The Armour Archive

I was wondering what some opinions are about a particular circumstance I'd heard about a while ago. The scenario as I get it went something like this (I wasn't there, so this is complete hear say):

A spearman in a melee was working his spear over the front line of his own shieldmen jabbing into the front lines of the opposing force. Each time he would make a jab, someone on the opposing side would swing a stick or pole weapon to foul the shot. Eventually a marshal called the spearman over (not sure if a hold was called) and was summarily informed that his spear had been broken (or it WOULD have been broken had it taken the multitude of chops from opponent weapons). Needless to say the spear man was infuriated by the ruling.

Now, the only rule I've seen regarding this is section IV sub section C in the SCA marshal's handbook. And we all know that the rules of the list are very wide open to interpretation.

And personally, I'm a bit on the fence about it. On the one hand, if you're leaving your hypothetically wooden spear shaft out there long enough for your opponent to hack at it like a machette on jungle overgrowth, (and they've whacked it like 70-100 times), maybe technically it would have been chopped off.

But on the other hand, I feel that shields are invulnerable and to a certain extent swords. Even when they physically do break, so long as you are controling it with your arm, it's still nullifying any blow that even partially glances off of it, even if it's a mass weapon that technically would have ripped your arm off, or broken your forearm in a real battle. a marshal is unlikely to drag you off of the field because your shield was hit too many times.

Also in comparison, a combat missile is dead if it touches the ground (e.g. if you're a crossbowman and you're prone, loading your weapon and the arrow brushes against the ground; it's techincally dead). Just as if you set it down for a moment on the ground to adjust yourself. It's still a dead arrow. Even a bow or entire bag of arrows are "dead" if they are touched by an opponent's weapon or missile.

So, how would you feel about the ruling, assuming you were the spearman. Is this a case of "Suck it up, you wuss! And go get another spear!" or is this a case of marshalus intrudus?
-Cian

There are a lot of things that 'would have happened' but I think we play outside of realism quite a bit.

Our game has its own rule set and I think we should follow that rule set (as long as it's safe and reasonable, blah blah blah). I don't like the idea of calling a spear dead. We don't call swords or shields dead, we shouldn't call spears dead either.

My $0.02.

I would respectfully observe that the haft of my spear was not, in fact, broken, and would invite the marshal to inspect it. If he then insisted that it was broken 'in the game', I would suggest that a large number of shields be removed from the field for having been riven, as well as ask if he intended to start calling people's shots for them.

I would make it a point of 1) being insultingly polite, and 2) involving every bystander (particularly knights and royals) within earshot.

Marshal should have been brought to a Marshals Court for ruling.

While i agree with what has been said there is a rule about sword being broken during a fight, but your sword has to be laying on your helm and get hit or based on the top of your shield. Think it is 3 hits like that and the sword is considered broken. I have only ever heard one marshal ever bring it up though and that was many moons ago.

I would have told the marshal to show me the rule he was asking me to follow or get bent.

Balin

I would say that the marshal made an error of judgment in his call.

Were we to interpret our rules as providing for what he chose to enforce in that situation, we would either need to come to the field with numerous back-up weapons and pretty much all change out in the course of any large bridge battle, or swiftly be down to bare handed fighting - which, of course, we don't allow.

I've never seen such a call made. Get your sword "anvilled" against your helm or shield three times and have it called broken, yes - that's specifically provided for in the rules. "Your spear's been hacked through, get another weapon" ? Never heard of it.

It would only be relevant for increased realism if it went along with destructible shields and a long list of other things. In terms of the "return on investment" it doesn't even rate consideration

Once again. I wasn't there to witness it, but what I'm getting here is that, *IF* say the spear was resting on a person's helm or shield WHEN it was struck, then it's totally understandable ruling, yes?
(and maybe that happened and the person just skipped over that detail in retelling the story that the spear was braced the moment it was being chopped at).
-Cian

I'm not a wood expert but I'm going to guess it would take a whole lot of lazy sword hits to break and ash spear shaft. Same is true of shields. You may maul the edge of it or get something stuck in it but they take a licking as well.

I don't believe there is any rule in our sport about calling spears dead. Here is the only situation where I think the marshal should make that call:

D. Sebastian wrote:Marshal should have been brought to a Marshals Court for ruling.

This.

Here's the relevant passage from Caid's rules:
"Blows repeatedly blocked by a weapon in contact with a fighter’s helm, body, or shield at the moment of impact may, at the Sovereign’s or Marshal’s discretion, be considered to have broken the blocking weapon. This will force a fighter to forfeit the fight, unless a secondary weapon is carried or the opponent chooses to allow the fighter to rearm with another weapon."

As I understand this rule, it is intended to prevent the defending fighter from taking advantage of a type of blocking that is otherwise acceptable under the rules, but considered cheesy. I really think it does not apply to the case in question here. The marshal was out of line, based on the facts as you've presented them.

Piers - depends on the time and place. Shields were acknowledged to be shattered, riven, or even encumbered by a weapon (wedged in so that it could not readily be removed) on a regular basis in the Viking Age. I'm not so sure about the period of our assumed armor standard, but I would guess that some of the same still occurred. Spear shafts were sometimes reinforced, supposedly to prevent the heads being chopped off.

I think that both shields and spears would have to be destructible, IF we wanted to be more realistic. Down that road lies madness, I'll take the game as we play it.

I am a big believer that a shieldman should be able to tell when his shield would be hacked apart. During the COTT and other 14th Century Mafia type events, shields may sometimes have to be discarded.

I'm willing to make some nice shields and seriously hack them up as tests. Who will loan me the weapons? Or I could make some shields and send them to somebody who has lot of mid-quality repro stuff around- sharpened poleaxes, swords and spears.

Perhaps a rule in special melee events where if your spear takes 3 solid hits for THE SAME two handed weapon (great sword, bill, pole axe or whatever) the OWNER of the spear calls the spear broken and has to step back from the combat for 30 seconds or so to "get another spear"... same with shields, maybe give them 5 hits or something.

That would put great swords, bills and poleaxes back in their place as spear and shield wall breakers.

people make mistakes. Even marshalls. Appeal to his boss, failing that the king. Oh, and I guess bring a back up spear!

Cian of Storvik wrote:Ithis a case of marshalus intrudus
-Cian

Shields don't break, and weapons don't get stuck in them, either.

And MY spears and poleweapons have langlets.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I am a big believer that a shieldman should be able to tell when his shield would be hacked apart. During the COTT and other 14th Century Mafia type events, shields may sometimes have to be discarded.

I'm willing to make some nice shields and seriously hack them up as tests. Who will loan me the weapons? Or I could make some shields and send them to somebody who has lot of mid-quality repro stuff around- sharpened poleaxes, swords and spears.

I'll do it.

And, you can't break fake weapons with fake fighting. The SCA isn't really "real" fighting. It's fencing with indestructible weapons with a minimum armor standard that does not include real armor half the time and a one touch wound/kill ruleset.
I'd have went with the marshal's call. I wouldn't have bitched. But then, winning a "fake" fight fencing match isn't worth crying like a baby about it. In fact, it might have added something new to an otherwise same old same old day.

RoaK wrote:Perhaps a rule in special melee events where if your spear takes 3 solid hits for THE SAME two handed weapon (great sword, bill, pole axe or whatever) the OWNER of the spear calls the spear broken and has to step back from the combat for 30 seconds or so to "get another spear"... same with shields, maybe give them 5 hits or something.

That would put great swords, bills and poleaxes back in their place as spear and shield wall breakers.

Oh yeah....this would be fun!

Cian of Storvik wrote:Once again. I wasn't there to witness it, but what I'm getting here is that, *IF* say the spear was resting on a person's helm or shield WHEN it was struck, then it's totally understandable ruling, yes?
(and maybe that happened and the person just skipped over that detail in retelling the story that the spear was braced the moment it was being chopped at).
-Cian

I think not. The "anvil" rule is meant to address people turtling up defensively and bracing their sword with their shield or even their head. It's not about catching the other guy's weapon in contact and hitting it to achieve a technical disarm....

I've been called down by an opposing knight, demanding to know why I was trying to break his fiberglass spear during a town battle. He placed his spear into our killing cup where I was stationed by the sally-port and held it there to gain some offensive advantage by this posturing. I stuck the spear out of the way and down to the ground a half dozen times with my one hander, but did not wail on it by any means. After the whining, I informed the knight if he stuck it out there again to gain offensive advantage, his noble brother -would damn well break it- and that I had been a pretty nice bloke up until his whining, which was no way for a knight to behave - whining that is. Well, you can imagine that didn't go well, but I have some questions in this vein:

While our weapons may be effectively indestructible, we have seen fiberglass spears fail at what can be called an alarming rate and can break them at will. When you have been nice, to the point of encouraging this cheesy behavior, is it acceptable:

to intentionally break the indestructible weapons?
to intentionally cause shield straps to fail by hooking aggressively?
to wrestle a spear with the intent to bugger the thrusting tip?
I make my weapons and shields with materials and craftsmanship to avoid this, but if others don't is it acceptable to take advantage of their failure to prepare?

It was certainly a period practice, but as others have mentioned, we don't really play at real war. What do you do when someone takes this as an advantage, besides drag his ass to a marshal?

Falcone

seems to me that's breaking the rule about taking advantage of an opponent's safety-consciousness.

Blackbow

Apollonian wrote:I've been called down by an opposing knight, demanding to know why I was trying to break his fiberglass spear during a town battle. He placed his spear into our killing cup where I was stationed by the sally-port and held it there to gain some offensive advantage by this posturing. I stuck the spear out of the way and down to the ground a half dozen times with my one hander, but did not wail on it by any means. After the whining, I informed the knight if he stuck it out there again to gain offensive advantage, his noble brother -would damn well break it- and that I had been a pretty nice bloke up until his whining, which was no way for a knight to behave - whining that is. Well, you can imagine that didn't go well, but I have some questions in this vein:

While our weapons may be effectively indestructible, we have seen fiberglass spears fail at what can be called an alarming rate and can break them at will. When you have been nice, to the point of encouraging this cheesy behavior, is it acceptable:

to intentionally break the indestructible weapons?
to intentionally cause shield straps to fail by hooking aggressively?
to wrestle a spear with the intent to bugger the thrusting tip?
I make my weapons and shields with materials and craftsmanship to avoid this, but if others don't is it acceptable to take advantage of their failure to prepare?

It was certainly a period practice, but as others have mentioned, we don't really play at real war. What do you do when someone takes this as an advantage, besides drag his ass to a marshal?

Falcone

Apollonian wrote:I've been called down by an opposing knight, demanding to know why I was trying to break his fiberglass spear during a town battle. He placed his spear into our killing cup where I was stationed by the sally-port and held it there to gain some offensive advantage by this posturing. I stuck the spear out of the way and down to the ground a half dozen times with my one hander, but did not wail on it by any means. After the whining, I informed the knight if he stuck it out there again to gain offensive advantage, his noble brother -would damn well break it- and that I had been a pretty nice bloke up until his whining, which was no way for a knight to behave - whining that is. Well, you can imagine that didn't go well, but I have some questions in this vein:

While our weapons may be effectively indestructible, we have seen fiberglass spears fail at what can be called an alarming rate and can break them at will. When you have been nice, to the point of encouraging this cheesy behavior, is it acceptable:

to intentionally break the indestructible weapons?
to intentionally cause shield straps to fail by hooking aggressively?
to wrestle a spear with the intent to bugger the thrusting tip?
I make my weapons and shields with materials and craftsmanship to avoid this, but if others don't is it acceptable to take advantage of their failure to prepare?

It was certainly a period practice, but as others have mentioned, we don't really play at real war. What do you do when someone takes this as an advantage, besides drag his ass to a marshal?

Falcone

I think it is almost never appropriate to intentionally go about breaking people's equipment. I've been party to the destruction of more than one shield, but when you hook a shield and there are five people holding it in a conga line, I hardly think you - the hooker - can be blamed if the shield fails.... Even then, breaking the shields was not an intent.

I think it's more sensible to tell the tale, find a good bard to write a song, etc. and let word fame do its work. I'm minded of the refrain from one particular tale.. a vaguely squarish man, in early Tudor garb, who wasn't good enough to be a Tuchuk...

Syr Falcone,
I cannot see intentionally destroying someone elses property as in any way courteous. As you, I will "move" fiberglass spears out of the way, and don't mind when its done to me -- as long as the intent is not to break our friends toys.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I'm willing to make some nice shields and seriously hack them up as tests. Who will loan me the weapons? Or I could make some shields and send them to somebody who has lot of mid-quality repro stuff around- sharpened poleaxes, swords and spears.

I'll have to see if I can dig up the articles but the last time indestructable shields came up I went looking for the kind of of wood used in late medieval shields and all but if I recall correctly 4 out of the 5 were poplar about a 1/2" thick.

Apollonian wrote:...is it acceptable:

to intentionally break the indestructible weapons?
to intentionally cause shield straps to fail by hooking aggressively?
to wrestle a spear with the intent to bugger the thrusting tip?
I make my weapons and shields with materials and craftsmanship to avoid this, but if others don't is it acceptable to take advantage of their failure to prepare?

It was certainly a period practice, but as others have mentioned, we don't really play at real war. What do you do when someone takes this as an advantage, besides drag his ass to a marshal?

Falcone

In my opinion, it's always unacceptable to do those kinds of things intentionally. That's where the "honor" component of our sport should come into play. You could kill your offending opponent and talk to them after the battle, if you were sure you could track them down. Otherwise, you kind of have to get a marshal involved, because breaking weapons or shields in a melee can lead to some serious safety issues.

What if you "buggered" the tip of a spear, and the spearman reflexively pulled back and nailed one of your buddies with the exposed fiberglass? It's a long shot, but you open the way to some ugly stuff if you accept deliberately breaking equipment.

Not to mention the cost - I can't afford to play this game if people are deliberately breaking my stuff. Regular maintenance & replacement take enough time and money as it is.

Dietrich von Stroheim wrote:I don't believe there is any rule in our sport about calling spears dead. Here is the only situation where I think the marshal should make that call:

Hmm. Broken spear and man toes up.

Offhand, I think there is a case where I'd feel comfortable raising an eyebrow if the gent called it "light."

The spear was mushy.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:The spear was mushy.

Twas a push

Apollonian wrote:I've been called down by an opposing knight, demanding to know why I was trying to break his fiberglass spear during a town battle. He placed his spear into our killing cup where I was stationed by the sally-port and held it there to gain some offensive advantage by this posturing. I stuck the spear out of the way and down to the ground a half dozen times with my one hander, but did not wail on it by any means. After the whining, I informed the knight if he stuck it out there again to gain offensive advantage, his noble brother -would damn well break it- and that I had been a pretty nice bloke up until his whining, which was no way for a knight to behave - whining that is. Well, you can imagine that didn't go well, but I have some questions in this vein:

While our weapons may be effectively indestructible, we have seen fiberglass spears fail at what can be called an alarming rate and can break them at will. When you have been nice, to the point of encouraging this cheesy behavior, is it acceptable:

to intentionally break the indestructible weapons?
to intentionally cause shield straps to fail by hooking aggressively?
to wrestle a spear with the intent to bugger the thrusting tip?
I make my weapons and shields with materials and craftsmanship to avoid this, but if others don't is it acceptable to take advantage of their failure to prepare?

It was certainly a period practice, but as others have mentioned, we don't really play at real war. What do you do when someone takes this as an advantage, besides drag his ass to a marshal?

Falcone

Snatch it from him? Sure, no problem
Trap it so he can't move it without breaking it himself? .. ehhh, maybe... he'd have to be a real prick for me to consider it legit
Hit it to try to snap it? No way.

Leo Medii wrote:

RoaK wrote:Perhaps a rule in special melee events where if your spear takes 3 solid hits for THE SAME two handed weapon (great sword, bill, pole axe or whatever) the OWNER of the spear calls the spear broken and has to step back from the combat for 30 seconds or so to "get another spear"... same with shields, maybe give them 5 hits or something.

That would put great swords, bills and poleaxes back in their place as spear and shield wall breakers.

Oh yeah....this would be fun!

Let me get this straight: You would call the Spearman Dead if someone hit his spear three times in a row? If i hit a Shield Five times the Bearer is Dead?

Realize that this is basically what you are saying.

Violen, I believe the idea was to call the SPEAR or SHIELD "dead", not the owner. They might not live long after, but they'd not be automatically defated.

If someone cannot fight for 30 seconds

They might as well walk to the res point. I know at Lilies thats about how long it takes to trot over there and back.


See my reasoning?

Destroying weapons = dead.


Not getting to fight for 30 seconds in the sca? Its cause your dead or waiting to fight.

There really isnt a difference!

I remember a thread somewhere talking about making destructable shields from think layer cardboard. I think that would be alot of fun to try.

Balin

If my spear were broken or my shield riven, I like to think I'd be moving to a secondary weapon or a defensive position and concentrating on staying alive and supporting my fellows.

If you've never tried it, fighting with just a single (single-handed) sword in a big war is fun! I'm not likely to give up just because my shield is out of the game. As long as every secnario were not played this way, only folks with a similar mindset need play with these rules.

Lorccan wrote:If you've never tried it, fighting with just a single (single-handed) sword in a big war is fun!

I saw a fleet-footed knight enter one of those 'capture the flag' battles at Pennsic armed only with a dagger. It was actually a nominal weapon because his mission was more to snag flags than to fight, but I saw him defend himself with great spirit when hemmed in.

And once, a friend of mine wielding a spear in a bridge battle got hit in the arm, drew his backup short sword, crouched for a moment behind his shieldman; then said "What the hell, you can't live forever!" and strode toward the opposing shield line. He ALMOST got close enough to strike before he was gigged.

Lorccan wrote:I think that both shields and spears would have to be destructible, IF we wanted to be more realistic. Down that road lies madness, I'll take the game as we play it.

I have to agree -- even speaking as a guy who uses a greatsword.

Lorccan wrote:If you've never tried it, fighting with just a single (single-handed) sword in a big war is fun!

True! Perhaps the most "kills" I've scored in a shieldwall was when I was using a single sword, left-handed. Maybe it was a freak occurrence, but on that particular day it just seemed to allow me to slip in unexpected shots.