The Armour Archive

InsaneIrish wrote:Which part, the small list field or that thrusting with a 6ft greatsword is not the most effective use of such a weapon?

Any of it. Why isn't thrusting a good use of a two handed 6 foot weapon and what does it have to do with the size of the list field?

It was a <i>tiny</i> list field. Like, the smallest I've ever seen. MAYBE 10 feet to a side. MAYBE. The Calontiri fight indoors all winter long, and all the list fields shrink down to what I have taken to call, the Calontir Postage Stamp.

It sucks if you're a polearm fighter!

i think every kingdom has its own oddities (well, except us of course)

i dont fight with vambraces or anything on my forearms, never have. never been injured either.

i target necks all the time. you can roll a helm out of the way but not your neck. there is nothing in your neck that can be hurt from a flat snap. its all muscle after all.

i hit collarbones too. they are no more fragile than ribs for the most part. never injured anyones neck or collarbone.

plastic shields are goofy looking and they dont stop a powerful flat snap so i dont get why folks would use them.

unpadded polearms are silly looking and dont resemble medieval weapons. just get yourself a two handed sword, at least that way there isnt a problem with not being able to tell if you hafted someone.

modern footware that isnt covered is plain wrong and only ugly kids wear them. only the ugly kids....

buttspikes on greatswords are goofy. i think they are just used for easy kills and dont see how they would ever be a fight ender. yucky!

cutting off your own leg or arm is rude. you took mine, now lets fight!

all non woodgrain spears are ugly and make people laugh at you from behind. buy woodgrain fiberglass spears today!!

i have more pearls of wisdom and opinion. they are only worth what you paid for them.

regards
logan

Leo Medii wrote:People must hate fighting me.

I do this. Hell, I hit people's arms out of the air from the inside while they try wrap shots. If they close to wrap, I take out the bicep as they throw it..
Hell, it's combat! I've been known to punch block a blow with the sword right behind it taking the inside of the arm. I chop off arms a lot....if it's there, I chop it right off. I never did understand not hitting it as we are simulating combat.

Westie fighter here.

You sound like a very honest opponent. If I had the opportunity I would love to fight you. No BS just a good honest fight. I get so few of those.

I kinda dig grungy dirty honest fighting. So many get weird when you want to close, and get it stuck in. Without malice or anger. A good fight like that can leave you feeling clean.

-Ivan

dukelogan wrote:i think every kingdom has its own oddities (well, except us of course)

i dont fight with vambraces or anything on my forearms, never have. never been injured either.

regards
logan

When I started I didn't use forearm protection either. I put some on after I broke other peoples arms. After that I suggested that others also wear some form of rigid protection on their forearms. After I put on vambraces I have taken shots that I am pretty sure could have broken my arm and that would have sucked. Just my 2 cents.

of the two confirmed forearm breaks ive done to others one wore a leather vambrace and the other had a steel (16ga im guessing) vambrace with thin padding. both situations involved one handed weapons.

regards
logan

Johno wrote:

dukelogan wrote:i think every kingdom has its own oddities (well, except us of course)

i dont fight with vambraces or anything on my forearms, never have. never been injured either.

regards
logan

When I started I didn't use forearm protection either. I put some on after I broke other peoples arms. After that I suggested that others also wear some form of rigid protection on their forearms. After I put on vambraces I have taken shots that I am pretty sure could have broken my arm and that would have sucked. Just my 2 cents.

I got my unarmoured right forearm broke twice. (ulna) Both times by the same guy. One of those times he was on my side. (Random Wronghand)
This was eons ago.

I got some x-rays this year and the tech wanted to know when the car accident was.

I wear really solid vambraces now.

wilmot wrote:Hi,
This is how I look at the various kingdoms, they all have there own set of stupid rules, conventions, biases, etc. As someone who started in the West and moved to the East I can address this;
Arm shots; What I was always told was "Don't armhunt" that is don't seek out the arm to hit and since most Westerners used smallish shields there were other things to hit which don't involve standing there while the other fighter switches arms, etc. I had the attitude of "If you get it in the way it will get hit"
Thrusting tips; They are now used in the West but alot of the older fighters who came up in the 1970's and 1980's were brought up with "Only dorks in other kingdoms use them" attitude
Shield Size; There were (and still are) a number of people out there that feel if you are using anything over 24"X24" then you are cheating.

Ronald

I would agree with Duke Ronald. Setting up deilberate 'arm chops' is a waste of time in my opinon, since its far more efficient use of your energy to set up killing blows rather than wounding ones. I'll hit somebody in their arm if they're leaving it out there or as a reminder in practice but it usually doesn't register as a primary target.

For a long time in Artemisia there was the sentiment that 'you didn't need a thrusting tip if you were good enough with the edges'. I've always justified my use of thrusting tip since I'm not good enough with the edges yet to give them up.

Konrad wrote:

wilmot wrote:Hi,
This is how I look at the various kingdoms, they all have there own set of stupid rules, conventions, biases, etc. As someone who started in the West and moved to the East I can address this;
Arm shots; What I was always told was "Don't armhunt" that is don't seek out the arm to hit and since most Westerners used smallish shields there were other things to hit which don't involve standing there while the other fighter switches arms, etc. I had the attitude of "If you get it in the way it will get hit"
Thrusting tips; They are now used in the West but alot of the older fighters who came up in the 1970's and 1980's were brought up with "Only dorks in other kingdoms use them" attitude
Shield Size; There were (and still are) a number of people out there that feel if you are using anything over 24"X24" then you are cheating.

Ronald

I would agree with Duke Ronald. Setting up deilberate 'arm chops' is a waste of time in my opinon, since its far more efficient use of your energy to set up killing blows rather than wounding ones. I'll hit somebody in their arm if they're leaving it out there or as a reminder in practice but it usually doesn't register as a primary target.

For a long time in Artemisia there was the sentiment that 'you didn't need a thrusting tip if you were good enough with the edges'. I've always justified my use of thrusting tip since I'm not good enough with the edges yet to give them up.

I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

dukelogan wrote:
all non woodgrain spears are ugly and make people laugh at you from behind. buy woodgrain fiberglass spears today!!

Wink wink, nudge nudge, hint hint, say no more...


As for unarmored forearms: One enters the field armed and armored meeting three points:

1: Armored to Society Standards
2: Armored to Kingdom standards
3: Armored to ones own standards

No two people are built the same, and what is one person's bruise is another's broken bone.

I do not hunt my opponent's arm as a courtesy, which I can confirm is very much a part of Western fighting culture. I understand that it does happen, and just as I will use thrusting tips against those who employ them so will I hunt the arms of those who seek mine. I otherwise consider striking my opponent's arm an undesirable outcome.

Big shields and thrusting tips are considered lesser forms in the school of fighting I adhere most closely to.

Regards,

Avery

I agree.
What was the line from starship trooper : your enemy cant push the button if their hand is pinned to a wall (incapacitated)

Thor.

Leo Medii wrote:

Konrad wrote:

wilmot wrote:Hi,
This is how I look at the various kingdoms, they all have there own set of stupid rules, conventions, biases, etc. As someone who started in the West and moved to the East I can address this;
Arm shots; What I was always told was "Don't armhunt" that is don't seek out the arm to hit and since most Westerners used smallish shields there were other things to hit which don't involve standing there while the other fighter switches arms, etc. I had the attitude of "If you get it in the way it will get hit"
Thrusting tips; They are now used in the West but alot of the older fighters who came up in the 1970's and 1980's were brought up with "Only dorks in other kingdoms use them" attitude
Shield Size; There were (and still are) a number of people out there that feel if you are using anything over 24"X24" then you are cheating.

Ronald

I would agree with Duke Ronald. Setting up deilberate 'arm chops' is a waste of time in my opinon, since its far more efficient use of your energy to set up killing blows rather than wounding ones. I'll hit somebody in their arm if they're leaving it out there or as a reminder in practice but it usually doesn't register as a primary target.

For a long time in Artemisia there was the sentiment that 'you didn't need a thrusting tip if you were good enough with the edges'. I've always justified my use of thrusting tip since I'm not good enough with the edges yet to give them up.

I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

Leo Medii wrote:
I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

Like Sergeant Barnes and Platoon said: 'There's the way things ought to be and there's the way things is.'

It has nothing at all to do with historical examples. It's just another case of somebody 'important' making a comment to somebody else that gets passed around and suddenly become holy writ and part of the group culture. Nobody knows how or why it got that way but that's how it was.


We had problem a while back with somebody going around telling folks that they would never get knighted in Artemisia unless they fought sword and shield. We had people freaking out all over the place and it took a long time to get people to believe that they could actually get knighted for weapon styles other than sword and shield.

Just a few examples of how the flapping of butterfly wings in China have ruined our lives.

That "can't get knighted unless you fight sword and shield" has been floating around the midrealm too. A lot of folks believe it. Some of them are Knights too.

Leo Medii wrote:That "can't get knighted unless you fight sword and shield" has been floating around the midrealm too. A lot of folks believe it. Some of them are Knights too.

So true, so true. This has been one of the reasons why we hold a 'Chivalry Workshop' each year at our largest Kingdom event (Uprising in June). Basically, its an hour or so long open forum which lets people ask questions of the assembled kights to help dispel myths such as these. It's a very helpful thing.

Leo Medii wrote:I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

Yes, but in the historic manuals (especially the unarmored sections), a blow to the arm is a fight ender. In our game, it merely wounds. As someone else stated, I'll go for the quick fight ender, rather than the wound.

Sir Robert of Woodsende
West

IvanIS wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:People must hate fighting me.

I do this. Hell, I hit people's arms out of the air from the inside while they try wrap shots. If they close to wrap, I take out the bicep as they throw it..
Hell, it's combat! I've been known to punch block a blow with the sword right behind it taking the inside of the arm. I chop off arms a lot....if it's there, I chop it right off. I never did understand not hitting it as we are simulating combat.

Westie fighter here.

You sound like a very honest opponent. If I had the opportunity I would love to fight you. No BS just a good honest fight. I get so few of those.

I kinda dig grungy dirty honest fighting. So many get weird when you want to close, and get it stuck in. Without malice or anger. A good fight like that can leave you feeling clean.

-Ivan

Someday, I wish we could go a pass. I feel exactly the way you do about the whole deal. I once had this fight with this Nissan guy where we "zoned" and it was flowing, and intense, and totally rocking, and then we stopped dead and looked at each other smiling, looking at where we were with our hands grabbing each others wrists holding daggers off our faces and we both said "wow, I hope the marshals aren't watching". He was one of the few people who put me into that mindset of a good clean down and out fight.
So few of those these days........

Woodsende wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

Yes, but in the historic manuals (especially the unarmored sections), a blow to the arm is a fight ender. In our game, it merely wounds. As someone else stated, I'll go for the quick fight ender, rather than the wound.

Sir Robert of Woodsende
West

Well met Sir Robert, I agree in some aspects, but I am an odd bird in the terms of an SCA fighter. I don't look at a bout as an SCA fight, I look at it as a fight. Sure it means I'm not the best SCA fighter, but I am OK with that as a combat "student". I love to talk mechanics, technique and methodology of combat.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of thrusting if you go for the quick fight enders?

Leo Medii wrote:Someday, I wish we could go a pass. I feel exactly the way you do about the whole deal. I once had this fight with this Nissan guy where we "zoned" and it was flowing, and intense, and totally rocking, and then we stopped dead and looked at each other smiling, looking at where we were with our hands grabbing each others wrists holding daggers off our faces and we both said "wow, I hope the marshals aren't watching". He was one of the few people who put me into that mindset of a good clean down and out fight.
So few of those these days........

That story made my night, Leo. Thank you.

Baron Alejandro wrote:It was a <i>tiny</i> list field. Like, the smallest I've ever seen. MAYBE 10 feet to a side. MAYBE. The Calontiri fight indoors all winter long, and all the list fields shrink down to what I have taken to call, the Calontir Postage Stamp.

It sucks if you're a polearm fighter!

My good Baron, when fighting a polearm in the postage stamp you must merely send everything first class. Anything else would be without love. Come out here in April and we'll get a good old dose of infighting going on, any weapon you like.

Leo Medii wrote:Well met Sir Robert, I agree in some aspects, but I am an odd bird in the terms of an SCA fighter. I don't look at a bout as an SCA fight, I look at it as a fight. Sure it means I'm not the best SCA fighter, but I am OK with that as a combat "student". I love to talk mechanics, technique and methodology of combat.

Leo, one thing to consider is that the period manuals demonstrating strikes to the arm are also systems where closing means coming to grips with the enemy. The arm becomes a closer target and the better to aim for.

SCA combat doesn't have that range problem...you can go stand in the other guy's boots without worrying about the fight going to the ground.

That might account for some of the differences, above and beyond the arm being simply a wound.

I once heard someone very eloquently write about the aesthetics of the art.

I think this has much to do with these sentiments. It is also why Western tradition kingdoms typically do not crowd opponents on their knees. In An-Tir we have a very strict tradition about not breaking the plane of your opponents knees with your feet while they are legged. On a "pass" where you are moving deep past a legged opponent you get one shot then must back out and reset.

When folks from out here travel east and are introduced to the up close and personal treatment of legged fighters you can watch thier eyes get big from a long way away...

The point really is, none of this is "wrong" or "right" it just "is".

had the old "face thrust with a crotch" happen to em at pennsic a few years ago.. clearly my eyes bulged because the guy i was fighting stopped and asked where i was from, and we chatted, nice guy, not a bad crotch either, if that's what your into hahah!

Leo Medii wrote:

Woodsende wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

Yes, but in the historic manuals (especially the unarmored sections), a blow to the arm is a fight ender. In our game, it merely wounds. As someone else stated, I'll go for the quick fight ender, rather than the wound.

Sir Robert of Woodsende
West

Well met Sir Robert, I agree in some aspects, but I am an odd bird in the terms of an SCA fighter. I don't look at a bout as an SCA fight, I look at it as a fight. Sure it means I'm not the best SCA fighter, but I am OK with that as a combat "student". I love to talk mechanics, technique and methodology of combat.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of thrusting if you go for the quick fight enders?

Have you ever thought of fighting with us Tuchux?

same pennsic, tuchux tourney... AWESOME!

Leo Medii wrote:

Woodsende wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:I find this fascinating as it is the direct opposite of almost every continental example of swordplay in the historical period.

Yes, but in the historic manuals (especially the unarmored sections), a blow to the arm is a fight ender. In our game, it merely wounds. As someone else stated, I'll go for the quick fight ender, rather than the wound.

Sir Robert of Woodsende
West

Well met Sir Robert, I agree in some aspects, but I am an odd bird in the terms of an SCA fighter. I don't look at a bout as an SCA fight, I look at it as a fight. Sure it means I'm not the best SCA fighter, but I am OK with that as a combat "student". I love to talk mechanics, technique and methodology of combat.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of thrusting if you go for the quick fight enders?

I too (like Ivan) like a pretty "aggressive" fight. having studied WMA for number of years as well as SCA, I have no problems with grappling, etc.

As far as thrusts, they can be the ultimate quick fight ender. A quick side-step as they close with a thrust to the face is one I use a fair amount.


Sir Robert of Woodsende
West

IvanIS wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:People must hate fighting me.

I do this. Hell, I hit people's arms out of the air from the inside while they try wrap shots. If they close to wrap, I take out the bicep as they throw it..
Hell, it's combat! I've been known to punch block a blow with the sword right behind it taking the inside of the arm. I chop off arms a lot....if it's there, I chop it right off. I never did understand not hitting it as we are simulating combat.

Westie fighter here.

You sound like a very honest opponent. If I had the opportunity I would love to fight you. No BS just a good honest fight. I get so few of those.

I kinda dig grungy dirty honest fighting. So many get weird when you want to close, and get it stuck in. Without malice or anger. A good fight like that can leave you feeling clean.

-Ivan

I have been trying to get into that mind set a lot lately as well.
Coming from the middle where you get a good look at your opponents crotch if you get legged I see where taking an arm or even stabbing a person in the armpit can work wonders.

Maybe its from fighting guys so much better than I, but if I see a chance to land a shot I TAKE IT. I don't get much but that is part of the game.

Is anywhere else in the SCA as weird as the West Kingdom?

No.

So you say that like being weird is a bad thing?

I just answered the main topic question is all.

Tyr Palenske wrote:My good Baron, when fighting a polearm in the postage stamp you must merely send everything first class. Anything else would be without love. Come out here in April and we'll get a good old dose of infighting going on, any weapon you like.

Love it!

Regna, que alia regna?

Alvar, I'm a poor brain dead norseman-say what?

Kingdoms, what other kingdoms?

Leo Medii wrote:That "can't get knighted unless you fight sword and shield" has been floating around the midrealm too. A lot of folks believe it. Some of them are Knights too.

I hear that ALOT in Ansteorra.