Exposed plastic-what can we do about it?

[Owyn]

I'll admit to being a bit confused here. I've re-read the posts in question, and the one thing I can think which might be causing the issues here is Jehan's repeated use of the term "true harness". Of course, the "true harness" for Sir Mord's place and time in history might be a very thick and well-felted wool shirt... Hardly the same as a 14th or 15th century knight!

And there has been backlash against those who try to portray earlier periods - enough to make folks touchy, to be sure. People who use an earlier period persona and wear full-body mail are usually accepted well, but those who wear the much more common armor - none (with the mandatory sports gear hidden under their garb) - are often frowned on or even held in disdain.

This has less I think to do with plastic, and more to do with what precisely is perceived as "true harness". To be fair, there are undoubtedly some folks out there who grab some hockey or lacrosse gear, toss a tunic and pants over it, and call themselves early period in order to avoid the work to acquire or difficulty to wear armor from some other period.

And then there are others who research period patterns for that tunic and pants; who trim their garments with tablet weaving; who make or purchase true recreations of museum buckles, pins, brooches, and such. They try to look the part, in every way they possibly can within the SCA rules.

That *is* 'true harness'.

(Edit: for that period and place - not that someone from another period and place would consider it so, but in the SCA context, all pre-1600 periods should be treated equally, and their assorted accoutrements of war likewise.)

And true harness for those places and times, for safety within SCA rules, pretty much requires the use of plastic. The person trying to achieve a high level of appearance covers that plastic - and then like I said, goes the extra mile to make their appearance as perfect as they can to what was worn in that time.

I don't think Jehan meant to imply that "all plastic is bad". But rather, was pointing out that in the SCA, we have two axis in which we can aspire to accomplishment - prowess, and appearance.

Last weekend, a friend of mine commented that there are two invite-only events at Pennsic he could be working to attend - Unbelted Champions, and the CotT. The one is greatly focused on prowess, the other on appearance (and both on other things as well, but the dichotomy is clear between the two). His "could have been yanked from a 14thc battlefield" gear is his own effort to achieve the greatest level in the appearance axis. I have another friend who travels all over the kingdom every spring in order to be able to compete in the Unbelted champs event each summer.

Can one do both? Absolutely, and those are the folks Jehan complimented so eloquently at the end of his first post. Does the use of plastic deter one from the achievement of a high level of period appearance? I'd say it can (but then, so can use of metal, or leather, or any other material if poorly done) but that a well done hidden plastic kit can look as period as the most authentic metal harness one could wear.

Both can be "true harness". I don't think Jehan meant to imply otherwise.[/i]

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Ohboy.

[Maeryk]

All I'm saying is that throwing a tabard over a badly designed hunk of plastic merely makes it look to the eye like someone draped a tabard over a badly designed hunk of plastic.

And that I'm totally willing to sit down and chat with Joe about where he wants to go, and give him my experiences to add to his mental pool of "ideas".

Not much more than that.. but that _most_ plastic pretty much looks like ass. That said, I've seen people do STUNNING work with Plastic. Fitzgaelen's velvet covered breastplates being a prime example of that.

but a lot of it looks like.. well, like someone is wearing a barrel. Putting a tabard over it does nothing to fix that look.

[Owyn]

Sir Mord, a few additional comments...

The use of plastic for fighting is a matter of choice; I see it as a matter of the ethics of consent. An axiom of this matter is that you can not force someone to do something, without either obtaining their premission (consent) or justifying that their action is harmful (arrest).

This does not hold true with what is essentially an open membership club. If the rules change tomorrow to "no exposed plastic in combat in the SCA", then SCA members will comply, or not fight. There is no ethical charge in the matter. If enough people don't like a new rule, they can work to get it changed, or found their own club with their own rules.

In a club/organization like the SCA, the majority CAN force their will on a minority. They grant their permission by continuing to participate.

That said, I doubt that we will EVER see a complete ban on plastic - it is too critical to safety for people who are trying to portray too many places and times in history (such as yourself). We have seen - and will continue to see - events and even whole Kingdoms ban exposed plastic. Which is well, if the people there perceive that exposed plastic does harm to the enjoyment of others at the event.

Lastly, Sir Mord, I think that your ire is ill-spent here. I believe if you took the time to re-read Jehan's posts, you'd find that he *agrees* with you, and that you are insulting a man who is defending your case. Instead of jumping to the attack at the slightest hint of offense, perhaps a more thoughtful consideration of the discussion would be warranted in the future, before you light off your flames.

[Joseph]

If there were more Jehans than Josephs in the SCA I'd be standing in line to join and going to events every weekend. As it is, I often find myself rather embarassed to even be included in the same hobby.

thanks for the new signature...

This does not hold true with what is essentially an open membership club. If the rules change tomorrow to "no exposed plastic in combat in the SCA", then SCA members will comply, or not fight. There is no ethical charge in the matter. If enough people don't like a new rule, they can work to get it changed, or found their own club with their own rules.

In a club/organization like the SCA, the majority CAN force their will on a minority. They grant their permission by continuing to participate.

I think you're stuck on this minority/majority thing and who weilds the power. How many Kings win in full 110% harnesses? Many look great but behind the fine surcoats are alot of plastic or very little armour/protection at all.
Ultimately I feel as if you shouldn't focus on what there is more or less of except when talking about new members, new families, new fighters.
I am sure that the flashy new kits help yield in some new people yet its also the easy accessibility of plastic that will help catch some of the excitement of a new /young/ poor fighter who is just wants to give it a whirl.
There is a way that a balance can exist and both interests are served and I think it comes to the essense of this post and that is seeing that plastic is covered at least by some think fabric. Even a no persona having stick jock like me figured that out less then 5 months into "armour".

[Owyn]

Not really stuck on anything, Joseph. Mord had said something about it only being ethical to make rules under certain conditions, and I was replying to that idea. Think about it - we've long since seen Atlantia move to enforce hidden plastic rules, and if I recall rightly they're not alone. I've heard debate about setting similar rules in place for the East, too, and I'm sure other kingdoms are having similar discussions.

I absolutely agree that there's a place for plastic - covered or hidden, unless it is replicating laquered leather a la Japanese. And I am the LAST person you will hear beating anyone up for having bought or made poor-looking gear for their starter kit. I'll be honest - my own armor would fail Atlantia standards, although it's something I'm happily working hard to correct this Spring.

What I do think is that a stronger period appearance can be won at our events by encouraging or enforcing standards. And I think that the boost to our collective experience is worth the effort of trying to make that happen. Improving period appearance on the field should be something we all strive for, whatever materials we choose to use.

[Angusm0628]

All I'm saying is that throwing a tabard over a badly designed hunk of plastic merely makes it look to the eye like someone draped a tabard over a badly designed hunk of plastic.

Yep, But I'll give the guy minor props for not making me look at the plastic itself. Is the tabard a small step? You bet it is. But taking a step at a time forward is better than sticking your thumbs in your ear wiggling your fingers crying "It's legal Neener neener neener".

I don't know if Maeryk remembers some of my earlier kits. I know Vermin would as we had more exposure to each other back then. But my stuff was butt ass ugly and I didn't care cause I was fighting. Matter of fact my kit was majorly fugly for my first five years or so. Then something happened that changed my perspective on kits. I found myself on Alexander the lost's Pennsic website in the Battle Garb section in the Pennsic 29 editions. From there I slowly worked my way to a better appearing kit 8 years later I'm still a work in progress.
I was honored my kit made CoTT last year. It served only to spur me on for an even better kit.

[white mountain armoury]

Often its the execution not the material that is the issue with aesthetics.
We are largely an organization of do it your self types and not everyone has the time to learn the craft to make something decent looking.
For some its about gaining an advantage by using lightweight materials, for others its a matter of affordability.
Some people are just plain lazy or do not care.
Most any portrayal can be made to look good and meet society safety standards.
Personally I am interested in having a medieval experience, or as close to one as possible.
Cleats, hockey pads etc are not the stuff of medieval experience, they are the trappings of a modern sport, something I don’t have allot of interest in.
Much of the SCA has more in common with Thunderdome than the lists of a medieval tourney.
I change kits more often than some folks change their underwear, for me its about exploring the culture arms and armour and combat techniques of histories warrior elite.
For others its something completely different.

[Glen K]

thanks for the new signature...

You're very welcome! I seem to be the most-quoted person on the Archive for signatures... It's not really up to me, but if you ARE going to quote me, I'd requtest that you at least use the ENTIRE quote without modification (i.e. you dropped "As it is" from the first part of the last sentence). It provides a more accurate context...

... true harness...

As an outsider, I love to stick my nose into SCA business. I realize that it's often not welcome, and usually seen as little more than self-aggrandizing, snobbish, elitist griping (which, to an extent, it admittedly is), but I would hope that it is taken in the spirit in which it is intended: the views of a relatively knowledgeable (and increasingly neutral) outsider looking in.

The SCA, as we know, is fundamentally built around a medieval-era theme party. Nothing wrong with that, but it must be borne in mind when trying to figure out exactly what the SCA had in mind when it started out... i.e. there was no "long range strategic plan" even considered. Few, if any groups, really started out with one in those days (take a look at some of those Civil War centennial reenactments if you don't believe me...)

All that considered, the SCA basis in and focus on chivalry, honor, prowess in combat lends itself to the period of medieval Europe where those ideas were also the basis and focus: the 13th-15th centuries. When the SCA has feasts, tournaments, wars, and the accompanying gear and harness that is the period that "fits" in with the foundation of what the SCA tries to be. (side note: which is why it has always baffled me that the "assumed armour" is what it is...). This is not to say that earlier periods don't belong per se, but that their ideals and "look" simply don't fit nearly as well.

Being that these earlier periods don't fit, the dynamics of trying to make them fit can become quite problematic: A historical viking warrior might be armed with only a helmet, spear, and shield; he would have no concept whatsoever of chivalry, or tournaments, and his sense of "honor" and "worth" would be vastly different from his 14th century ancestor. Nevertheless, it is within the Chivalric milieux that such a warrior is forced to participate ("forced" meaning both he has to fit the rules of the field and the Society as well as requiring a willing suspension of disbelief that a viking warrior in wool tunic and round shield can be named "Sir" and acts with and within a chivalric medieval society.

The SCA has been, is, and will probably always be focused on inclusivity at the expense of appearance, educational focus, authenticity, etc. This is the decision of the SCA and its members, and so is it's call. They gain a large following, and allow for a wide breadth of research and exploration into the entire pre-modern period, but (in my opinion) they sacrifice a cogent sense of self both internally and externally. The "get 'em on the field" mindset is on one hand quite admirable, and is more or less practiced by most reenactment societies of every period, as they have stocks of gear they can loan. The difference lies within the focus of the different societies; the predominant focus of the SCA isn't education, or research, or interpretation for the public, but it is hitting each other with sticks (I could be wrong, but as an interested outsider looking in that's what I see). This is a simplified view as there are, of course, wonderous and myriad exceptions. Saying "The SCA is about fighting" is like saying "The Civil War was fought over slavery": there are a lot of complex matters that you're ignoring when you simplify things to that level, but that's still pretty much the gist of it.

That being said, with the SCA's struggle to know itself (the most common riposte I recieve is "it's something different for everyone!") I think that most most successful and best reflection of what the SCA could and should be are the tournament companies. Heck, when you get down to it the entire SCA could be described as one really BIG tournament company, but all here know of what I speak. They have taken the best aspects of the SCA and, by applying some tenents from other groups, have maximized the potential of what the SCA can accomplish.

When Jehan speaks, I think, he is coming from this perspective: the idealized group within an idealized SCA. I humble myself to think that we might perhaps share the view of the companies being the first, best efforts the SCA has been able to achieve within a decade, and I wish them all the success in the world.

[Maeryk]

All I'm saying is that throwing a tabard over a badly designed hunk of plastic merely makes it look to the eye like someone draped a tabard over a badly designed hunk of plastic.

Yep, But I'll give the guy minor props for not making me look at the plastic itself. Is the tabard a small step? You bet it is. But taking a step at a time forward is better than sticking your thumbs in your ear wiggling your fingers crying "It's legal Neener neener neener".

I don't know if Maeryk remembers some of my earlier kits. I know Vermin would as we had more exposure to each other back then. But my stuff was butt ass ugly and I didn't care cause I was fighting. Matter of fact my kit was majorly fugly for my first five years or so. Then something happened that changed my perspective on kits. I found myself on Alexander the lost's Pennsic website in the Battle Garb section in the Pennsic 29 editions. From there I slowly worked my way to a better appearing kit 8 years later I'm still a work in progress.
I was honored my kit made CoTT last year. It served only to spur me on for an even better kit.

Dude.. do you even REMEMBER my first kit?

It made yours look like uhh.. really good stuff.

Hell, VERMIN looked better than me.

[Mord]

All,

I'm sorry, but I am very passionate about this. It is at the core of my beliefs.

Put in simple words, that belief is this: It is wrong to force another person into behavior that is disagreeable to that person, without serious justification.

Put in even simpler words: do what you will with yourself, but don't expect it from others.

Someone with a 15th century persona should not expect the rest of the Society to have 15th certury personas, or even have an interest in the 15th century. People should be allowed to decide what persona they want, and then pursue it to the best of their ability. Those same people should be allowed to decide the extent of their participation in the organization, without rancour from anybody.

I don't think that's too much ask, and I don't think that's too hard to understand.

And finally, Jehan, I'm sorry if you thought my crticism of your writing was insulting. For the record, I think your writing is terrible. You surround your thoughts with so many words, that your thinking is either diluted or lost completely. Please try to be more concise, and maybe folks will not mis-interpreate what you're thinking.

Mord.

[Maeryk]

Umm.. Mord.. I only see one person misinterpeting what he says.

On the "force people to do what they don't want to".. you are cool with stormtrooper kit, or WOokies on the field then, right?

I mean... there _is_ a stated purpose to this club. And as soon as you document someone running around in medieval times in blue barrel plastic with arrows and "Smurfitt" embossed in the middle of the breast plate, I'll stop whining about it.

Until then.. no, I must disagree with you.

[Halvgrimr]

All,



And finally, Jehan, I'm sorry if you thought my crticism of your writing was insulting. For the record, I think your writing is terrible.
Mord.

Im sorry you suck?

Come on Mord, your better than that.

Its no secret you dont like LH types or folks that strive for the society to be more than what it is but I cant believe that you would lower yourself to personal attacks.

[Mord]

Umm.. Mord.. I only see one person misinterpeting what he says.

On the "force people to do what they don't want to".. you are cool with stormtrooper kit, or WOokies on the field then, right?

I mean... there _is_ a stated purpose to this club. And as soon as you document someone running around in medieval times in blue barrel plastic with arrows and "Smurfitt" embossed in the middle of the breast plate, I'll stop whining about it.

Until then.. no, I must disagree with you.

I also posted that when I take the field, or when I go to an event, that I consent to play by the rules. I can criticize the person who comes as a wookie (or dressed as a Klingon at the EK camp gate at Pennsic XX), but should I or can I actually stop them from doing so. I doubt it, and by the way, Maeryk, have your ever tried to stop someone who shows up in some bizarre interpretation of the middle ages? I have. It's not easy, especially when emotions are running high.

The best we can do is not reward them.

Mord.

[Maeryk]

Umm.. Mord.. I only see one person misinterpeting what he says.

On the "force people to do what they don't want to".. you are cool with stormtrooper kit, or WOokies on the field then, right?

I mean... there _is_ a stated purpose to this club. And as soon as you document someone running around in medieval times in blue barrel plastic with arrows and "Smurfitt" embossed in the middle of the breast plate, I'll stop whining about it.

Until then.. no, I must disagree with you.

I also posted that when I take the field, or when I go to an event, that I consent to play by the rules. I can criticize the person who comes as a wookie (or dressed as a Klingon at the EK camp gate at Pennsic XX), but should I or can I actually stop them from doing so. I doubt it, and by the way, Maeryk, have your ever tried to stop someone who shows up in some bizarre interpretation of the middle ages? I have. It's not easy, especially when emotions are running high.

The best we can do is not reward them.

Mord.

No. We can quietly try to inform them they are violating at least the spirit of the rules if not the actual wording. We can also try and gently assist them in doing better. If they _STILL_ decide they want to (now, knowingly) piss on the group, then there are a number of steps that can be taken. Logan seems to have mandated it in Atlantia, and it seems to be working there.

it's called "peer pressure" for a reason dude.

It's one thing to look at a rank newbie and say "you may not fight.. your armor is ass ugly". but that's not what _any_ of us are suggesting. We are discussing ways to _show_ people that their misconceptions are, quite simply, wrong.

yes, you won't get a Ugo suit in a week that is as cheap as a plastic suit. But you can get a properly fitted steel and plastic, appropriately shaped suit, that weighs the same as plastic (for those who really need the "advantage" over others of figthing in sports gear, rather than armour), for the same ballpark price/labor intensity. Yes, there are tradeoffs.. but I spent several years running with folks who SWORE up down and sideways you could not win in metal. The only metal should be knees and helmet. Metal is "too heavy" or "doesn't move", etc etc.

Those are old, trite, and false statements. Yet too many "newbies" hear them and take them to heart.

_THIS_ discussion was about what we can do to gently lead these people to "The Truth". You were the one who interpreted "True harness" to mean "I have to look like the 14thC Mafia or 15th C Illuminati". No such statement was made.

Jehan, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm taking "True harness" to mean armour that is appropriate to your position/time within the history you are attempting to portray, right?

And, again..NO ONE has an issue with hidden plastic (or steel, for that matter) that puts protection where armour wasn't. Hell, our entire "armour standard" is based around a helmet and hauberk. But we require more than even our armour standard states.

[Kilkenny]

Its no secret you dont like LH types or folks that strive for the society to be more than what it is but I cant believe that you would lower yourself to personal attacks.

I'm only going to say this once. You are completely, totally, utterly and absolutely misrepresenting Mord's beliefs.

You've drawn a conclusion that is not valid. It may be "no secret" to you - but it just is not true. You have it wrong. You misunderstand Mord's position.

[Jestyr]

I also posted that when I take the field, or when I go to an event, that I consent to play by the rules. I can criticize the person who comes as a wookie (or dressed as a Klingon at the EK camp gate at Pennsic XX), but should I or can I actually stop them from doing so. I doubt it, and by the way, Maeryk, have your ever tried to stop someone who shows up in some bizarre interpretation of the middle ages? I have. It's not easy, especially when emotions are running high.

The best we can do is not reward them.

Mord.

I agree and disagree with you, Mord.

I agree that you should not enforce your beliefs on someone else. (Although, it is rather period to do so, lol). But like you said, when you go to an event, you agree to play by the rules.

If the rules are that plastic must be covered, unless it dramatically improves their appearance on the field to look within the time frames that the SCA purports to adhere to, then that is a rule. As discussed, a few kingdoms have already adopted such a rule.

Either way, I disagree that the only thing you can do is not recognize such people.

When a person first joins the SCA, it should be responsibility of the mentors of that person, hopefully they are peers, to teach them the diversity that is available, but to guide them to making good choices. No different than parents raising a child. A child needs to learn and know that certain behavior is not acceptable. Parents (usually) let their child make certain choices, but are there to help that child make better life decisions. No different than the local knight saying, "Ok, let's get you on the field for practice, but before you enter a tourney or war, we've got to get you looking appropriate."

Now, appropriate can take on a variety of forms, but someone who joins the peerage should have enough of a broad range of knowledge to help someone look good in their chosen time frame. At the very least, can find out through others that do.

Unless I misunderstand, you are in agreement with most on this board. You are just seemingly unwilling to enforce your beliefs about appropriate field attire on someone. People will make the choices they will make, for sure, but as a knight, why not guide that person to being a truly productive member of the Society. Help them make the Dream more of a reality.

Now, that being said, why attack someone. Even if you think someone's writing is terrible, why say it? Why not say, "I wish you would tighten up your essays to make a more defined point." It just seems unnecessary to attack.

Just my $0.02.

[Kilkenny]

I also posted that when I take the field, or when I go to an event, that I consent to play by the rules. I can criticize the person who comes as a wookie (or dressed as a Klingon at the EK camp gate at Pennsic XX), but should I or can I actually stop them from doing so. I doubt it, and by the way, Maeryk, have your ever tried to stop someone who shows up in some bizarre interpretation of the middle ages? I have. It's not easy, especially when emotions are running high.

The best we can do is not reward them.

Mord.

Others also consent to play by the rules, Mord. Attending events explicitly includes such consent. The SCA can actually eject a person for failure to comply with the rules - and even does, from time to time. As private individuals attending we have no authority to actively enforce the rules of the SCA, Inc. but any and all officers of the organization have both authority and obligation to do so.

That we don't always enforce the rules is not the same thing as not being able to do so. It's sometimes confusing which rules will be enforced and which will be allowed to slide, as it can vary wildly from area to area based on personal agendas/perceptions/preferences

[Halvgrimr]

Its no secret you dont like LH types or folks that strive for the society to be more than what it is but I cant believe that you would lower yourself to personal attacks.

I'm only going to say this once. You are completely, totally, utterly and absolutely misrepresenting Mord's beliefs.

You've drawn a conclusion that is not valid. It may be "no secret" to you - but it just is not true. You have it wrong. You misunderstand Mord's position.

First, I respect the hell out of Mord
The is a gentlemen and a scholor IMO
I love that he is so passionate about his area of interest

That said, I do not beleive what I have said is incorrect
Mord has entered into the fray on this topic more than once and the outcome is always the same (even when the topoc isnt about SCA)

Mord doesnt like the concept of telling folks what they can and cant do in a given society

I have seen him become hostile when pressed on the issue.

As such I dont think that it is any secret.

I dont agree with him but I can respect his fevor on the matter.

My point was that he didnt need to result to what looked like a personal attack, he is better than that.

Halv

[Mord]

A few thoughts

First, I did not come to believe that you can't force someone into doing behaving in certain way by simply reading a few books. I came to this belief through experience. Yes, I have tried to help people follow the minimum of the rules. One attempt resulted in the use of many band-aids and the fixing of my moms sewing machine. Another succeeded in the loss of tunics I arranged to have made (this actually happened twice). I could go on, but I have learned that when bring people into the Society, that an open hand is more effective than a closed fist. Also, don't expect praise or thanks when you help someone; help them because it's the right thing to do.

Second, it seems that everytime I post an opinion on the Archive, someone sees fit to criticize, and in more than one case insult, me. Yet, when I criticize someone and disagree with their opinion, I'm jumped on with even more visceral nastiness. Am I not allowed to express and defend my beliefs? I understand that my thinking is in the minority around here, but I'm beginning to think there's a double-standard of acceptable and unacceptable people here.

Third, Halv, I appreciate the respect, but understand that my beliefs are reason why I don't join LH groups.

Mord.

[Halvgrimr]

Second, it seems that everytime I post an opinion on the Archive, someone sees fit to criticize, and in more than one case insult, me. Yet, when I criticize someone and disagree with their opinion, I'm jumped on with even more visceral nastiness. Am I not allowed to express and defend my beliefs? I understand that my thinking is in the minority around here, but I'm beginning to think there's a double-standard of acceptable and unacceptable people here.

I think that is becase most folks just expect negativity from a certain group of posters and for the most part just ignore it

You are above using personal attacks to make your points IMO
To be clear I wasnt 'jumping on you' just stating that I was disappointed that you choose that route

Not that I am beyond personal attacks:)
I just hold some to higher standards I suppose:)

Third, Halv, I appreciate the respect, but understand that my beliefs are reason why I don't join LH groups.

Mord.

I totally understand (and respect) your perspective on the matter
I just think you fail to understand that only huge difference in LH and SCA is that the LH standard is enforced and for the most part non negotiable.

The SCA has a bar, but as was previously discussed it is hard to ENFORCE when Gandorf the Elven Vampire strolls into an event with psuedo kit and plops down to enjoy the 'atmosphere'

[Kilkenny]

Its no secret you dont like LH types or folks that strive for the society to be more than what it is but I cant believe that you would lower yourself to personal attacks.

I'm only going to say this once. You are completely, totally, utterly and absolutely misrepresenting Mord's beliefs.

You've drawn a conclusion that is not valid. It may be "no secret" to you - but it just is not true. You have it wrong. You misunderstand Mord's position.

First, I respect the hell out of Mord
The is a gentlemen and a scholor IMO
I love that he is so passionate about his area of interest

That said, I do not beleive what I have said is incorrect
Mord has entered into the fray on this topic more than once and the outcome is always the same (even when the topoc isnt about SCA)

Mord doesnt like the concept of telling folks what they can and cant do in a given society

I have seen him become hostile when pressed on the issue.

As such I dont think that it is any secret.

I dont agree with him but I can respect his fevor on the matter.

My point was that he didnt need to result to what looked like a personal attack, he is better than that.

Halv

Please read your statements.

Compare "Mord doesn't like the concept of telling folks what they can and cant do in a given society." with "Its no secret you dont like LH types or folks that strive for the society to be more than what it is ".

If you do not recognize that they are two very different statements, I guess there's nothing more to be said.

If you do recognize the distinction, then I expect that you will withdraw the statement quoted second above.

[Halvgrimr]

I do not retract it but thanks for playing
I still stand behind the statement
I beleive Mord has agreed that he dislikes folks telling other folks what to do.
I do not think that it is untrue that he has a dislike for a large portion if not most of the very vocal LH community and most of the 'LETS RAISE THE BAR" SCA folks for thinking they have the right to tell others what they can and can not do.

Even if we do not agree on the wording of what I said, Mord's reply didnt indicate that his 'pantys were in a wad' over my words so I am unsure why you continue to 'poke the bear' as it were.

Knowing Mord (electronically) I am willing to bet that if he felt disrespected or wanted to disagree verily with my words he would have said so.

[Kilkenny]

I do not retract it but thanks for playing
I still stand behind the statement
I beleive Mord has agreed that he dislikes folks telling other folks what to do.
I do not think that it is untrue that he has a dislike for a large portion if not most of the very vocal LH community and most of the 'LETS RAISE THE BAR" SCA folks for thinking they have the right to tell others what they can and can not do.

Even if we do not agree on the wording of what I said, Mord's reply didnt indicate that his 'pantys were in a wad' over my words so I am unsure why you continue to 'poke the bear' as it were.

Knowing Mord (electronically) I am willing to bet that if he felt disrespected or wanted to disagree verily with my words he would have said so.

Ok. So we've established that you consider disagreeing with a person's right to tell another what to do to constitute disagreeing with the subject matter they are trying to enforce.

We've also established that you consider disliking a course of action to constitute disliking an individual pursuing that course of action.

You've made the wholly unsupported leap that because a person objects to telling other people what to do he therefore dislikes a specific set of people based on their objectives.

Mord's a tremendous advocate of raising the bar. By example, not fiat.

[Halvgrimr]

You've made the wholly unsupported leap that because a person objects to telling other people what to do he therefore dislikes a specific set of people based on their objectives.[/i]

Nope
Ive made that leap by watching these debates over the last few years

[Snaebjorn Hakonarson]

Think ya'll could maybe finish up your discussion about wording and meaning elsewhere and see about getting back on topic?

What do we do to help people see that visible plastic on the field during SCA combat is something that we shouldn't have?

Hidden plastic is great. I use it. Hell most people I know use it. But visible plastic should not be if at all avoidable. (I've seen a gentle's tunic that he wore over his plastic armour rip off half way through a bout. It was old and the seams just gave way when it caught it seemed. I think he was more embarrassed and bothered then anyone else.)

So what can we do as a Society to help keep plastic from being visible?

[Angusm0628]

Rather than watch the train wreck that is happening to this thread. I got a couple simple questions to hopefully get the switching station working.


Is there anyone here who thinks in your face plastic is best?

Is there anyone here who disagrees that appearance on the field, regardless of what period one portrays, should at least be given consideration when he/she enters the field? I will exclude anyone under one year of SCA exposure in this premise as there are certain outside forces that tend to be at work much of the time.

Does anyone think that brow-beatings and insult will get anyone anywhere in trying to get another to improve their kit?

[Snaebjorn Hakonarson]

In order to your questions.

No.

No.

No.

[Glen K]

Angus...

I'd guess your questions are rather altruistic... I doubt anyone is going to answer "yes" to any of them. It's like saying "who here supports slavery and child murder?"


Some more to-the-point questions would be:

Who here thinks plastic should be completely banned from the list? Crown list?

Who here thinks plastic may be allowed but that it MUST be hidden?

Who here thinks having these minimum standards printed upfront would avoid the problems that arise, and eliminate any need for brow-beatings, insults, and even gentle coaxings or leading by example?

It seems the gist of the question is whether or not dictats should be ordered concerning plastic, and if they are what the considerations should be leading to that decision and what the positives and negatives could be. MOST of the above (including all 7 pages) is discussion on those points.

I think it's more telling that a discussion of whether to allow plastic or not and how much has quickly evolved into a discussion of what the fundamental values of the SCA are and should be.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

As a percentage, how many SCA folks wear glaringly uncovered plastic anymore? Are we making a mountain range out of a molehill?

And is crap looking metal better than crap looking plastic? How about less crap looking plastic (Japanese, or the stuff from Plasticlamellar.com)?

[Mord]

Angus...

I'd guess your questions are rather altruistic... I doubt anyone is going to answer "yes" to any of them. It's like saying "who here supports slavery and child murder?"


Some more to-the-point questions would be:

Who here thinks plastic should be completely banned from the list? Crown list?

Who here thinks plastic may be allowed but that it MUST be hidden?

Who here thinks having these minimum standards printed upfront would avoid the problems that arise, and eliminate any need for brow-beatings, insults, and even gentle coaxings or leading by example?

It seems the gist of the question is whether or not dictats should be ordered concerning plastic, and if they are what the considerations should be leading to that decision and what the positives and negatives could be. MOST of the above (including all 7 pages) is discussion on those points.

I think it's more telling that a discussion of whether to allow plastic or not and how much has quickly evolved into a discussion of what the fundamental values of the SCA are and should be.

To your first question: No. After all, I worn Nobleplastic lammelar, when I'm not wearing my hidden gear.

To your second question: No. See my first answer.

To your third question: You assume people will actually read the rules, Glen. This is not always the case. You also assume people will actually enforce the rules. It's hard enough just getting enough marshals to inspect for safety, so how do you expect us to look for other things. More sinisterly, people in the SCA use the rules as political weapons.

Now, here's a question for you all: How many of you are willing to help someone make gear and then make so it doesn't show the plastic? I have 3 fighting tunics, one of which will proabably last the rest of the year. Fighting puts wear and tear on equipment, and people have limited resources and more importantly skills to solve the percieved problem.

Mord.

[Amanda M]

You can go to any largish SCA war and see the worst that exposed plastic has to offer. It is still quite prevalent.

[Kilkenny]

Think ya'll could maybe finish up your discussion about wording and meaning elsewhere and see about getting back on topic?

What do we do to help people see that visible plastic on the field during SCA combat is something that we shouldn't have?

Hidden plastic is great. I use it. Hell most people I know use it. But visible plastic should not be if at all avoidable. (I've seen a gentle's tunic that he wore over his plastic armour rip off half way through a bout. It was old and the seams just gave way when it caught it seemed. I think he was more embarrassed and bothered then anyone else.)

So what can we do as a Society to help keep plastic from being visible?

In here ? Nothing.

Out in the world ? Choose your course of action and go forward with it.

This subject isn't a dead horse, it's the grandfather of all zombie horses.
It's been beaten to death only to rise up time and time again.

There is no magic bullet to cure the "problem" anymore than there is one to stop this subject from rising from the dead again.

Figure out what it is *you* want to have for harness, for soft kit, etc. Work out your goals, get them defined and then set about achieving them to the best of your ability. Have fun doing it and don't worry yourself overly about what other people do. Instead, do your best to be what you want to be and have fun doing it. This will bring others to you who share your goals and interests and you will be able to help one another to advance toward your mutual goals and interests.

Don't let the fact that there will be those who don't share your interests distract you.

Consider for a moment that completely contained within the time frame the SCA officially recognizes, we cover a greater span of years than from the end of the SCA period to the present. You can have a greater anachronistic variation between two excellent kits that fall within the Society's time frame than between a modern sport kit and a 16th century harness.

[Angusm0628]

Angus...

I'd guess your questions are rather altruistic... I doubt anyone is going to answer "yes" to any of them. It's like saying "who here supports slavery and child murder?"


Some more to-the-point questions would be:

Who here thinks plastic should be completely banned from the list? Crown list?

Who here thinks plastic may be allowed but that it MUST be hidden?

Who here thinks having these minimum standards printed upfront would avoid the problems that arise, and eliminate any need for brow-beatings, insults, and even gentle coaxings or leading by example?

It seems the gist of the question is whether or not dictats should be ordered concerning plastic, and if they are what the considerations should be leading to that decision and what the positives and negatives could be. MOST of the above (including all 7 pages) is discussion on those points.

I think it's more telling that a discussion of whether to allow plastic or not and how much has quickly evolved into a discussion of what the fundamental values of the SCA are and should be.

Maybe, I was actually just trying everyone to ignore the man behind the curtain and get back on the subject that was originally posted.
Regarding Dictates against exposed plastic I'm kinda indifferent regarding appearance by edict vs appearance by desire. The former simply evokes doing the rock bottom minimum. The latter evokes a true desire to go beyond what is now and towards what could be in oneself.

Dilan
I think it's more a case of we've become de-sensitized to it's appearance to the point where we really don't take notice. It's there but if you want to see it you have to decide to see it. Kinda like going into the monkey barn at the zoo. Once you're in there you don't notice the smell til you re-enter.
And no, poor metal armor is not better than crap plastic visually. It is however a higher rung in the metal/plastic for attempting a period harness.
As to the japanese/lammelar question. I think we already covered that as if it's done well it looks good on the field.

[white mountain armoury]

I help people with armour alot, sure I sell folks armour, but I have helped alot of folks free of charge get into armour that is not plastic, or if it is its hidden, and well hidden.
I am in the process of putting 3 guys into linen shell cotes of plates with plastic plates for material costs alone.
Sometimes it pays off sometimes it does not.
I helped one fellow make a helm, elbows and knees, all from stainless as he realy seemed to have a vision about a nice looking kit.
Upon completion he sold it all and made money
I never make demands of anyone, but prefer to try and set an example.
The setting of an example has worked well, the folks at my local fighter practice look excellent.