Spear Shafts - Hickory?

[Ismaels-Legacy]

I'm looking to make a spear, but I'm trying to save on shipping costs. Would a replacement hickory handle from a gardening supply store work if I whittle it down a bit? I've noticed that many pre-made spears tend to have ash handles...

[Helgulf]

what would you be using this spear for? that would make the type of wood used for the handle more important. is it just for decoration? is it for equestrian activities or throwing? Is it to look cool while you carry it around? i do love shiny spears!

[Ismaels-Legacy]

Well, I would like to make two spears; one for thrusting (Spear and shield combat) and one for throwing.

[Kilkenny]

I believe there are a couple of factors at work. One, ash runs straighter than hickory, making it an easier/better choice for spear shafts. Two, I think hickory is new world.

In terms of functionality, hickory should work very nicely. It breaks less easily than ash which would make it a superior choice in terms of durability for either throwing or hand held use.

Can anyone confirm or deny the hickory being new world part ?

[Ismaels-Legacy]

So as far as function over form, hickory would be a good choice if not a historically accurate one...

[Jehan de Pelham]

If you're not in a situation where accuracy at the cellular or molecular level is at hand, go ahead with the hickory. That's my rede.

If you're interpreting, just call it ash--most people know jackke and shite about wood species. To those that say "That's hickory" say "Good eye, and you're right--I had to go with hickory due to X but ash was what was used."

Or you can say "They would have used ash but since I couldn't get any, I just went down to the home depot and got a length of hickory."

Just keep in mind that ye olde hickory is a little heavier.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[chef de chambre]

Not only is hickory heavier, it is much less suitable for a spear shaft, although works wonderfully for an axe handle. The grain of ash is far superior for a long hafted weapon - go for poplar, if you want something cheaper, not hickory.

[Ernst]

Can anyone confirm or deny the hickory being new world part ?

You are correct, outside of a few isolated species in China. Either way, it is not accurate for medieval Europe.

[Kilkenny]

Not only is hickory heavier, it is much less suitable for a spear shaft, although works wonderfully for an axe handle. The grain of ash is far superior for a long hafted weapon - go for poplar, if you want something cheaper, not hickory.

Poplar will be a thoroughly disposable choice. Expect it to break in short order in any application.

Ash grows with a naturally straight, long grain. This makes it easy to get a good spear shaft. It also makes it easier to split than a wood like hickory that does not have such long, straight grain.

[Ismaels-Legacy]

So hickory would be a good choice for a serviceable thrusting spear, while poplar would be good for a throwing spear?

[chef de chambre]

So hickory would be a good choice for a serviceable thrusting spear, while poplar would be good for a throwing spear?

Ash and poplar were the standard choices historically in Europe. Poplar may break, but it is cheap, and was the widely used choice south of the Alps.

I should point out that *all* wood hafts will eventually break, and, unlike today, such things were considered expendable, and were expected to be replaced. Most extant hafted weapons with surviving hafts have been re-hafted multiple times.

[chef de chambre]

So hickory would be a good choice for a serviceable thrusting spear, while poplar would be good for a throwing spear?

Hickory isn't a good choice for a spear haft, as the grain isn't as long and straight as required. It makes a good axe haft, and that is about it. Unless you want to deploy a 3' spear, that is.

[hrolf]

I should point out that *all* wood hafts will eventually break, and, unlike today, such things were considered expendable, and were expected to be replaced. Most extant hafted weapons with surviving hafts have been re-hafted multiple times.

This is my grandfather's axe. My father replaced the haft, I replaced the head.

[Kilkenny]

If your supplier has hickory handles of a length that make sense for a spear, there's no practical reason not to use them.

Since this discussion began with your saying that there were handles available that you could reshape a bit to make into spear shafts, and that they were made of hickory, I'm presuming you've got access to some long straight pieces of hickory.

They should be fine for spears.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Bob's right--you can expect the hickory to break, unless you get lucky and find a handle with good grain. But if hickory handles are your only easy option, just have several on hand and see how they do.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Graedwyn]

Speaking as a bowyer,
it is almost impossible to break
a bow made of hickory- if you have
been careful in selecting the grain.
For the spear shaft, you will not be
able to grab just any rake handle from
Home Depot. Look for long straight grain
that does not dive in and out, but follows
the line of the stave.
Poplar is likely to shatter if there is much
stress on it.


-Graedwyn

[chef de chambre]

I've never seen a rake of a length, or diameter to make a spear. 6' isn't a normal spear length, 7'-12'- is.

I have seen a lot of "spears" in circulation, that are as laughable in the application of representing a spear, as my childhood Marx, rubber bladed 'excalibur' I had as a 5 year old, was a representation of a sword.

[Graedwyn]

I have some (old) 6' rake handles that are
1" to 1 1/4" or so thick.
With the spear head on, that should be
around 7' long.
He said he wants to try a garden supply place.
Maybe he will find something that will work.
Otherwise, he could get something from a mill
and shave it.

-Graedwyn

[James B.]

I have a sharp spear that has been thrown many times and two blunts for steel combat that have taken many hacks from blunt swords and axes and all three are in great shape after a number of years of use (4-6).

[Maeryk]

So hickory would be a good choice for a serviceable thrusting spear, while poplar would be good for a throwing spear?

Ash and poplar were the standard choices historically in Europe. Poplar may break, but it is cheap, and was the widely used choice south of the Alps.

I should point out that *all* wood hafts will eventually break, and, unlike today, such things were considered expendable, and were expected to be replaced. Most extant hafted weapons with surviving hafts have been re-hafted multiple times.

Poplar and Alder are basically interchangeable woods, modern day.

You can GET ash in the length and basic shape you want.. you just have to mail order it, rather than pick it up at Home Despot.

http://lawn-and-garden.hardwarestore.co ... 50563.aspx

[James B.]

I made my ash shafts from a board I got at my local hardwood store. I used a table saw make a hex shape and then I just planed sanded it to make it roundish.

[Jeff J]

Poplar and Alder are basically interchangeable woods, modern day.

Not so much. Alder is far softer than poplar.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

There is a reason that they used the materials that they chose for the particular purpose.

Many years of practical application demonstrated that they were the best available materials for the job at hand.

[Kilkenny]

Poplar and Alder are basically interchangeable woods, modern day.

Not so much. Alder is far softer than poplar.

Which poplar are you thinking of here, gentlemen ?

There's Tulip Poplar, which I know Home Depot sells as "poplar" and then there's the Poplar that's related to Aspen and Cottonwood and is quite a different beastie.

Just wondering if you're talking about the same thing...

[Maeryk]

Poplar and Alder are basically interchangeable woods, modern day.

Not so much. Alder is far softer than poplar.

Yup. I meant aspen but my brain went "alder".

Which needs further clarification: Tulip "poplar" is not actually a poplar, but is it's own tree, whereas the "true" poplars are pretty much the same as Aspens.

[Mac]

Tulip tree (Liriodendron tulipifera) is in the magnolia family. In my opinion it is way too brash for handles or shafts. I have used it to build crossbow and hand bow quivers, where strength in not important, and the weird greenish heartwood will be concealed by a leather covering.

I have seen hickory (Carya sp.) that was long enough and straight enough for spears. I have made a couple of long bows on it. I don't know which species it was, but it had grown up in a woods and was straight and limbless for about ten feet. You have to chose your tree.

All in all, ash (Fraxinus sp.) seems like a better bet for spears. It is frequently longer and straighter than hickory, almost as strong in tension, and slightly less dense. It is also, of course, an Old World genus if that is important to you.

I handled a big long pike in the RA long ago, and it certainly looked like ash.

Mac

[Buran]

Poplar and Alder are basically interchangeable woods, modern day.

Not so much. Alder is far softer than poplar.

Probably thinking poplar and willow.

[Buran]

I'm looking to make a spear, but I'm trying to save on shipping costs. Would a replacement hickory handle from a gardening supply store work if I whittle it down a bit? I've noticed that many pre-made spears tend to have ash handles...

Ismael (if I can call you that), what group are you mustering with, and what sort of standards do they have?

[Ismaels-Legacy]

Heh. I'm not exactly mustering with anyone. I ordered a viking style spear head to throw around for fun, really.

[Cap'n Atli]

You can usually get long ash shafts for broom handles from industrial and janitorial supply dealers. They tend to be under 1", but (at least in an Anglo-Saxon context) many spear shafts were relatively light: between 1/2" and 3/4". Actually, a lot were pollarded stock and frequently of whatever species was handy, including occasional willow (!).

Viking spear shafts tended to be heavier, sometimes as much as an inch or 1 1/4".

Many spears, especially throwing spears and javelins, seemed to be semi-expendable. If you won the engagement, you could retrieve it at your leisure; and if you lost, you had other things on your mind than recovering your throwing spear.

Naval battles must have been somewhat more wasteful. (In which case, I like nice, fist-sized, rocks.)

[Sean M]

Just to resurrect this thread ... Cap'n Atli ended up posting his information on spears in graves in Britain from 400 to 700 CE on Sword Forum International in 2005 (backed up on Age of Datini). In case that link ever breaks, he mentioned the sites Alton in Hampshire; Worthy Park at Kingsworthy near Winchester, Hampshire; Bifrons in Kent; Sewerby in Yorkshire; and Empingham II in Rutland.

Two studies of spears in Britain before the Iron Age examined a total of about 70 spears or traces of spears in the sockets of spearheads and ferrules. About 63% of their sample were made of ash wood. Another 25% were made of oak, hazel, yew, or a family called maloideae which includes apple, pear, medlar, quince, serviceberry, and hawthorn. The remaining 12% were made from an assortment of other woods.

Edit: spearheads and ferrules from the Roman period in a French collection contained remains of ash wood, ash wood, elm wood, and an unidentified wood: L. Bonnamour (ed.), Du Silex à La Poudre: 4,000 ans d’armement en val de saône: exposition, 1990-1991 (Editions Monique Mergoil: Montagnac, France) pp. 98-100

Edit: Victor Gay found two references to lances of fir, one from the 12th century and one from a tournament in 1495. Bonoit's Chronicle of the Dukes of Normandy volume i page 214 has "And on brynies of fine mail/They broke a thousand lances of fir (sapin)". Pine or fir lances would probably break with a nice loud crack and impress the crowd.

In 1488, the armourers of Angers said that henceforth all staves of javelins should be of ash or linden (!) not pine because pine is too breakable (item 7).

Galeron found some sources for horsemen's lances of ash or beech (for war) and pine (for friendly play) in the 15th and 16th century "Lance Construction," Will's Commonplace Book

I have to say I have not seen sources for spears of European poplar let alone the American tulip tree which gets called poplar. But it seems that while ash was the favourite, there were many other woods which could do the job.

In the Bronze Age Centre thread I linked, an archaeologist says that he has seen spears in early medieval graves made from round wood, and spears in early medieval graves made from wedges of timber. So I think its easy to overthink whether to cut a nice straight shoot, or saw off a piece of plank and work it down with hand tools or on a lathe. Do what you can with the tools and materials you can get.

[Johann ColdIron]

WOW, the way back machine! Miss many of the posters in this thread...

Great info Sean! One of the biggest challenges for US based reenactors is wood choice AND availability. American woods may be named after similar European species but they are not always analogous.

European Poplar and US Tulip Poplar have different characteristics. The US having less durability in terms of flex because if it's quick growth, IIRC. Red Oak is right out because it is a US only species and it's ring porous nature leads to splitting along these and making jagged broken shafts. I've heard tales from oldtimers using Red Oak as speak shafts back when rocks were soft and some dramatic, potentially life threatening breaks that happened before rattan was required for armoured combat.

Ash still rules the roost in terms of long straight grain and habit of growth. In terms of using a length of tree or cutting a portion and reducing it to size from a larger trunk probably depends on waht was available. Coppicing trees, especially Ash makes for regrowth of secondary growth into straight slender "trunks" branching out from a larger central stump. It was used for all sorts of wood products and projects as is. http://www.coppice.co.uk/woodland-types ... ltivation/ I've got an ash that is doing this from some trimming I did, by accident. I'm eyeballing one particular sprout to turn into a pike shaft...

With larger lengths of trunk you can cut/split them into planks radially to get relatively straight grained trapezoids of shaft stock that can be further reduced to hexagonal tapers that spear and pikes traditionally used. The big issue with this is LABOR. While cheap in period it takes a lot of time to saw through trunks. Splitting wood green and then shaving it dry was one traditional way of doing it. Chair Bodgers worked that way. Best thing about splitting is it cuts less fibers and follows the grain to make for a stronger shaft.

Hickory is used in the US for shafts and tool handles because of its prevalence and similar long grain characteristics to Ash. I can see fruit tree wood being good as it is good for tool handles but it tends to be branchy and many limbed these days. Where those branch knots are tend to be where a shaft fails.

[Otto von Teich]

https://peaveymfg.com/collections/woode ... -72-to-192 I got a couple of these in 8' lengths for halberd replacement shafts. Very nice quality, one was perfectly straight the other had a very slight warp. Octagonal shape was a plus.

[woodwose]

The ash poles I use in this video came from Peavey, the place that Otto linked to...
https://youtu.be/FJPJsYC6wEA?t=328
They seem pretty happy to do custom work. The poles I got are 10' and 16' ash pickpoles with dowel shaped ends instead of handle shaped ends. 15 or so years ago they also made me a 16' custom tapered pike shaft.

[Sean M]

I think I remember John Waldman saying that cutting polearms usually have flat sides to help edge alignment, while pure thrusting polearms like spears and pikes tend to be round in cross-section.

The ash poles I use in this video came from Peavey, the place that Otto linked to...
https://youtu.be/FJPJsYC6wEA?t=328
They seem pretty happy to do custom work. The poles I got are 10' and 16' ash pickpoles with dowel shaped ends instead of handle shaped ends. 15 or so years ago they also made me a 16' custom tapered pike shaft.

How did Peavey Mfg handle shipping within the United States? Most dealers in the USA are choosing to either not ship outside the USA right now, or to charge extortionate shipping (USD 55 for a USD 13 knife blade which should fit within one of the USPS flat rate boxes). And I honestly have no idea what shipping a 10' long item from Maine to say Tennessee would be like for American forumites. Most shippers have restrictions on dimensions don't they?