The Armour Archive

I have seen pics somewhere of a rattan
weapon, that is about 4 feet long, with the
handle (basquet) at center. It seem like
a one hand weapon that can hit with the two
end of it and can also be used as a shield.

Any one know about this weapon? What's it's name? How is it used? Is it a legal weapon in the East?

Thanks for your help!

MIK

Sounds like a Madu, an item which is an offense against god and only those who are willing to risk their immortal souls would use such a weapon.

They are legal, frequently seen, and a pain in the butt for most opponents. Those I've seen who are good with them tend to be very mobile and aggressive, and practice on being able to stab with either end. Like any other weapon, they take practice, and have both good and weak points.

AElfraed Hawkmoon

[This message has been edited by AElfraed Hawkmoon (edited 01-26-2001).]

That's what's commonly called a madu; a center-gripped weapon with thrusting points at both ends, and no striking surfaces along the shaft. The original weapon is supposed to be two (ibex?) horns joined by a grip at the middle. There's a lot of doubt as to whether a weapon made of horn would have had any effect on chainmaile or plate armour, but they can be kinda fun to play with regardless.

- Kyle

Damn, I went looking for the research I posted on madus and it seems to have disappeared in our transfer to .org. Oh well, I'll do a full writeup at some point.

Here's a couple historical points (no pun intended) about the weapon you're talking about:

1) The madu is a weapon from India which consists of a central buckler with two horns projecting up and down from the grip. They were never common weapons, being mostly used by Bhils and only occasionally by the Moghuls.

2) They were usually made from hide and antlers, but there are existing examples made entirely from steel. Most of the horn examples include steel thrusting tips.

3) The SCA "madu" you describe is really not a madu. It is too long and lacks the central buckler. What it actually most resembles is another weapon from the same time period called a "Sainte". This consisted of a steel rod with points on one or both ends and a knuckle-guard about two thirds of the way up the shaft.

4) None of these weapons were commonly used in Europe, but there is exactly one example in the royal armory in spain dating from the moorish occupation. It is labelled "Adarga" ("Shield").

LOL yepp it sounds like a madu, whoever makes them better stop they are evil!

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Long Live the Landsknechte,
Harold the Bear

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 01-26-2001).]

I've seen an illustration of an a weapon called an "Adarga."

It has a short, double ended, spear mounted through a small buckler, with a punch-style blade extending out perpendicular to the spear and buckler. Was described as a "Moorish parry weapon."

The illustration was in the Palladium Compendium of Weapons and Armor, so it's to be taken with a grain of salt.

Would a weapon such as an Adarga as I described be as evil as a madu?

Thanks to all...

I might have benn wrong on the length of the
piece. Maybe it was shorter then 4 feets.

So you can only stab with this weapond?
No cutting blade??? Can someone direct me
to pictures of it on the net? (I have
lost the link where I once saw it).
Also is it usually used
-alone ?
-along with a shield ?
-alond with a sword ?

MIK

Would a weapon such as an Adarga as I described be as evil as a madu?

It would be pretty much exactly as evil as a madu. Palladium probably got the weapon from Lord Egerton's "Indian and Oriental armour" which is where the whole idea of madus being taken to spain by moorish mercenaries got started.

It may be possible that this happened, but it's also possible that it is an independent development. Pretty much everyone invented parrying shields, long narrow shields held in the left hand. It's not much of a stretch for two different cultures to get the idea of putting points on the ends.

So you can only stab with this weapon?

It is primarily a stabbing weapon, but one could presumably slash with the tip. It's not a cutting weapon.

<B>Also is it usually used
-alone ?
-along with a shield ?
-alond with a sword ?</B>

It was used both as a primary weapon and as an offhand parrying weapon.

Here's a picture of a horn madu
http://www.era.anthropology.ac.uk/Era_Resources/Era/Pitt_Rivers/shieweap/shcurinf/18big.html

I would not recommend using it unless you are doing an Indian persona.

mik,
Some of the existing examples are two swords mounted to a central buckler/handle.

How to use it will depend on personna and whicht ype you're supposed to be representing.

If you have a European personna or any personna other than Indian or Afghani (maybe Persian is okay) you have no business using this thing at all.

In India, as I understand, there was a monastic order who swore off swords -- they used the horn version -- hence thrust only.

In ither cases it was used by Swordsmen instead of a shield.
...

Alot of it is cultural.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Actually if I remember correctly there is a Chinese short spear with a spear head on both ends....
I am not sure of the name but I will look at my refrences and find it tonight.

At least I call it my Chinese short spear when I am using mine

I happen to like the madu and even though it probably would have been useless in period, it can be fun to play with, kinda like florentine.

Found it:

Shang Taou Chi (double headed spear)
Dates back to 1300's in this book but I have seen it documented earlier than that.
ranged in length from 4 to 6 ft
Not a primary source though so take it with a grain of salt.

------------------
"Chivalry, Courtesy, and Honour are nothing if they are only words"

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 01-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 01-29-2001).]

No way would a Persian use one. No evidence of any kind. and from what I've read, this weapon doesn't show up till the late 1500s. Here in Meridies you can't put a shield on a madu it can only be a basket hilted weapon so he might have seen it here.

LR of E -
Please preface that with it didnt show up in EUROPE until 1500...
although I think Vitus posted some manuscript photos that showeda madu-like weapon being used in a tourney in an earlier period than that.
Not 100% sure about that though

LR of E,
How do you define a Persian?

Timur il Lenk invaded India at one point.
Babur, a descendant of Timur, became the originator of the Moghul dynasty.
Both may be defined as Mongol (but not to their faces ), Turk, or Persian.
The Timurid culture, I really don't see how to broadly define except as Persian,
and finds from "Transoxania" (the heart of Timur's empire) are often labeled as Persian.

Now, mind you, the earliest reference for a Madu-type thing I've seen was posted here from a mid-sixteenth century manuscript (within SCA period).
So, timewise, :shrug:, but culturaly -- unless you provide specific info on why not, I see it as quite plausible that an "Indianised" Persian may adopt it.

...and why can't you put a shield on it?
(or I suppose I should ask -- what is meant by shield?)
It should be a small buckler.


------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 01-29-2001).]

Sorry Norman, in the class I teach on Middle Eastern arms and armor for SCA combat, I imply Persian as modern day Iran/Iraq and the surrounding areas. I personally feel that a "Persian" travelling to India might bring back a madu, but to use it, no. I just don't think that it is a valuable weapon. The horns would get severed by the first sword cut and that's if the weapon didn't get caught up in all the other people around you. Which is what I have seen them do in SCA combat. And we can't pu a shield on them because offensive shields are not allowed in Meridies.
Sarnac- I guess I missed the thread you wrote about, but I can't find any reference that this weapon appears anywhere before the late 1500's. If you have a resource or know someone who has I would love to see it.

LR of E said
Sorry Norman, in the class I teach on Middle Eastern arms and armor for SCA combat, I imply Persian as modern day Iran/Iraq and the surrounding areas.

Okay -- that's Middle Eastern - but it's only a tip of the Persian iceberg (I tend to dwell on the areas further East and North -- Caucas, Transoxania ...but even Ilkhanid Persia, if I am not misremembering, goes further East than modern Iran).
...is Iraq Persian or more Arabic realy??

Certainly after Babur (died 1530), and likely earlier, India (or large parts thereof) is Persianised ...and conversely Indian influences in the areas adjacent would not stretch my creduility (did I use that word right?) too much.

I personally feel that a "Persian" travelling to India might bring back a madu, but to use it, no. I just don't think that it is a valuable weapon. The horns would get severed by the first sword cut and that's if the weapon didn't get caught up in all the other people around you.

Horns ?? That's only one type -- those used by the religious orders.
Another type consisted of two swords.
As for getting caught on your own people -- I put it to you that "it is a poor craftsman that blames his tools".
...sides -- what about all the one on one tourneys we hold?

And we can't put a shield on them because offensive shields are not allowed in Meridies.

I expect that rule was intended for thrusting bucklers in Scots style.
How do they define "shield" as opposed to "basket"?
Let's say a ten inch Indian style buckler -- couldn't everyone just say it was a basket?

Sarnac- I guess I missed the thread you wrote about, but I can't find any reference that this weapon appears anywhere before the late 1500's. If you have a resource or know someone who has I would love to see it.

That thread was from someone who posted a mid sixteenth century manuscript illustration of what seems to be a small buckler with two short spears extending out (ie: what we're talking about as one version of a Madu). If I am not mistaken, the person holding it was wearing armour.
...yes - that is in the second half of the 1500's as you say -- and that puts it as both part of SCA period - and during the Moghul dynasty.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Let me repeat myself. There is a historical weapon identical in appearance to an SCA "madu" which is called a sainte. It consists of a solid steel rod with spearpoints on each end and a knuckle guard to protect the end.

Please, let's lose the "It's just horn" argument. Does anyone here really doubt that a solid steel spear could penetrate mail?

I agree that it should be limited to people with appropriate personas, but one can't deny that it's a viable weapon.

Gentles,

I'd like to see real evidence that:

1. The madhu was solid steel (even infrequently).

2. That the weapon was used by anyone but the monks it is atributed to.

3. That in any form it was a slashing weapon.

4. Any source of information on the "sainte".

Given the documented information I have now, seeing madhus on the field or in tourney is one teency step above facing a knight using Klingon weapons. If people want to do that, fine, but lets keep them off the lists.




------------------
Alfgeirr Skjöldolfson

Well I guess I just define Persia differently from you Norman. Just one of the things that makes us all different.
I have only heard of horns being used, some ceremonial types having silver tips with a lot of decoration. Now about this same time period the Indians had a thing called a fencing bar that was a solid rod of steel with what we would call a basket on it. Based on the description it would appear to be a defensive weapon used to block and possibly to smash into your opponent as well.
I don't quite follow the poor craftsman quote...
I don't quite know how to describe this Kingdoms differences between basket and shield other than what is obvious, but If it has a shield on it it will be considered illegal.
Just because something is period doesn't mean its period for you. All I was trying to do was to help an obviously new fighter to go down the right path. I'm so tired of Vikings with madus and other sever inconsistancies.

LR of E,
I'm so tired of Vikings with madus and other sever inconsistancies.

Fully agreed.
...as well as Vikings with "heater" shields,
...or anyone with Hockey armour

The "Madu" is by far not the only offender -- but for some reason it really gets picked for "righteous anger".
...and anyhow, your reply seemed to be to my advice about specifically -- Tailoring the use to the personna. If I took that wrong, my apologies.

Well I guess I just define Persia differently from you Norman. Just one of the things that makes us all different.

I'm curious then how do you refer to the Persian culture areas like the more Eastern parts of the Ilkhanid kingdom, the Caucas, Transoxania ??

As a side note --
the Biblical book of Esther:
"...king Ahashverosh ruled from Hodu to Cush"
Cush is Africa, Hodu is India
...similarly, the stories in "A Thousand and One Nights" if I am not misremembering often have an Indian origin.

Now about this same time period the Indians had a thing called a fencing bar that was a solid rod of steel with what we would call a basket on it. Based on the description it would appear to be a defensive weapon used to block and possibly to smash into your opponent as well.

That would seem to fit the description for an SCA Madu as well then.

I don't quite follow the poor craftsman quote...
You said that it was used badly in the SCA (hurting your own fellow fighters) and assumed that this would happen in period as well.
My point was that the inability in use is far more likely due to SCA fighters not knowing how to use it then to anything inherent in the weapon itself.

I don't quite know how to describe this Kingdoms differences between basket and shield other than what is obvious, but If it has a shield on it it will be considered illegal.
Okay -- so can you classify a deep-dished 10" round steel or leather plate as a Basket? or is it necessarily a shield?


------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 01-31-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alfgeirr Skjöldolfson:
<B>Gentles,

I'd like to see real evidence that:

1. The madhu was solid steel (even infrequently).

2. That the weapon was used by anyone but the monks it is atributed to.

3. That in any form it was a slashing weapon.

4. Any source of information on the "sainte".

Given the documented information I have now, seeing madhus on the field or in tourney is one teency step above facing a knight using Klingon weapons. If people want to do that, fine, but lets keep them off the lists.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um...
I think if you read Normans posts you will see that he has stated several points that argue directly against what you are saying here.

Also the Chinese short spear I mentioned earlier is a weapon I have seen documented several times to early as 1200's to early 1300's as I stated in my earlier post.
When I find my source within this god awful pile of stuff on my desk I will list it.

But please dont discount a weapon that is a viable alternative just because you dont like it.
To make a statement like seems to be saying that your version of history is correct and you dont care what examples others have that contridict what you believe.

I for one am enthralled by this whole topic as I am learning new things every time I check this thread.
Norman is a fountain of info on that period and geographical area and I for one would love to hear more.

I've seen evidence, altho I can't for the life of me remember where, of this type of weapon in late period tournaments. I don't often use one, but I also refuse to feel bad about using one when I feel like it.

------------------
Do not go gentle into that good night - Dylan Thomas

http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

Just perused thru the only book I have of Indian miniatures. It had several paintings of men in armor and I couldn't find one madu. Not that this is by any means the only source, its just the only one I have.

Madus are by far not the only offenders its just the one that bugs me the most after hockey gloves. Oh and you forgot Scots with Katanas

In what I have read I thought the Ilkhanids were more Mongolian than Persian, The Caucas' to be East European with a Heavy Persian influence and OK I'll give ya Transoxania only because I've read so little about it.

Going thru Stone's book I found the Saintie that was spoken of earlier and that appears to be more of the Fencing Bar I read of. It only had one bar protecting the front of the hand whereas the madu had an entire shield.

Thank you for claryfing for craftsman quote.

Here in Meridies the only hand protection you can put on a stick of rattan and still call the weapon a madu is the generic sword basket hilt either of the spun variety or the open bar type. Even the deep dished 10" basket hilt would be considered a shield. At least that's how I and my local marshal interpret the rule.

Sarnac --
credit on the Madu (or whatever you want to call it) information must go to Hob (I believe it was he who posted the period illustration and related info). I know nothing of weapons -- strictly armour.

LR of E
In what I have read I thought the Ilkhanids were more Mongolian than Persian,

Well now, are you saying that in the 14th cent there is no Persia?
As I understood, the Ilkhanid empire is Persia after the Mongol conquest.

The Caucas' to be East European with a Heavy Persian influence

The only reason I can see for making that statement is that the Russian Empire took over the Caucas. Other than that?

and OK I'll give ya Transoxania only because I've read so little about it.


I am curious then -- by what criteria do you define Persia and Persian?
And I still don't understand why Iraq gets identified as Persian - I always thought it was Arabic.

Here in Meridies the only hand protection you can put on a stick of rattan and still call the weapon a madu is the generic sword basket hilt either of the spun variety or the open bar type. Even the deep dished 10" basket hilt would be considered a shield. At least that's how I and my local marshal interpret the rule.
That's terrible to hear.
I hope you will convince him otherwise.
(I am basically horrified that if you want to make your gear just a little more period - it becomes disqualified -- I'm not thinking Madu - I am actually thinking of a sword design where the SCA-basket-hilt is made to look like a small buckler)

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

I saw a Meriden fighter at War create an ingenious way to get around this rule....

He made a buckler that had a handle that fit over the shaft of the madu but didnt attach to it. I know thats a reach but it fit the letter of the rule by not actually attching to the madu.

As far as what is Persia and what is not, I am basing my opinion on maps. the several I just went thru delineate Persia from Transoxiana. Why did they do I don't know, but I'll try to find out.

I allways assumed the people from the caucas region to be more Anglesized than Arabic. But I guess were splitting a fine hair. To me it's just the same as if you call the guys that work for me Mexicans when in fact they are from Guatamala. To you and I they look the same and speak the same language but don't call them Mexicans it's almost an insult.

Maybe in your kingdom (East, right?) the weapon you want to make would pass. Here it won't. Things change very slowly here in the South.

We haven't heard from MIK since his original question. I guess we scared him.

I just found in the back of the Marshalls Handbook that a Madu is allowed a buckler of up to 12" diameter. I guess in talking to other marshalls they hate them as much as anybody else and were trying to make ineffecient to use the weapon. I didn't have a copy of the book till tonite so on that account I was wrong. But I have to wonder why the two people I've seen use a madu, one Viking and one English?man, that they would opt for basket hilts instead of shield?

On another note this whole thread started me thinking on when the Danish Great Axe ( for lack of another more descriptive name ) quit becoming common in warfare. Any ideas?

In SCA combat??
I would think because of it's length restrictions. Why would you limit yourself to a 52" weapon when you could use a 7 1/2 ft polearm and get the same effect?

I still do use one in the smaller melee's and the woods battle at war.
Its a fun weapon.

In Period combat....
no idea.

I have often thought of (aka daydream while at work) using a 3 to 4 foot axe in a 2 weapon style. I imagine that it would function in methods similar to madu, especially if a thrusting tip added. Any thoughts/revulsions?

As for Danish axe question: this is purely speculation on my part. Could the use of such axes have been phased out with the increase in use of horses and projectiles?

Re What is Persia?

I think I am the only one who'se interested in this tangent I started.
If this is the case -- I apologise.

I spose I should start a new thread ...but then we'd have to make all those points all over again. (and LR of E may just decide not to show)

LR of E
As far as what is Persia and what is not, I am basing my opinion on maps.

Okay.
What period's maps?
and how does that include Iraq?

the several I just went thru delineate Persia from Transoxiana. Why did they do I don't know, but I'll try to find out.

As I understood it, Transoxania is a specific regional definition, Persia is a country.

I allways assumed the people from the caucas region to be more Anglesized than Arabic.

Anglesized?
Aside from the leader of the Chechen rebels deciding he's the modern day William Wallace (after really getting into Braveheart),
what English influence has there ever been in the Caucas?
As for Arabic -- I always understood the Persian culture to be substantially different from the Arab. There is certainly cross-fertilization, but even today Iranians (at least those who are not "fundamentalist") often look to the completely non-Arabicised past -- including holidays, heroes, etc.
Thus my continued surprise at you classing Iraq with Persia (not knowing too much about it, I'd often understood Iraq to be Arabic).

But I guess were splitting a fine hair. To me it's just the same as if you call the guys that work for me Mexicans when in fact they are from Guatamala. To you and I they look the same and speak the same language but don't call them Mexicans it's almost an insult.

Not at all -- I'm seeing the term "Persian" as a cultural term, which in your example would be akin to calling them Hispanic or Spanish-American.
When it comes to Persian, the way I understand it
1-- there is a country Persia which has definite boundaries which change historically ...and, as per my examples above -- they have, at least on occassion reached "from Africa to India" - and on many occasions have included parts of the Caucas and Transoxania.
2-- then there's the Persian language group - which in ancient and early medieval period would include a whole batch of horse nomads (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans) who are not necessarily culturally Persian.
3-- then there's Persian culture -- which, as I understand it, is substantially different from Arab culture.
It is my understanding that the governing "culture" of the Timurid empire -- which was actually centered at Samarkand in Transoxania, modern Uzbekestan -- was a thorough blending of Persian and Turk -- with the Persian considered by the Timurids to be superior to the Turk.
...and Persian artists, builders, metal workers, etc. were actively "recruited" from the rest of the "Persian world" to assure that it was in fact Samarkand that was the center of Persian culture in the later 14th through early 16th century.
As for the Caucas -- this region was a sort of battleground betwen Byzantium and Persia - with the different groups essentially taking sides and merging more or less with the one dominant "civilisation" or the other, while also integrating some influence from the second.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

OK your right. I just wanted to see where you would go with this. We each have our own opinion and that with 89 cents plus tax will get us each a Coke at the corner store.

Well, there goes my idea of using a madu instead of a heater.
My harness has very smooth articulation, but the cop wings are too large to use my shield with. I was thinking I might use a madu instead of a shield. That way I could use my mobility and speed to defeat my opponent. But since the Madu is such a hated weapon I guess I will just cut the wing off my left cop and use a shield instead. What a pain in the ass.
Or I could ignore all this and just fight with it anyway.
Does the hatered of the weapon really stem from it being "non-european" or is it because those that use them are usually very deadly with them?
Just wondering.

OK your right. I just wanted to see where you would go with this. We each have our own opinion and that with 89 cents plus tax will get us each a Coke at the corner store.

Oh, come on man -- don't quit on me --
I'm not doing this for flaming or whatever.
I really want to know where you're coming from and in what way you're addressing the issues.

wlfrik --
This was just occuring to me -
I would guess that using a flag-pole or some such was done at times -
and many proponents of baskethilts say that it's one of those "none existant" modern conveniences (so while fighting with a basket sword they pretend that its a cross-hilt)
By that logic -- is a Madu really a Madu unless you want it to be? Couldn't it be a flagpole?


------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

And the madu argument continues...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'd like to see real evidence that:

1. The madhu was solid steel (even infrequently).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw one with my own eyes in the Wallace collection in london, and I believe they had several. You can probably find a copy of the catalog for their collection in a well stocked library. Whenever I get around to writing all this madu research up as an essay, I'll include the exact reference.

2. That the weapon was used by anyone but the monks it is atributed to.

I have two bits of evidence on this one. The first is the presence of the madu/adarga in the Royal Armory of Spain. I highly doubt that monks from India were involved in the moorish conquest of spain.
Second, as I understand the evidence it is only the "Fakir's horns" configuration that was used by the fakirs. In this version, the weapon consists of two longish horns pointing in opposite directions, the butts overlapping by about 8 inches and connected together by metal rods. There were also solid steel versions of this as well. I'll attempt a quick ascii diagram:

|
|
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|
|-|
| |
|-|
|
|
|
|

The versions with a buckler attached were an adaptation specifically for armed combat.

From my reading, the use of the madu was attributed to several groups within india, only one of which was the fakirs.

3. That in any form it was a slashing weapon.

There are variations on the weapon that certainly were slashing weapons, including one that was essentially two wide daggers (~3-4 inches wide at base) pointing in opposite directions and sharing a single hilt.
If we're specifically talking about the 4-5 foot version most commonly replicated in the SCA, it is really only a thrusting weapon. One could slash with the very tip (as with any spear), but that kind of blow really isn't acknowledgable in SCA combat.

4. Any source of information on the "sainte".

I can offer several. "Indian arms and Armor" by G.N. Pant has pictures and references for the weapon, as does Lord Egerton's "Indian and Oriental armour". It is essentially the same as a "Fencing Pole", but has spikes on one or both ends.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

General note:

When thinking about the madu, it's important to remember that the particular configuration that the SCA calls "Madu" is only a single example from a wide continuum of related weapons. The Indians were remarkably prolific when it came to weapon types, coming up with designs that would never have left the anvil in Europe even while they used exactly the same shield for 3000 years.

Sorry Norman Didn't mean to bug out like that but I had a crappy day at work
I went to an event today and on the three hour trip I thought about something else. If we were discussing an "Indian" sword being used by other nationalities/cultures it woulnd't be a big deal, I would be more suprised if it didn't happen. But basically what we are talking about is non-standard weapon, I just think that the chances of this fairly obscure weapon being used outside of the area is not so great. Which brings me to another question maybe you can answer. Was the weapon used all over India? according to my Mughul India MAA book Akbar only made it about a third of the way down the continent. Was it used in the South or North.
Now returning to my query up top, what about Pata's, it was a much more common weapon but how far West or North do we see it taken? ( have you made a Pata for SCA combat, just curious?)
At the event there was not any fighters that I thought would know a great deal about our original question about Persia but I sent out a few emails to people about their concept but none have returned yet.