The Armour Archive

Are you wearing a gambeson under your armour? If you aren't wearing a gambeson under your armour, what are you wearing?

New fighter, looking for options. Thanks

I wear a teeshirteson. Two tshirts with cotton batting in between them, roughly quilted together. Padding on the lower half of my torso only.

What time period and geography are you interested in armour-wise? That will help folks here narrow down suggestions.

Thanks,
Tasha

At this point I am just trying to get out on the field. I'm more of a Viking but not all my armor is at this point. I won't really be in there with the hard hitting either. I will be crewing an Arbelest. A gambeson seems a little over kill to me but I don't know what else people are wearing.

Thanks.

No gambeson here. I wear a target brand dri fit shirt. Extra padding is hot!

Everything gets covered with a tunic and pants, so I don't feel the need to change to a tunic.

If I get a chainmail shirt I will probably have *some* padding, but not much. Take your bruises like a man!

I am a big proponent of gambesons for SCA heavy combat (the type made by gambisons.com, gmandragora, revival and worn by people like Murdock). They are obviously hotter then no padding, but they do provide a modicum of bruise and grass-rash protection on parts of the body that we tend to neglect with rigid armor.

Most fighters I know are in a constant state of flux with their armor; you take a shot to a soft spot you didn't realize you had, and your next priority project is to add padding and a rigid plate there. Then for the next 4-6 months, they wear it until the awkwardness or lack of being hit on that location makes them figure it was a fluke, and they discard it....until they get hit there again! I mention this because, if you wear a gambeson, you have the option of using it like an arming coat; as a base for you to attach you armor to, so you sort become a swiss-army fighter.
I wear my gambeson for both combat achery and melee. In melee, I strap on additional hardware; a cannon and rerebrace on the exposed weapon arm, and a globose. But with combat archery, I have to only to remove the hidden back plate and add a kidney belt under the coat, and I feel protected enough.

A gambeson, as I mention is hot, but it is always there. if it's long enough it adds a bit of added protection to thighs (some of us are suckers for leg shots).
There is also the option of making a sort of faux gambeson which looks like a gambeson but only has minimal padding everywhere except at the mandetory locations (joints, kidneys, back) where it has multiple layers of batting.

Note that even with a gambeson, a telling blow can/should hurt. I wear an aventail that leaves a really nice waffle pattern bruise on my shoulder through the gambeson, when I get a good shot there.
-Cian

I wear a heavy (but one-layer) linen arming tunic, unpadded, over hexpads. Period appearance, targeted modern padding, and breathability. works out pretty well for me, YMMV. I fight with some hard hitting folks and haven't had any body shot issues yet, but i also don't mind getting bruised.

I have always worn a gambeson or aketon. I'm scrawny and used to be REALLY scrawny and have always worried about being hit on the collar bone, the point of the shoulder, and the short ribs.

The only times I go without are when it is 90°+ and 90%+ humidity and the scenario calls for lots of work in a line, rather than close up stuff.

Underarmor(tm) shirt (mostly to wick sweat and keep the overtunic less filthy)
over that a strong tunic (this actually absorbs quite a bit)
over that a steel lamellar "vest" (light leather shoulders).

I used to wear a quilted vest gambeson under my lammellar, but one day at Pennsic it was too hot... and Duke Andrew hit me really hard in the back. I lived. I never wore the gambeson again.

I am pretty scrawny, too, at least for the SCA. 6'0 190 (but I was 175 when I dropped the gambeson).

I wear an arming jacket.
No real padding
But I also wear full plate.

I'm 5'7" 137 lbs... I think I win the scrawny award.

hrolf: what hexpads do you wear? I've actually considered getting some kind of moisture wicking shirt that has some padding in the shoulders and upper arm.

Corby: It is always 90 degrees here in South Florida!

MJBlazek wrote:I wear an arming jacket.
No real padding
But I also wear full plate.

What he said.

Yes, diamond quilted. Heavy linen outside, wool batting, medium linen inside. Over that a heavy linen fighting tunic then lamellar.

Two questions:

How is wearing an arming jacket or gambeson at Pennsic or any other summer event for that matter. Seems like it would be really hot?

What is the difference between an arming jacket and a gambeson? I only difference I really see is maybe they are a little more fitted and shorter.

Thanks
Esperanza

Most armour bites (I'm not referring to the quality of folks' armour or its appearance... just to the fact that it will tend to pinch).

Nothing wrong with proudly displaying nobly-won bruises. Armour bites are just annoying.

Jupons, gambesons, padded jackets, or whatever works for you just helps remove these minor annoyances from life.

However... breatheability matters. Best not to buy bite-avoidance at the expense of heat prostration. Consequently, listening to experts like Tasha on how to go about making or procuring jupons, gambesons, etc... is just wise.

I think you'll get all kinds've different opinions on the matter, though. Experiences will vary as will personal preferences.

Max Von Halstern

I really think it is the style of the garment and the lack of padding in the arming jacket

Esperanza wrote:How is wearing an arming jacket or gambeson at Pennsic or any other summer event for that matter. Seems like it would be really hot?

What is the difference between an arming jacket and a gambeson? I only difference I really see is maybe they are a little more fitted and shorter.

Welcome and well come to the Archive, Esperanza. May your stay with us be long and profit you much!

You've got it about right, as MJBlazek said. A standalone gambeson will be thicker, and the later-centuries (15th through all the 16th) arming doublet is only padded enough to keep your plate armor from biting you.

This forum also uses gambeson in the more-specific technical sense of a supplementary quilted armor worn over a mail hauberk to take a lot of the energy out of incoming before it arrives at the main armor layer. The 'berk was worn with an aketon with long sleeves beneath it. We differentiate between the two terms in a way the medievals did not, so watch for us doing that. It's done strictly for precise communication among us -- to cure the medieval imprecisions in terminology, varying as they do with language, nation, and date, mamma mia.

This is why there are experts. And they're in demand.

Heat can be minimized, though western Pennsylvania in late August will certainly test the cooling ability of anything. Make your gambeson such that it can be opened down the front, and consider designing it sleeveless. The coolest quilted fabric to be had is 100% linen. Get it from discount fabric sources like fabrics.com. The inner layers of the quilting can be the most el-cheapo 100% linen, in the awfulest silly-ass prints available, with handsomer fabric more to your tastes on the outer shell, which may also be heavier weight. Linen's strong stuff, with its lengthy fibers. A gambeson is really something you have to make from scratch for yourself, as modern quilted stuff is designed for maximum loft combined with minimum weight, to hold body heat in, and not to absorb shock. You want it both quilted and dense, which is the opposite of premade quilted stuff, which compresses down to nothing.

All-wool blanket can be surprisingly cool too, and will still keep you warm if it's wet. Wool's also springy, so it's pretty fair padding layer for layer.

Needled cotton quilters' batting is cushy, but definitely warmer than linen. It comes in very wide widths (90"), so its eight dollars a yard is a very reasonable price. It looks like muslin-colored flannel.

I haven't much to say about the super-wicking modern fabrics -- they sound fabulous properly applied to wick your sweat out to where it can evaporate and cool you efficiently, but I've never used them.

In America, when you fight in armor, you sweat -- or you're courting heat stroke. Fact of life. The way to deal with it is to pretend you're a cottonwood tree and keep yourself well watered, for you will exude moisture from every pore you've got -- or every leaf if you really are a cottonwood tree. Like the tree, suck up lots of water and keep doing it. Europe is in many places on many days a cold, dank continent that doesn't get enough sun. I think only such a place would have come up with solid steel head to foot as practical fighting clothing.

If you go with mail, your gambeson will need to be about twice as thick as an under-plate arming doublet, and perhaps three times as thick in some parts like the points of the shoulders and cervical vertebrae and spine. A sufficiently thick gambeson alone will give very good protection against SCA hardstick. Make this one longsleeved and have gamboised (quilted) cuisses made the same as your gambeson upon your thighs, suspending your kneecops, which will also strap behind your knees. This gambeson should also have the elbow cops pointed (laced) onto the sleeves, again with a strap across the inside of the elbow to snug it down. Don't rely on the strap alone for either set of cops: suspend them.

Kidney protection varies a bit with your taste. You might fit it into the gambeson itself or you may prefer to strap it on separately. It makes a good suspender for the gamboised cuisses, btw.

Several places can be reinforced with plastic splints cut from paint bucket plastic, such as the forearms, the gamboised cuisses, and the points of the shoulders -- flexible, padded, and stiffened.

A safety gorget (metal, brigandine, or way-homemade plastic pieces, or heavy leather, all of these with 1/4" depth of padding behind them) tops off your body defenses, and your karate cup (the Nutty Buddy is a good one) preserves your hope of heirs of your body as well as the joy of getting them. I'm begging the question of gauntlets except to suggest some form (metal or leather again) of SCA demigaunts to start, teamed with baskethilt swords and shield cages. Get pairs; don't settle for a single gaunt. The next pair of gaunts to get are mitten gaunts for twohanded weaponry.

Helmets are the easiest gear to borrow, and among the oftenest purchased whole.

Since your immediate goal is getting out on the field in your own equipment, you may want to lay in a good deal of fabric and get friendly with a sewing machine, constructing a long gambeson and gamboised cuisses while you see about getting fanless cops. This will stand you good service for at least a couple of seasons while you gain experience and save up for major purchases, or else have the time to make a good deal of your own.

Make it with very large armholes, set far into the shoulders towards your centerline. The body part of your gambeson ends up looking like a wife-beater undershirt and your upper sleeves should be fairly loose, with the forearms tailored closer. Expect to button the sleeves closed, and close-fit to your arm. Everything around your shoulders should be rather easy, while the waist area should be snug, and then the skirts flare out again, descending to the tops of your kneecaps or a couple inches above. These skirts combined with your gamboised cuisses protect your vulnerable forward leg pretty well, particularly when you start fighting with a smaller shield, which allows more in the way of sword attacks at a small expense to your defense, which must become more skillful.

The gamboised cuisses look a lot like the GDFB ones you linked to in your Want-Ads thread: http://www.knownworldt.com/AB0283.jpg and the gambeson would too, though probably thicker in both.

Jestyr wrote:I'm 5'7" 137 lbs... I think I win the scrawny award.

Hahah.

When I started at 26 years old, I was 6'3"+ and 150 lbs. Long gone from that, thankfully. But back then, had you beat.

Damn, Sir Corby!

I thought I was a rail at 6'7 and 175, which is what I weighed when I started rapier. I was 26, too.

I got up to 230 last year and was pretty unhappy about it. I'm back down to 205-210 now and don't feel especially scrawny. :)

On topic:

I wear a gambeson from Sir Gareth, at gambesons.com. I like them. I like them so much that I now have three -- my original, a green and gold one for war (which I had him omit the felt lining from) and a new one that I plan to paint up with my arms for times I want to be spiffier.

I've used these at Lilies, Pennsic, Estrella, the UK, and out here in NM. I wear a T6 breastplate under it, which acts as a heatsink (and lets me unbutton the thing without looking like an ass in plastic) and under that either an underarmour T-shirt or a linen shirt, depending on desired level of dressiness. I also use them to point shoulder armour and arm armour too (after getting my shoulder separated, I decided just the padding wasn't enough on the points up there).

They're warm in the heat of summer. Pennsic, in the lined gambeson, after I'd had perhaps too many drinks AND after running around in a field battle was the closest I've gotten to an issue, since the sweat cooling stopped with the humidity. At that time I was wearing a kydex breastplate, thoough (since shattered handily by a couple of local knights), and I believe that was Not Hepping (tm). (I've also worn a stainless churburg OVER it at other Pennsics with no issue, but they weren't quite as humid.

For me, it's not about the protection, it's about a place to mount the protection and a way to get the look I want. I realise I cheat in that I don't have the fitted surcoat OVER the armour over the gambeson, but I feel it's a reasonable approximation.

Sir Gareth isn't cheap, but he's done me right and the stuff has held up remarkably well. My 'practice' gambeson has been in service for about 4 years and is faded, with a couple of holes where the aforementioned external breastplate ground against the buckles of my leg belt due to poor fit. I bet the others recommended in this thread are pretty bloody good choices as well.

I wear a padded cote and do not go without it.
What your cote is made from matters quite a bit.
Mine is canvas weight linen shell, 100% cotton batting inside and lined again with linen.
One layer of batting with a second layer in a few areas like the shoulder and upper arms and from the waiste line down.
Linen wicks moisure away from the body.
I have had people put their hands on my cote on hot days and they are supprised to find its actually cool to the touch.
http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/magdalena/
You can find some cote construction tips at the above link.
Just about everyone in my household wears a padded cote like inthe above link.
Synthetic materials in your fabric will make it hot.

Corby de la Flamme wrote:

Jestyr wrote:I'm 5'7" 137 lbs... I think I win the scrawny award.

Hahah.

When I started at 26 years old, I was 6'3"+ and 150 lbs. Long gone from that, thankfully. But back then, had you beat.

LOL... I'm 34!

My first go around, while in college, I was about the same height (maybe an inch shorter?), and weighed 20-25lbs less. So at 5'6" and 115lbs, I think we were about the same!

(This is sort of like a reverse dick measuring contest, where the "winner" is really the loser!)

I wear 2 tunics, each 7oz linen, and it is working fine. I do have additional padding on my bazubands, but the linen has been fine all by itself for everywhere else, including under my spaulders.

Esperanza wrote:Two questions:

How is wearing an arming jacket or gambeson at Pennsic or any other summer event for that matter. Seems like it would be really hot?

It's not the heat, it's the stupidity.

Seriously - yes, gambesons are hot in hot weather (85F+). They are much worse when it's humid (Pennsic). Either you tolerate this well, or you don't.

maxntropy wrote:Most armour bites (I'm not referring to the quality of folks' armour or its appearance... just to the fact that it will tend to pinch).

I am of the opinion that if this happens to you - you need to change your armor. My vambraces chafe my wrists a little, so I wear a wrist band or wrap or something over my shirt. I suppose a gambeson qualifies, but if you are choosing between armor bites and overheating... fix your armor!

Esperanza, where are you located? That will have an effect on your armoury, as in cooler vs warmer climate base.

I have two gambesons that I wear, depending on time of the year and kit. Old Blue has a light cotton liner, three layers of 100% cotton batting, a heavier cotton fabric (trigger) for the outer, all quilted together. Blue has short sleeves, about to the elbow and is just above knee length. It has six ties for front closure. I have a collar to prevent gorget chafing and provide additional patting to the gorget. It is based on the Medieval Miscellania # 101 pattern, modified to fit me, 5'10" 200 lbs. I wore it at Pennsic last year, Wednesday on. Monday and Tuesday at Pennsic I wore a one layer light linen tunic for padding, due to the heat and humidity.

My other gambeson is three layers of quilted heavy linen, long sleeved, mid thigh length, again six ties for closure, with collar. It is a further modification of Old Blue.

I wear either a lamellar coat, a leather and steel plate body bracelet, or a Churburg breast-back plate with either of the gambesons.

Mathghamhain

Thanks to everyone that has replied so far.

I'm in Northern Virginia so I am concerned about the heat and humidity.

I was already hot before at Pennsic so now I am signing up to make myself even hotter. I must be nuts.

Back in the '80s I was fighting in mail over a black gambeson (King's mirror blackened linen inspired) with polyfil filling. Never got heat exhaustion or worse, and never got bruised badly. White linen with cotton filling would be more sensible and historically common. It's amazing how the weight of the mail brings down the shoulders and collar level.

Humidity is a big factor. If you're in a dry climate, a natural-fiber gambeson (or aketon) works well: if you wet it down, you get evaporative cooling. But if it's humid, that doesn't work as well.

I made a nice knee-length, long-sleeved cotton-padded gambeson a few years ago. Looked great, quite protective -- but too hot (for Atlanta). I gradually cut it down, and now it's a sleeveless vest, with holes cut in it for ventilation; worn under a lightweight long-sleeve tunic.

I'm in Mississippi, which is at least as hot and humid as Atlanta or the Chesapeake.

As long as I have worn a cote I have never had armour bite.
Proper authenticly made armour will "bite" as its designed to be worn with a foundation garment.
I have no modern padding, or any sports equipment padding in my kit.
Its simply not needed as the cote is the padding.

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Yes, diamond quilted. Heavy linen outside, wool batting, medium linen inside. Over that a heavy linen fighting tunic then lamellar.

Just want to add, that before this I was wearing a poly sweatshirt and placstic body. Hot and sweaty. When it was really hot out it was like being pickled in ones own juices. Everything soaked.
Now with the new kit, it's is so much cooler. I may feel warm but that is about it. My local SCA had a booth at a local Summer festival. It was around 90 out. I was warm but not uncomfortably hot and contantly downing fluids. The gambeson absorbed and moved any sweat away from the skin and gentle breezes were rather cooling. People kept asking me if I was hot.
We did try to do a combat demo that day in our normal Summer fight practice localtion. A park on an island in the river that runs through town. There is a hydro dam on each side. So the air is quite humid with the spray from both dams. Needless to say the demo didn't last long.
Natural fabrics very good. Humidity bad.

I wear a gambeson but it's mostly to protect myself from my own body armour, which tends to chafe. the sleeves hace pockets for dense foam pads to give a little extra protection to my upper arms.

I simply wear a tunic under my armour. Pending weather, a really thick wool tunic, a lighter weight woolen tunic or a linen tunic. The thick one really acts like an Aketon, the lighter weight wool is my favorite (it breathes but can be abit warm) The linen is Ok but it can sting a bit to get hit in the upper arm

it is really entirely up to you and your pain/heat tolerance, that is why I like the middle one the best.

regards
Thorvaldr

I fight in a gambeson that uses the WMA pattern. slightly modified to add pockets for plastic plates that act as kidney, neck, and spine protection. I wear an under armor shirt to help with cooling. the gambeson itself is made of heavy cotton inner lining, two layers of cotton quilting and heavy linnen outer layer.

I have had no problems with overheating when I just wear my gambeson, only problems that I have had are on very hot days when I have dicided to wear my maille.

I find that the gambeson itself is enough for me for the rest of the body, but if I wanted more protection it would be very easy to add more plate pockets.

B. Amos wrote:I have had no problems with overheating when I just wear my gambeson, only problems that I have had are on very hot days when I have dicided to wear my maille.

It's really interesting that you should mention this. I used to have to wear my surcoat on hot, sunny days to keep the mail cool, i.e.shaded. On windy days, after I had perspired a good bit, I had to wear the surcoat to keep from getting too cold from the evaporative effect. I would have rather fought outdoors in a slight breeze than indoors doing an air-conditioned demo. (An old fighter with a barrel helm taught me to try to turn your face into the wind during fights. This is amazingly refreshing!) When I was really tired and hot at the end of the day, I would remove surcoat and mail, fighting pick-ups in the gambeson alone.