The Armour Archive

It's become time to finally retire a not very correct heraldic tabard that our Barony uses for it's Herald (it has fun fur!). I'd like to have something that's correct and doesn't really use the SCA College of Heralds trumpets except possibly on the shoulder/sleeve portions.

If anyone has some cool photos of your heralds, baronial or kingdom, and can share them for some inspiration for me, that'd be awesome. Our Barony has a very Viking flavour to it from the past but it's by no means the rule.

I'm debating some kind of houpplande because I like big and flowy... however, I'm willing to go for the side split front/back Baronial arms with the SCA college trumpets on the sleeve flap. But I'd just like to see what others have done...

Thanks in advance,
Griffin
Baronial Herald of Septentria

I don't think I have ever seen any real Heralds tabard in my Kingdom, but Karens(she the goddess of find on the internet) sight has a bunch of artwork and some photos of extant one...

http://www.larsdatter.com/heralds.htm

This one from the 16C is UNREAL....If I had to be a court herald...I would definatley want something like this...

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI02343f08a.jpg

Thanks, Eamonn!

I gotta say, though, the really unreal ones are the 18th century examples, like:
http://www.scotlandsimages.com/Respages ... =32&curr=0
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/ ... 44111.html
http://www.armoury.co.uk/milants1/mabigh177.htm
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/objectid/O115774
http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record. ... -082-403-C
There's an early 19th century tabard available from http://www.rls.org.uk/search/full.php too. But again, the examples above are all 18th century, so they're nifty, but probably not what you're really looking for. (There's some great close-up photos of some splendid 18th century heraldic embroidery in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/030012967X?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=030012967X">English Embroidery in the Metropolitan Museum 1580-1700: 'Twixt Art and Nature</a> too, FWIW.)

I should also note that there does seem to generally be a difference between the tabard that one's herald would wear, and the surcoat (or jupon, coat-armor, etc.) that one would wear with one's own heraldry. You can compare http://www.larsdatter.com/heralds.htm to http://larsdatter.com/mens-surcoats.htm to see the different styles involved. (The "houppelande" style isn't really something we see on medieval heralds, from what I can tell, unless you have a different definition for "some kind of houppelande" than I do.)

Another thing to note at http://www.larsdatter.com/heralds.htm is that you don't see as much of the parcelled-out heraldry that sometimes comes up on SCA heralds' tabards (in terms of kingdom badge on this arm-flap, heralds' trumpets on that arm-flap, etc.) -- if the heralds' sleeves have any armorial decoration at all, it's the same sort of armorial decoration as the front (and, presumably, the back).

Karen Larsdatter wrote:Another thing to note at http://www.larsdatter.com/heralds.htm is that you don't see as much of the parcelled-out heraldry that sometimes comes up on SCA heralds' tabards (in terms of kingdom badge on this arm-flap, heralds' trumpets on that arm-flap, etc.) -- if the heralds' sleeves have any armorial decoration at all, it's the same sort of armorial decoration as the front (and, presumably, the back).

Thank you for writing this, Karen. This is something that really isn't appropriate. And for some reason, it happens all the time. Look - no one is going to mistake the average protocol herald for the king just because he's wearing the Kingdom arms in tabard form. For one thing, kings tend to wear rather distinctive shiny hats. For another, they tend to be strapping lads. For yet another, chances are you're louder than he is.

So let's say "Enough!" to the Vert, two trumpets in saltire Or on the demi-sleeves of heraldic tabards. (Don't even get me started on baldics...)

You're a herald. You're the Official Voice of the noble for whom you're working. Thus you wear his armory.* You are him; so long as you wear the tabard, you are officially his representative, his ambassador, the voice of him and his people. You are most likely recognizably not him, and you're doing herald-y stuff, so the dimmest nitwit will cotton that you're a herald; thus, going the green-sleeves-with-trumpets thing is not only historically inappropriate, it's just plain silly. Same with the Kingdom arms on front and back with Kingdom badges on the sleeves, or quartered, or whatever. It looks flash, but it's really inappropriate.

Speaking of which, I need to make myself a new EK tabard. I've got some purple silk around here somewhere...

I have a dream of making a collar of estate comprised of the armory of each SCA noble for whom I've ever "worked". Yeah. Right. Soon as I teach myself how to cast bronze and then enamel (or whatever it's called). It'd be farking righteous, though!

All I'm saying is that I really can't abide the green-with-trumpets thing. If you're a Herald, wear the armory of your noble (or Shire or whatever).

Cheers,

Bob

* Masculine used as neutral.

My own tabard (I'm the Conch Herald in Atlantia) bears the Kingdom arms front and back, and has the trumpets on the right sleeve. That sleeve decoration is a nod to the SCAdian tradition and a little assurance that no, I'm not masquerading as the King of Atlantia.

Here I amwearing it.

When I first started wearing it, several people asked my boss (Triton Principal Herald) why I was wearing his tabard. There had been this belief that only T. H. E. herald of any group could wear that group's arms on a tabard. I'm doing my best to overcome that misunderstanding. Fortunately, both the Tritons I have served agree with this.

Some years ago, Baroness Clare de Crecy made tabards for all the Baronies then active in Atlantia. This pictureshows the one she made for Marinus. Those tabards have the arms only on the front.

(The surcote I'm wearing is that of the Baronial Armoured Champion. I wear several hats)

As Bob points out, Heralds historically wear the coat armours of their masters.

One should note, that heralds tabards (the tabard is the 15th century evolution of the coat armour, not seen prior, and now the customary heraldic display of heralds in the real world since) are always worn open, and unbelted, and they seem to have been interlined for stiffening, in an opposite manner from tabards intending to be worn over armours by knights and lords, to ease the display of heraldry for the viewer of the herald.

I will serve as the herald for the team of Duchess Melisande de Belvoir at Atlantia's Tourney of the Golden Rose this weekend.

For it, my Lady Wife is making me a tabard bearing Her Grace's Arms. Glad am I that it is a simple design. I have references that it was not uncommon for a herald to "don the coat" of a lord other than his usual employer for special occasions where extra heralds were needed.

brewer wrote:So let's say "Enough!" to the Vert, two trumpets in saltire Or on the demi-sleeves of heraldic tabards. (Don't even get me started on baldics...)

You know, I bet it would look pretty good (for those heralds who are more "at large" and want to signify their status as such) to wear something like the heralds' tabards & cloaks in these 15th century scenes from the Legend of St. Ursula, but using the crossed-trumpets badge:
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/koeln_ar06020b.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/koeln_ar06021b.jpg

There's similar sorts of small badges on the gowns worn by some of the men behind the heralds in the Tournament-Book of King René (see for example BNF Fr. 2695, fols. 3v, 7, and 11) but I am unsure whether these signify servants' livery, heralds of lower status, or what.

THere is no indicator that those men are heralds, specifically. They are wearing livery, and are as likely high-status servants as anything else.

I agree with Chef on that. There was a custom of giving messengers a small escutcheon of their master's arms like that. In some periods there was a sort of visual code as to what one's status was by where he wore it.

Heralds did wear them in lieu of tabards on occasion, especially for less-formal or less-important events. That is a custom I'd like to adapt for the SCA. The only trouble is how to obtain the little escutcheons. I haven't the artistic ability to make them myself.

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:(I'm the Conch Herald in Atlantia)

Does that mean if I hold you close to my ear, I can hear the ocean?

I wrote:(I'm the Conch Herald in Atlantia)

Jestyr wrote:Does that mean if I hold you close to my ear, I can hear the ocean?

If you hold me close to your ear, you might not hear anything for a while

Jestyr wrote:

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:(I'm the Conch Herald in Atlantia)

Does that mean if I hold you close to my ear, I can hear the ocean?

Oh, whew. From this crowd, I expected a Lord of the Flies joke.

Only if barbequed pork is on the menu. Cooked by fire lit with a magnifying lens.