The Armour Archive

Hi Mac and Gordon, they are sharp but I will blunt them when I get them. I asked for them sharp so I could work out how blunt to make them after some more test runs.

They are not as scary as they look in use. I find using the coronels and a solid lance safer than using the balsa. There is no slide and no apple-corer socket. The coronel bites into the shield, I mean they really bite, and there is either a big hit and you are past each other or the lance breaks.

I have a mail standard on under my coif and the coif I am working on is an intergral coif with the hauberk and rivetted. I have been hit in the throat in the old days when we used solid lances (no coronels) and wore 13thC harness. The coif is actually quite good protection. Of course more is better.

Hi Trystan, warsaddles all the way. Not much chance of getting hit in the crotch in my warsaddle. I am making the same for Joram to use on the day.

Whilst I can see this 13thC joust being a one off (though I dream of getting 30 riders a side all decked out in 13thC harness for a true tournament) I would be more than happy to use these lances and coronels all day in my 15thC plate. (with voiders)

I forgot to mention that our St Georges Day Jousts are being filmed for a documentary that has already been sold, so this is another reason to do some stuff I have always wanted to do.

Ah, OK. And you have evidence for coronels being used that early? I've seen them for sure in the jousting scenes from the Manessa Codex, but that's a bit later than what you're doing (1315ish). I wouldn't have thought that coronels were being used as early as 1260-- I would have thought blunt spears (lances) would have been used. I'm only passingly familiar with this period so this is all very interesting.

Gwen

Blunt spears look like going out around the 1220's and than something called a 'soket' makes an appearance at a Round Table in the 1250's. It has been described as a socket with a ring on the end to "punch" the shield.

I looked at these but the slide factor is terrible, These seemed more dangerous than using a blunt spear head. At least the spear head would bite into the shield.

These "soket's" don't last long before the coronel makes an appearance. I haven't got an exact date, or even a rough date, for when the coronel appears but it is in the 13thC.

In conversations with Toby long ago his view was that the coronel allowed knights to target each others eyeslits safely as a training for war. I can see this, but I also think they were to bite into the shields and facilitate breaking the lance. This is needed in these open field jousts as you can pass each other further away than you would if you had a tilt. Of course you can also pass each other a lot closer as well. I have smacked knees a couple of times doing this. Running in the open and getting the right distance etc is one thing that makes doing this so fascinating to me. The mechanics of it.

If Jeff is still looking for an alternative to balsa we had very good results with a metre long piece of pine board that I made into 32mm dowel. 300mm back from the tip we drilled a 1/2inch hole and 300 back from this we drilled another 1/2inch hole. This leaves 400mm of solid timber into the socket. They take a good thump to break, but will break blunt at the hole/s. There is alway 400mm of solid timber in the socket and this means no socket hits. I have been apple cored a couple of times from sockets sliding and am looking for something other than balsa. These seem to fit the bill so far.

Dowel from the hardware store doesn't seem suitable down here. Way too hard.

So what did you base the 'rochet' on? Did you have a written description, or a picture? It sounds like an interesting evolutionary step, maybe the first true purpose built piece of joust equipment.

By the time of St. Englevert it seems the use of coronels had even engendered techniques for showboating; loosening your helmet strap so the helmet flew off when hit seems like just something some guy would do to prove what a stud he was.

Dowel from the hardware store here breaks into long evil blades, so not acceptable. Some of the balso we've gotten is ridiculously dense and hard-- so hard that there have been complaints. The guys weight the pieces to grade them; we use the heaviest pieces on the quintain, and they're not breaking.

The balsa isn't really the problem for us, but like for you, the socket hits can be. I think the guys have a plan in the works to address that situation though.

Sorry, I changed that to "Soket".

I only have a written discription from Dr. David Crouch' book "Tournament".

This is from a Round Table held at Walden Abbey in 1252. These Round Tables look to be the precursors to the later Jousts of Peace as we know them. As you say, special equipment just for the joust to make it safer.

It's a fasinating period. Those guys were amazingly tough and a little insane.

We have the same problems with the dowel, incrediblt hard and if it does break, long pointy shards.

The main problem with the balsa is that it is getting hard to get. We are, funnily enough, the biggest buyer of balsa in Australia and our supplier was telling us that worldwide supplies of balsa are drying up. I wonder if this is due to the resurgence of jousting and our use of balsa?

Rod Walker wrote:The main problem with the balsa is that it is getting hard to get. We are, funnily enough, the biggest buyer of balsa in Australia and our supplier was telling us that worldwide supplies of balsa are drying up. I wonder if this is due to the resurgence of jousting and our use of balsa?

In the US, I would speculate that it has more to do with fewer people flying RC planes. That hobby has typically been the largest consumer of balsa here. Because of a population density increase, there are fewer places to fly planes and as a result fewer people are interested in bothering with it. They just go ride motorcycles and quads instead. Ack.

The predominance of motorsports also contributes to no males being horsemen. again, Ack.

So far, balsa is pretty available here, but one of the larger suppliers' factory burned down a year or so ago. Don't know if they've rebuilt.

JH

Was that the balsa supplier down in Texas?

Chris G. wrote:Was that the balsa supplier down in Texas?

Yup.

Rod Walker wrote:Whilst I can see this 13thC joust being a one off (though I dream of getting 30 riders a side all decked out in 13thC harness for a true tournament) I would be more than happy to use these lances and coronels all day in my 15thC plate. (with voiders)

To hell with the doctors - I'm in!!

Gimme a horse and something to sedate the wife, and I'm in!
(I'm on the left, please excuse the bad posing)




(Though I suspect you might prefer people with some riding skills, at least...)

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:The predominance of motorsports also contributes to no males being horsemen. again, Ack.

There's also the cost of riding lessons, which can get a little I'd learn to be a horseman at the drop of a bascinet, except I can't afford to learn to ride!

Speaking of which; Rod, I'd love to hear more about your saddle. Where'd you get it?

Riding lessons aren't to bad compared to some activities. A group lesson will run you between $20-$40 for an hour depending on region. So if you are doing one hour per week, thats $1040 - $2080 per year. Might seem like a lot, but compared to the costs of something like go-karting, bracket racing, or small circuit stock cars, its pretty cheap.

I work with alot of autosport enthusiasts. Even at the low end of $15,000 for one of their cars, that could pay for alot of riding lessons and rentals at events. Not to mention the cost of upkeep and upgrades of the vehicles.

I think it comes down to interests and priorities. It certainly isn't as cheap as ground combat (rattan or fencing), but I think its cheaper than most autosports, probably even or a little less than an active golfers greens fees.

If you are in the states, really want to learn to ride and joust (Rod, don't shoot me) and have the time, you can always volunteer to work for a ren faire joust troupe.

Many of them will trade squire work for riding, jousting, and skill at arms lessons. Just be ready to work your ass off. Being a squire (ground crew) is hard, physical and thankless work.

You can also volunteer to pick stalls and do other work around a local stables in exchange for riding lessons and saddle time.

If you want to do something bad enough, you will find a way.

Lloyd wrote:If you want to do something bad enough, you will find a way.

This really is the secret to becoming a jouster. Ya gotta want it bad enough.

Lloyd makes a good point. That was how I got my start in riding. Some of the local SCA people also performed at Ren Faires and needed more riders and ground crew. So I started working with them in the off season.

Lloyd wrote:You can also volunteer to pick stalls and do other work around a local stables in exchange for riding lessons and saddle time.

Hmmmmm

We came up with a pretty useful solution on break-away lances that avoided holes and metal sockets... we used 1 3/4" dowels, and created "disposable" sockets out of veneer, usually around 1 1/2' long. We'd make up several by wrapping them around the dowel real tight, gluing and clamping, let it dry. We'd have the "tips" be of varying lengths, but matched to the poles so they'd all be the same length. I found that the tips that were ~2 1/2' were the optimum. If you wanted to go "all wussy" ( ) you could saw the dowels off at a matching 45 degree angle and they wouldn't put up much resistance. For a good solid hit that was still breakaway, they could be butted up flat to one another; in this fashion we'd get significant dents in our breastplates all the time (we tended to joust w/o shields) without the worry of the metal socket coming into play.

If you want to go for the "Knight's Tale" super-shatter effect, just make the veneer sockets longer, leaving a void between dowel sections filled with dry spaghetti noodles.

Thanks Glen, Lots of interesting ways to do the break-away lances.

Got my new helm painted and the right muffler into my hauberk.

This is my old helm. I used it last weekend at a media shoot. The lance in my hand is the same as we will be using.


The new helm and muffler.

Hiya Rod
April 25th wouldnt be Ironfest by any chance ?

Hamdrang wrote:Hiya Rod
April 25th wouldnt be Ironfest by any chance ?

Certainly is.

Many of them will trade squire work for riding, jousting, and skill at arms lessons. Just be ready to work your ass off. Being a squire (ground crew) is hard, physical and thankless work.

You can also volunteer to pick stalls and do other work around a local stables in exchange for riding lessons and saddle time.

I will second/third that statement. Sweat equity is how Thomas Hayman got his start. He's now in his 3rd or 4th year as #1 squire for the Order of the Crescent, and doing very well with his riding. As a matter of fact he's with them this weekend as the Order defends their title for the second year at the RA's Joust for the Sword of Honour.

Darth also started the same way. He was a banner carrier at our first joust in 2007, where he was completely bitten by the jousting bug. He's been coming to Knight School religiously (trading his time at the events for lessons), got himself armour and this past weekend rode in it for the first time. At this rate, he'll be jousting in the next 2 months.



Like the others have said, if there's a will, there's a way, so if you're interested- go for it.

Sorry for the detour, now back to Rod's joust.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs wrote:Some of the balso we've gotten is ridiculously dense and hard-- so hard that there have been complaints. The guys weight the pieces to grade them; we use the heaviest pieces on the quintain, and they're not breaking.

No kidding. I've knocked over our heavily weighted shock quintain with balsa that was cut four ways to Sunday for breakage, and it just wouldn't break. Some of that balsa is TOUGH stuff!

Rod, don't loosen your helmet straps though, please. And Gwen, stop giving him ideas!

Cheers!

Gordon

No worries Gordon, I'm quite sure Rod will find a way to kill himself without my help....

Gwen

Hmmm...Good point, Gwen. I shouldn't underestimate Rod's inventiveness!



Cheers!

Gordon

Black Swan Designs wrote:Many of them will trade squire work for riding, jousting, and skill at arms lessons. Just be ready to work your ass off. Being a squire (ground crew) is hard, physical and thankless work.

You can also volunteer to pick stalls and do other work around a local stables in exchange for riding lessons and saddle time.

I will second/third that statement. Sweat equity is how Thomas Hayman got his start. He's now in his 3rd or 4th year as #1 squire for the Order of the Crescent, and doing very well with his riding. As a matter of fact he's with them this weekend as the Order defends their title for the second year at the RA's Joust for the Sword of Honour.

Darth also started the same way. He was a banner carrier at our first joust in 2007, where he was completely bitten by the jousting bug. He's been coming to Knight School religiously (trading his time at the events for lessons), got himself armour and this past weekend rode in it for the first time. At this rate, he'll be jousting in the next 2 months.

Like the others have said, if there's a will, there's a way, so if you're interested- go for it.

Sorry for the detour, now back to Rod's joust.

Gwen

That's exactly what I did! I would encourage anyone with questions about getting into jousting to visit http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63957765419&ref=mf and ask as many questions as you want.

Oh yeah, love that helmet Rod!!!

Black Swan Designs wrote:No worries Gordon, I'm quite sure Rod will find a way to kill himself without my help....

Gwen

and

Rittmeister Frye wrote:Hmmm...Good point, Gwen. I shouldn't underestimate Rod's inventiveness!

Very Happy

Cheers!

Gordon

Aww come on you two, I'm standing right here


Remember it takes two to indulge in a madcap day of 13thC jousting, and my partner in crime in this instance is the taciturn Joram.

Wait til you see what I have planned for later this year or our next St. Georges Day Jousts. Been chatting with Arne and he is keen as well to come on down and do a Pas d'Arme with the solid lances/steel coronels arrets, grapers etc. Planning to invite a select few with the requisite harness and skills to play.

Going to do this one 15thC of course,,,,,,,,,, means I need to get some new 15thC clothing again

Thank God it's Joram you're jousting with then. One madman is sufficient for excitement, two madmen is a receipt for disaster. I'm sure this will be quite exciting enough.

Rod Walker wrote:Going to do this one 15thC of course,,,,,,,,,, means I need to get some new 15thC clothing again

Excellent! Can we tell you what colours we need it in this time, though? Purple would be good.

BTW, when are you gonna get tired of doing 15th Hussars? I need some of that kit, too... So DOOON'T kill yourself off yet, my friend! (Need sabretasches, sabre belts and other such goodies!)

Adios!

Gordon

Black Swan Designs wrote:
Sorry for the detour, now back to Rod's joust.

Gwen

No, that's fine. It's all useful info for people looking to get into it.

Bon Chance to the lads at Leeds.

It never rains but it pours.

We now have three film crews coming to film our St. Georges Day Jousts.

A documentary crew is doing a piece on jousting and will be spending a week filming everything we do. A crew from HorseTalkTV is coming up as well to do a story and an independent film guy is going to be there as well.

Lots of coverage. Best get in and get a haircut

That is so kewl.

I'm beaming massive waves of envy in your direction.



Effingham

Thanks Effingham, its all coming together.

Just back from the Bi-Annual re-enactors conference. What a weekend.

We did a lot of 13thC stuff on Saturday and had a bit of a mounted melee. Too many cool moments but my stand out has to be being grabbed around the neck and face and my opponent trying to drag me off my horse. I grabbed him back and side passed my horse and pulled him straight off his horse, carried him for a few metres and dropped him. He hit the ground on his knees and I stood in my stirrups and smacked him in the head with my sword (steel) and took his ransom there and then
I rode around pass some spectators and to their applause said "William Marshal taught me that".

It was just one of those magical moments that comes along too infrequently.

The large soft grassy field we were in is in a river valley surounded by mountains. The authentic camps were on 3 sides of this field and this backdrop was amazing to be in the middle of. On top of one of the mountains you could just make out a crenallated wall and tower in amongst the trees as there is a (besa block and rendered) castle that was built in the '70's.

Desperately waiting on photos.

Still on a high.

Rod Walker wrote:I rode around pass some spectators and to their applause said "William Marshal taught me that".

I both hate and love you.

You are just too, too spiff for words.

And, yes... PHOTOS my preciousssss.... we wantsssss 'em!

Bit of video from Sunday when we did a later period joust. Sorry about the butt ugly tilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxwr6zwN_mg

<whimper>


SCHWEEEEEEEEET!!