The Armour Archive

Well, I was bored so I decided to make a pencil holder. I thought I might try making desk accessories with a "medieval" feel, so I started with this.

This obviously isn't a copy of a medieval piece, but do you think it has a medieval feel? For you professional types out there, would this kind of thing sell well? I would like to get a blotter and "in/out boxes" added to the mix, as well as maybe some business card holders. I also have plans in the works to make blueprint carrying tubes for architects.

What worries me is that my stuff does not look prefessional. If you look at all the leather desk sets on the 'net, they're all nice and cleanly finished, and are machine sewn. Mine doesn't look like that. It's hand sewn, and the overall appearance is not as clean as the professionaly made ones. Do you think that will hurt my chances?

Thanks,
Cat

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/ph1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/ph2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/ph3.jpg[/img]

I have the same problem. I love to make things. But my craftsmanship is, well, crap. Selling leatherwork can be done -- but only for the obviously high-end stuff. I've seen thousand-dollar tooled-and-painted rifle bags. But there are so many hobbyists like us that anything that's not obviously top-end, you're not going to get back enough to make it worth your time.

Doesn't stop me from making the stuff, though.

It's not medieval looking. Sorry.

Cool? Yes. Medieval? No.

Medieval floral work, even in my neck of the woods where we have (a TON) more eastern influence, is always more concrete. Even with spiky acanthus, you know exactly what you're looking at.

Yours is Rorschach'd and slightly abstract. It's nice work, but if you're going to sell it, I wouldn't go towards the medieval crowd.

EDIT: Except maybe Alejandro.

A *really NICE* blueprint carrier might sell, btw, and do well -- plus, the larger space would give you tons of possibilities to play with. The desk stuff I wouldn't go for. High end, high end, and even higher end, is where you want to go.

The idea is GREAT- I've been meaning to do the same thing for myself once I'm not ashamed of my tooling. I think that if you can manage to capture the medieval "feel" in modern office accessories you'll be minting money.

Yes, I guess this design is a bit off for medieval. The theme doesn't really HAVE to be medieval I guess, I just would like it to look "old". Know what I mean? Even if I had found a more medieval floral pattern, the fact that it's a pencil holder might still throw the look off.

I have been speaking with an architect about specifics for blueprint tubes. I've got some dimensions to work with, and some tube material suggestions. Once I am able to buy the plastic tube blank, I may go ahead and make one up.

I'm giving breifcases some thought too, but again I will have the problem of my stuff not looking like the professionals. I think a leather sewing machine might help with that, but I can't afford one.

Cat

I seriously covet a Tippman or its equivalent, too. There are good floral motifs out there... the "crawling ivy" type looks old, is medieval, and also has a classic feel to it that's not going to be edgy enough to make the business types feel uncomfortable showing it around (since that's a serious concern -- I know a lawyer who was told by his firm to stop driving his Ford Ranger and get a presentable car, or else, b/c his lowbrow Bubbamobile was scaring away clients).

Michael,
I also think that the idea might have some merit. The desk stuff I saw on the net, while beautiful and well made, all looked the same. You get a choice of modern or ultra modern.

If someone had an antique theme in their office, something like this would go better with the decor. Well, they could have any theme really, as any type of design could be tooled on the stuff. It could have a rain forest theme, an art deco theme, egyptian theme, etc. I just don't think my stuff looks prefessional enough to not look like a flea market find. It may be a little early for me to be thinking about doing this, but I still think it's a good idea.

Russ,
Do you happen to have a link where I could find some more medieval looking floral/viney designs? I looked around, but didn't find much that was useable.

Thanks,
Cat

Hrm... mine is all in books... I'd do a hunt around for manuscripts online, and start looking at how they tie things off into flowers, etcetera. Then start looking at how you'd take the style into a given set of dimensions. After all, anything you use is going to have to be seriously adapted, anyway.

Cat, I wouldn't worry too much about your stuff not looking like it came out of a factory someplace and was one of a few thousand exactly like it and completely indistinguishable.

People looking for original artwork that they can use on a daily basis aren't looking for that superslick ultrafinished pooped out of a machine look

Your pieces are handcrafted. That's a positive selling point. You're doing good handcrafting. That's a positive selling point. For a cottage craftsperson such as yourself, the benefit of a sewing machine isn't that it will improve your work, but that it will increase your rate of production and so increase your income

Something I would suggest about coloring for the kind of market you're looking into. Lose any black dye. Go with saddle tans, mahogany, and some antiquing. You want the leather to be leather colored, just richer, older. It should show character and not really look like you just made it last week

People who are really looking for leather accessories are generally after something more "natural" - no matter how artificially we may be producing it

And again, don't try to compete with the machine/factory made cases. Your handcrafting is a positive feature, every one of yours is unique, an original work. Doesn't mean you get to be sloppy, but your target is first rate hand crafted, not identical to machine made.

One-of-a-kind, handcrafted in the USofA, functional works of art.

Charge 'em extra for it.

Russ Mitchell wrote:Hrm... mine is all in books... I'd do a hunt around for manuscripts online, and start looking at how they tie things off into flowers, etcetera. Then start looking at how you'd take the style into a given set of dimensions. After all, anything you use is going to have to be seriously adapted, anyway.

Russ is on what I think is the right track. I found some online libraries of illuminated mansucripts a couple of years back. Spent hours just pouring through pages of illumination from the time period I was targetting to develop a sense for the aesthetic - and some confidence that not all of the period artists who did this stuff were incredible geniuses (there is, thank goodness, some pretty crude stuff that has survived. It helps remind us that our efforts are not truly pitiful, but only suffer in comparison to works by artists who were head and shoulders above the crowd in their own day).

I bet Karen's links would take you swiftly to the right kinds of places if you looked for manuscripts. I spent a bunch of time just brute-forcing my way through a Google search. Much better to take advantage of Karen's good work

Kilkenny wrote:
Russ is on what I think is the right track. I found some online libraries of illuminated mansucripts a couple of years back. Spent hours just pouring through pages of illumination from the time period I was targetting to develop a sense for the aesthetic - and some confidence that not all of the period artists who did this stuff were incredible geniuses (there is, thank goodness, some pretty crude stuff that has survived. It helps remind us that our efforts are not truly pitiful, but only suffer in comparison to works by artists who were head and shoulders above the crowd in their own day).

IMHO


The stuff that tends to survive is the stuff that is flashier.
The everyday stuff gets used a lot and gets worn out. Some
of it survives, but more as an accident than a deliberate
"let's keep that" that you tend to get with higher end stuff.
And museums tend to show off the flashier stuff because that
is what the unwashed masses want to see.

The everyday stuff is there but you have to look a lot harder
to see it. So the first 100 examples of something we see are
the flashier ones.

( unless it's a really cool unusual thingie that is cool even if
it is not flashy )

That tends to push our opinion of what to expect out of our
own skills to a higher level.

( hope that makes sense.... Lawnmower break, hot and tired
FREAKING humid here today..... I need gills to breathe )

Thanks for the tips, info and encouragement! I will do a search for mauscripts and see what I can find.

BTW, the color on this is Cordovan Brown. It's hard to tell because it's so dark, but it has a richness that you can see in the light. I don't think I've used my black dye for more than a year, and don't really plan to use it much anymore at all. Unfortunately, I bought it back when I was first starting out and I bought the big bottle. I have no idea what I'm going to do with all of that....

Thanks again!
cat

Cat wrote:Thanks for the tips, info and encouragement! I will do a search for mauscripts and see what I can find.

BTW, the color on this is Cordovan Brown. It's hard to tell because it's so dark, but it has a richness that you can see in the light. I don't think I've used my black dye for more than a year, and don't really plan to use it much anymore at all. Unfortunately, I bought it back when I was first starting out and I bought the big bottle. I have no idea what I'm going to do with all of that....

Thanks again!
cat

Just goes to show that between monitors, cameras and eyes, we can't trust the colors we see

You might want to do some experimenting using a bit of the black dye mixed in some neatsfoot oil and applied working from the edges inward, so it will fade out -darkest at the outer edge, fading away as it comes in. And then hit the whole piece with a saddle tan. It can make the interior areas of a design pop in ways that one uniform overall color just can't.

Of course, it's a technique to practice a bunch on scrap before trying on a project. And one good thing about the Fiebing's dyes - they keep pretty darn well in the bottle. It's taken me years to get through some of mine, and they've stayed good from top to bottom.

Kilkenny wrote:
You might want to do some experimenting using a bit of the black dye mixed in some neatsfoot oil and applied working from the edges inward, so it will fade out -darkest at the outer edge, fading away as it comes in. And then hit the whole piece with a saddle tan. It can make the interior areas of a design pop in ways that one uniform overall color just can't.

I am SO gonna have to try that.

Michael de Buslingthorpe wrote:

Kilkenny wrote:
You might want to do some experimenting using a bit of the black dye mixed in some neatsfoot oil and applied working from the edges inward, so it will fade out -darkest at the outer edge, fading away as it comes in. And then hit the whole piece with a saddle tan. It can make the interior areas of a design pop in ways that one uniform overall color just can't.

I am SO gonna have to try that.

The guys doing motorcycle seats use it a fair bit. When you have a curved edge that's falling away, and you shadow it a bit with this technique, very dramatic effect. It also lends itself to being really subtle, if you're subtle with it

Leatherworkers.net the people over there have incredible depth and breadth of experience and there are always new/different ideas being shared.

Pencil holder? My dear confused woman that piece of ART is a dice cup! How much do you want for it? As always, I am greatly impressed by your work!
Cheers,
Leo

Cat: What you are questioning is the difference between mass produced commodity and _ART_.

You make ART. Functional, useful, gorgeous, but _ART_ nonetheless. Due to the fact that it's hand done, and hand stitched, no two are alike.

Cash in on that niche. It's truly where your stuff belongs.

You cannot compete with mass produced, gang made crap from India or China or Indonesia, so don't.

Maeryk wrote:You make ART. Functional, useful, gorgeous, but _ART_ nonetheless. Due to the fact that it's hand done, and hand stitched, no two are alike.

Cash in on that niche. It's truly where your stuff belongs.

Yup. What he said.

Do not - DO NOT - try to compare to mass-produced stuff at any level, as they are honestly not comparable in the eyes, minds, and pocketbooks of those people who care and know/appreciate the difference. Not everyone does... If someone says "wow... why is this $50 when I can get one for $5 at such-and-such", SUGGEST they do.

Even if it's the "same thing" - the original Mona Lisa, or a modern giclee canvas repro... The repro is alright... the original, a treasure.

Personally, I'd rather give you $500 for a nice desk set that is a one-of-a-kind (and my own taste) than drop $100 at Staples for one... Unfortunately, I'm in no need or position to do either... but if you can connect with folks who are...

So maybe that's the trick, folks... brainstorm on possible marketing possibilities for Cat? I've got my eyes and mind wide open.

Honestly Cat,
I think it turned out VERY good looking. One thing I have done when I have done bottoms on cylinders was to mold the leather up into the base so that it sat flat. It also made sewing a little easier. I will have to see if I have any pictures of the leather buckets I made for Valley Forge. I also use a different stitching technique on the side seams.

I high recommend Al Stohlman's book on Hand stitching leather. All sorts of easy to follow steps.
I always wanted a tippman stitcher too, but I figured $1200 was a bit much to pay for something I would end up using rarely. Too many people I deal with ask for handstitching. I have three Singer industrials that I use for different projects when they are working. I have two down right now, and no work, so I haven't pursued the parts.

Again, thanks so much guys!

Aaron and Maeryk,
I know what you're saying about the difference between hand made and machine made, but I'm just worried folks will want the sleek look of machine made pieces for this kind of thing. After all, "hand made" doesn't always mean it's nicer than machine made, and I think there's a few things I need to get better at to make me feel a bit better about offering these types of items for a price that makes it worth while. Maybe I'm worrying too much. I guess if the stuff didn't sell, I would be out my time, but not too much in materials cost. Well, except for the blueprint holders...one place was charging $65 for the plastic tube blank in the size I needed. A bit scary to say the least. The architect I spoke to said I could use schedule 20 PVC or rigid landscaping drainage pipe, but I can't seem to find a place to buy them.

Johann,
I think I know what you mean about the bottom being molded. I have seen one example of a waxed table case with the lid and bottom done this way, but I have yet to come across a document holder done like that. Then again, I've only got a few pics of extant examples, and they don't really show the tops and bottoms so it's possible some are done that way. When I make the long tube for the blueprint carrier, I think I will HAVE to do it that way because I wouldn't be able to reach it for stitching if I had to come in from the inside.

Brother Logan,
I guess this could be a dice cup. Might be a bit big for that, though. I'm not sure how much I'm going to ask for this, or where I'm going to put it up for sale. I had thought about taking this to one of the consignment places my brother told me about (artsy fartsy type shop), but this is just a prototype. There's at least one thing I would do differently for the next one, so I may throw this one up in the classifieds and auction it off.

Thanks again!
Cat

Lowes, Home Depot, and most hardware stores are gonna carry soil pipe, which is what you want.

Soil pipe..is that what it's called? I will check to see if they have it. I've been searching on line, but it's all been the flexible stuff, which I can't use.

Thanks again,
Cat

Cat wrote:
Do you happen to have a link where I could find some more medieval looking floral/viney designs? I looked around, but didn't find much that was useable.

[img]http://www.kb.nl/galerie/100hoogtepunten/09_72a22_6r.jpg[/img]
I am using this one to base a scroll off of.

Very nice... I'm inspired by this. Would love for my leather carving to look so clean... !

Cat,

Unless you need a plastic liner for the print tube, go to a post office or office supply store and get a mailing tube. It should be between 2-3 feet in length (architectural drawings are on 2' x 3' sheets.)

Much cheaper, and I think it would work just fine for your purposes.

For a modern audience you might look at the wallpaper designs of William Morris. I think the copyright on the original designs has been maintained somehow so you'd have to modify the design to make it your own.

Russ Mitchell wrote:I
It's not medieval looking. Sorry.

Cordially, I disagree on the grounds that nobody (even in Academia) has the power to designate something medieval or not. I don't believe it's quite so cut & dried.

I wouldn't have even said that the earlier project was medieval; but it is medievalOID, as is this. We all have different, equally valid opinions on the aesthetic.

Yes. You've read mine.

Thanks for all the suggestions! This will all be very helpful!

Cat