The Armour Archive

...Specifically, stocked barrels, with an elevating trail at the frame - pre cast trunnion canon elefvation technology.

They clearly have a pivot point that is a part of the stock of the barrel, and the carriage itself, which is usually obscured in artwork and photographs by the carriage wheels.

Anyone have an idea of how that pivot point works? It seems logical from what you can see that the cheeks of the stock extend down at the sides in a C or D shape, to accomodate whatever pin it pivots on, but what about the parts you don't see? Presumably, the carriage has in the center a matching extension for a pivot pin to pass through, that sets into a matching recess in the center of the cannons stock.

What of the pin itself? Would it be iron or wood? There are a couple of reconstructions of carriages, and a couple of late-in life re-stockings of barrels, that may or may not follow the form of the original they replaced.

Does anyone have photographs, or diagrams, or historical art from the era showing the system?

can you post a ill. or photo of the type of cannon you are describing? I have a bunch of illustrations of late period cannon, but I am not familiar with cannon, so I don't know what type you are looking for.

Well, I don't have a funtional scanner unfortunately. Are you familiar with the "Venus and Mars" catalog (Master of the Housbook)? There are a number of good illustrations of the type in the section on 'War'.

Or, the Diebold Schilling 1483 Berne Chronicle (there are some images printed in the Osprey books "The Swiss at War", "The Armies of Medieval Burgundy", and "The English Longbowman"), the illustrations of Swiss and Burgundian siege camps outside of Grandson, or the battle of Morat.

THis is going to be a trestle mounted rampart gun, instead of having wheels, but the mounting of the stock to trestle is the same as a serpentine to a wheeled field carriage.

I have likely a hundred or more period images - the join is never illustrated, but usually concealed by the carriage wheel, but what I need is a close up photo of the join on an existing one, or a diagram from the period showing the seperate parts, like the Da Vinci sketchbooks, or, failing that, someone who has made a modern reconstruction who can tell me the method they have used.

You definitely need to look at illustrated 15th century military manuals as they have drawings of all sorts of stuff in them, both illuminations and woodcuts. I've never looked in there for this question.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20483/20 ... 0483-h.htm

Sorry, I am still confused as to the type of cannon you want. Can you point out the cannon on the above link?

Ok, so bare with me. I am having to learn about Cannon as well as try and figure out what type of cannon you are looking for. "Trunnions" are the pivot points extending out the sides of the barrel about 1/2 way down the length right? They are cast into the barrel right?

So, a pre cast trunnion would have 1 or 2 loops at the bottom of the barrel at roughly 1/2 the length right?

What you are wanting is to know how those loops are socketed in the carriage and what the through pin is made of?

Here are some images of the cannon book I have:










Note the metal pin at the bottom of the ill. The one with no trunnions on the barrel?







I have larger verions of these pics, I just didn't want to over load the AA. If any of these are what you are looking for tell me and I will shoot you a full res version of it.

Actually, I can work on this.

I have (someplace) in the house a poster from a museum exhibit that shows (if I recall correctly) five different methods for adjusting period field pieces (some little larger than gonnes, but some bigger) for both windage and elevation.

Also, if I recall correctly, they have a number of medieval field pieces in the museum in the castle in Nurnberg. While I am not sure whether or not you could categorically say that the carriages are accurate for the period presented (wood and such doesn't always last seven hundred or so years) I am betting that the actual guns are unchanged.

And I have a buddy that is going to be taking the historical tour of Nurnberg in a week or so. This is the sort of thing that (I expect) he would love to help with.

No promises, mind you, but I will check on it.

freiman

A cannon at Pevensy:

[img]http://www.visit1066country.com/pevensey/images/home_image.jpg[/img]

Burgundian style Cannon:

http://diva.sfsu.edu/bundles/177935

Click the image it enlarges.

InsaneIrish wrote:Ok, so bare with me. I am having to learn about Cannon as well as try and figure out what type of cannon you are looking for. "Trunnions" are the pivot points extending out the sides of the barrel about 1/2 way down the length right? They are cast into the barrel right?

So, a pre cast trunnion would have 1 or 2 loops at the bottom of the barrel at roughly 1/2 the length right?

What you are wanting is to know how those loops are socketed in the carriage and what the through pin is made of?

Here are some images of the cannon book I have:







I have larger verions of these pics, I just didn't want to over load the AA. If any of these are what you are looking for tell me and I will shoot you a full res version of it.

Thanks very much for taking the time to post these. While they are 50 years post the date I'm looking for, the image I didn't edit out is the closest, showing the trunionless barrel, pivoting on the carriage and stock, with elevating gear.

What is weird about the image to me, is the barrel has fully evolved dolphins, but no trunnions, very odd. The earliest trunnions cast in place I am aware of is on an extant Courteau, cicra 1475, that is part of the Burgundian loot.

Yes, my question concerns the through-pin, and the loop of the carriage it would pass through, as the stock cheeks it passes through are usually visible to some degree.

Thanks very much again.

Piers Brent wrote:You definitely need to look at illustrated 15th century military manuals as they have drawings of all sorts of stuff in them, both illuminations and woodcuts. I've never looked in there for this question.

I've looked at the Fireworks book images, and Taccola (that shows all sorts of interesting lifting tackle for barrels, and even a portable crane for mounting and dismounting bombards), and the Wolfegg housbook (clearest images), but nothing I have seen shows the carriages dissassembled, or a head on image to see the critical part of the carriage.

I can make something that I know will work, but I want to be accurate in reproduction, not just functional. I *think* I know how it probably was done, I'd just like more than speculation to go on.

freiman the minstrel wrote:Actually, I can work on this.

I have (someplace) in the house a poster from a museum exhibit that shows (if I recall correctly) five different methods for adjusting period field pieces (some little larger than gonnes, but some bigger) for both windage and elevation.

Also, if I recall correctly, they have a number of medieval field pieces in the museum in the castle in Nurnberg. While I am not sure whether or not you could categorically say that the carriages are accurate for the period presented (wood and such doesn't always last seven hundred or so years) I am betting that the actual guns are unchanged.

And I have a buddy that is going to be taking the historical tour of Nurnberg in a week or so. This is the sort of thing that (I expect) he would love to help with.

No promises, mind you, but I will check on it.

freiman

Thank you very much.

InsaneIrish wrote:A cannon at Pevensy:

[img]http://www.visit1066country.com/pevensey/images/home_image.jpg[/img]

Burgundian style Cannon:

http://diva.sfsu.edu/bundles/177935

Click the image it enlarges.

The Pevensy cannon is definitely a later method, the Swedish gun is the correct class of piece, but the gun and frame are (slightly) earlier solutions. You see in Spanish art some guns still mounted like that as late as the 1480's though.

InsaneIrish wrote:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_cannon_in_Avignon.JPG

THe gun in the fopreground is an attempt at a reconstruction of the pivoting method, but the stock of the gun is the exterior on 15th century images, while whoever built this one speculated using later methods and put cheeks for it to pivot on, I think.

The cheeks of that would break with any serious use, unfortunately.

chef de chambre wrote:Well, I don't have a funtional scanner unfortunately. Are you familiar with the "Venus and Mars" catalog (Master of the Housbook)? There are a number of good illustrations of the type in the section on 'War'.

Or, the Diebold Schilling 1483 Berne Chronicle (there are some images printed in the Osprey books "The Swiss at War", "The Armies of Medieval Burgundy", and "The English Longbowman"), the illustrations of Swiss and Burgundian siege camps outside of Grandson, or the battle of Morat.

THis is going to be a trestle mounted rampart gun, instead of having wheels, but the mounting of the stock to trestle is the same as a serpentine to a wheeled field carriage.

I have likely a hundred or more period images - the join is never illustrated, but usually concealed by the carriage wheel, but what I need is a close up photo of the join on an existing one, or a diagram from the period showing the seperate parts, like the Da Vinci sketchbooks, or, failing that, someone who has made a modern reconstruction who can tell me the method they have used.

Chef, when do you assume trunions appeared?

Look for "Chronique d'Angleterre" by Jean de Wavrin.. there's at least one illustration showing a gun pivoting in a veritical upright, and another with an adjustable trace, but it looks like the entire carriage pivots in the second instance, around the wheels.

Guns built during the reign of Edward IV had trunions on them.. tht can be documented by the petarara.

Max's guns (1495-1500) also had trunions, adn a wedge was used to adjust the verictical range between the bottom (back) of the barrel and the top of the carriage.

I'll dig for some more illustrations though.

chef de chambre wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_cannon_in_Avignon.JPG

THe gun in the fopreground is an attempt at a reconstruction of the pivoting method, but the stock of the gun is the exterior on 15th century images, while whoever built this one speculated using later methods and put cheeks for it to pivot on, I think.

The cheeks of that would break with any serious use, unfortunately.

Nah..those cheeks won't break.. that's only like, a 2 inch gun. They simply don't kick that much. In fact, if you go look at period guns you'll find much larger bore tubes mounted on lighter and smaller carriages.


Now.. that big bombard you see in the back left? Yeah. That's gonna eat carriages over time.

WOOT! Scannage ensued.. I knew I kept these huge books around for a reason!

Here's a couple of ideas, Chef.

[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/maeryk/cannon1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/maeryk/cannon2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/maeryk/cannon3.jpg[/img]

And I'm seeing this style a lot in the images I'm reading:

chef de chambre wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:Ok, so bare with me. I am having to learn about Cannon as well as try and figure out what type of cannon you are looking for. "Trunnions" are the pivot points extending out the sides of the barrel about 1/2 way down the length right? They are cast into the barrel right?

So, a pre cast trunnion would have 1 or 2 loops at the bottom of the barrel at roughly 1/2 the length right?

What you are wanting is to know how those loops are socketed in the carriage and what the through pin is made of?

Here are some images of the cannon book I have:







I have larger verions of these pics, I just didn't want to over load the AA. If any of these are what you are looking for tell me and I will shoot you a full res version of it.

Thanks very much for taking the time to post these. While they are 50 years post the date I'm looking for, the image I didn't edit out is the closest, showing the trunionless barrel, pivoting on the carriage and stock, with elevating gear.

What is weird about the image to me, is the barrel has fully evolved dolphins, but no trunnions, very odd. The earliest trunnions cast in place I am aware of is on an extant Courteau, cicra 1475, that is part of the Burgundian loot.

Yes, my question concerns the through-pin, and the loop of the carriage it would pass through, as the stock cheeks it passes through are usually visible to some degree.

Thanks very much again.

The are in this one, too. Look above and forward of the wheel hub.. that red dot is the pin.

Maeryk wrote:

chef de chambre wrote:Well, I don't have a funtional scanner unfortunately. Are you familiar with the "Venus and Mars" catalog (Master of the Housbook)? There are a number of good illustrations of the type in the section on 'War'.

Or, the Diebold Schilling 1483 Berne Chronicle (there are some images printed in the Osprey books "The Swiss at War", "The Armies of Medieval Burgundy", and "The English Longbowman"), the illustrations of Swiss and Burgundian siege camps outside of Grandson, or the battle of Morat.

THis is going to be a trestle mounted rampart gun, instead of having wheels, but the mounting of the stock to trestle is the same as a serpentine to a wheeled field carriage.

I have likely a hundred or more period images - the join is never illustrated, but usually concealed by the carriage wheel, but what I need is a close up photo of the join on an existing one, or a diagram from the period showing the seperate parts, like the Da Vinci sketchbooks, or, failing that, someone who has made a modern reconstruction who can tell me the method they have used.

Chef, when do you assume trunions appeared?

Look for "Chronique d'Angleterre" by Jean de Wavrin.. there's at least one illustration showing a gun pivoting in a veritical upright, and another with an adjustable trace, but it looks like the entire carriage pivots in the second instance, around the wheels.

Guns built during the reign of Edward IV had trunions on them.. tht can be documented by the petarara.

Max's guns (1495-1500) also had trunions, adn a wedge was used to adjust the verictical range between the bottom (back) of the barrel and the top of the carriage.

I'll dig for some more illustrations though.

Guns with trunnions first appeared in the 1440's, and are documented in records of the Bureau Brothers, who were the Masters of the French artillery for Charles VII of France. The earliest surviving *cast* tube with *integral* trunnions, is a large bronze courteau, one of the tubes of the Burgundian booty, which was cast in 1474 (dated on the tube), and is documented in 'Die Burgunderbeute", and "The Artillery of the Dukes of Burgundy".

What is unusual about the image I centered on, is the piece is very late to have no trunnions, while it has no trunnions, it has cast dolphins, which would make in unique to the best of my knowledge.

Maeryk wrote:WOOT! Scannage ensued.. I knew I kept these huge books around for a reason!

Here's a couple of ideas, Chef.


[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/maeryk/cannon3.jpg[/img]

Thanks for posting this.

This particular image shows two guns with the mounting system I am talking about. It (all thrree scans you posted, really) is a modern artists rendering of the artwork in the Wolfegg hausbuch, which I have. Above it (middle image you posted) is a courteaux, of the form of the oldest extant speciman with cast trunnions

The problem is that with this drawing, and the Maximilian gun you point out the red pin in, is they are not rendered from the front, to see how wide the carriages 'loop' for the through pin is, and to see whether it is part of the wood of the carriage, or if it is a seperate fitting of iron that is fixed through the carriage, which is the puzzle I am trying to figure out.

Nevermind - reverse that order, you can't see the cheeks of the carriages thickness, and the resulting thickness of the accomodation for the through-pin of the stock, which is the central bit with this arragement.

Too thin, and it will crack with recoil, too thick, and it makes it as heavy as hell. Ours will be competing in shooting in the smoothbore catagory of the AAA, so it is more of a consideration than in a piece that is just fired without shot for demonstration purposes. It will recoil (jump, as the carriage isn't wheeled, but a trestle) with shot being fired - more strain on the frame than otherwise.

Maeryk wrote:And I'm seeing this style a lot in the images I'm reading:

There are at least 3 reconstructed carriages out there like that in museums with original tubes - one in Madrid, one in the Castelo San Angelo, and they are all based on late 14th early 15th century art.

It is an easier solution for what I want to do, but too early, and less mobile - the trestle mount can be moved by 3 men, one each side on a trestle leg, and the third on a ring on the trail - like moving a machinegun on a tripod, but without dismounting the barrel. If you have ever seen the Lucern Schilling, the 1500 one, it has a couple of guns like these (although pivoting on trunions, which is A-OK for 1502 or so when it is drawn, but not so correct for 1476, which was when the tubes were captured )- all the tubes in this class captured by the Swiss originally mounted no trunnions, but had a forge welded band with trunnions added at some unknown point in their working life.

The top one I reposted in the brace of two Wolfegg cannon, will be the solution I go for, eliminating the side frames, and replacing the screw with a simple elevating frame with pins, wheels dissapear, replaced by trestle legs.

chef de chambre wrote:The top one I reposted in the brace of two Wolfegg cannon, will be the solution I go for, eliminating the side frames, and replacing the screw with a simple elevating frame with pins, wheels dissapear, replaced by trestle legs.

Well, in the next one down you can fairly clearly see how wide the cheeks are by the gap in the rear where upper carriage piece drops through.

I'd say your best bet is to get your tolerance at that drop-leaf joint as tight as you can, so the force is transmitted to the wood surface, rather than the bushing it pivots on.

The one you are talking about may not even _have_ a pivot pin. the notch where the curved elevation rails sit in the rear of the upper trace may be all that was used to locate the gun to the carraige. The only real "force" you are worried about is backwards, after all. They didn't (and don't) tend to slide forwards much.

Chef,
Arms and Armour by Frederick Wilkinson has one of Leonardo da Vinci's drawings on page 81. I have no scanner at present, but that is where it is.

In his drawings, (theoretical?) the pieces all have swivel yokes similar to a swivel gun on a parapet or ship....

Yeah, they wouldn't work for the kind of guntube we have - no trunions for the swivel-yoke.

Thanks for the tip, and I will go and hunt down the images.