual activities -, but also I know from practical experience that if I did not have oak gall ink I could still get some people to write with a quill and some quink, because the lesson there is as much the process as it is the materials, in fact more so.

Authenticity, for that is what this is about is more than just the trappings, you can create mood and educate people without madder dyed cloth, or hand raised sallets, oak tanned caligae, depending on that the specific object of education is, if clothing, then of course you should be able to sort that one.

All the other stuff is additional and only works if delivered properly, if not it is a waste of resources for which most people, other than the people wearing/using wont even notice.

I agree that films teach people, we have the likes of Braveheart, the Patriot and other such gems that 'inform' us, much to our teeth clenching frustration.

Most supposedly 'accurate' portrayal is a selfish activity, the education to the public is a by-product for most reenactors, heck even being near the public can give many reenactors conniptions, which is sad tbh.

My kit is for me, it is a sum of research, some good, some bad, mostly on-going and neverending, but I don't do it primarily for the erudition of the public, I could not presume that what I am doing is 'right' especially in a historic context where most of what we do is intelligent guesswork and in reality the vast majority of the kit used resembles only slightly that used in the past. Or how far does one need to go to convince the public that what they are seeing is 'the truth'?

I am very much an authenticrat given the opportunity, but also know that what we do has many levels and the public, is not as daft as it might seem to some reenactors.