The Armour Archive

Posted: **Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:36 pm**

horsefriend wrote:I had a butted mail hauberk by, um 1981 I think. Wore it for a number of years but the weight (36lbs) really messed with the 2 herniated disks in my back. If could afford the nice superlight mail available today, I'd go back to it just for the look. The only negative I remember is when it got down to the 40's the mail wicked the heat out of you so fast it was frightening. I made a frakin wool blanket surcoat for nighttime winter practice.

alail/scott

The trick with mail when it's cold out...just lay across a car battery for a few seconds, heats that mail right up :twisted:

Posted: **Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:14 pm**

Chris Gilman wrote:
horsefriend wrote:I had a butted mail hauberk by, um 1981 I think. Wore it for a number of years but the weight (36lbs) really messed with the 2 herniated disks in my back. If could afford the nice superlight mail available today, I'd go back to it just for the look. The only negative I remember is when it got down to the 40's the mail wicked the heat out of you so fast it was frightening. I made a frakin wool blanket surcoat for nighttime winter practice.

alail/scott

The trick with mail when it's cold out...just lay across a car battery for a few seconds, heats that mail right up

but do they call you sparky when you are done?

Posted: **Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:52 pm**

I am definitely going to be adding more mail myself after I replace some of the covered plastic with metal. Eventually I want to have a harness that is as close to the real deal as I can get it.

Posted: **Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:01 pm**

Isabella E wrote:I am definitely going to be adding more mail myself after I replace some of the covered plastic with metal. Eventually I want to have a harness that is as close to the real deal as I can get it.

Yea fe-maille.

Uric

Posted: **Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:16 am**

I gotta get some to finish up my Hohenklingen harness, and I need some butcher's mail voiders to augment my 16th Century pike kit.

Posted: **Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:09 am**

sha-ul wrote:but do they call you sparky when you are done?

Blackoak wrote:Yea fe-maille.

I'd like to thank each of you for causing me to lose IQ points this morning. ;-)

Posted: **Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:15 am**

Jestyr wrote:
sha-ul wrote:but do they call you sparky when you are done?

Blackoak wrote:Yea fe-maille.

I'd like to thank each of you for causing me to lose IQ points this morning.

Posted: **Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:29 pm**

I've got a flat ring riveted to wear under... well something, haven't decides what yet.

I soo need to get some voiders, and a standard, and a skit to wear under my 15th century stuff.

Posted: **Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:04 pm**

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Is anybody else as pumped as I am about all the mail being worn these days?
-V

I know I am ... at the least it's getting me back into my military mindset. My transitional harness with maille comes in at 56# weight with helm/shield & weapon. My gear in the active military came in at a little under 70# with weapon, ammo and ruck. The new 'game' is getting me back into shape whether I need it or not. The extra #'s from the maille gets me down into a better stance and is in a passive way increasing my core strength again.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:11 pm**

I'd say we're pretty pumped about it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9317433@N06/4147630175/

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:49 pm**

*laughs* I was just thinking about this and posted about purchasing some for myself in the classifides section.

I have a question for those who wear it though:

I am sure that I'll experiment with different things under chain, but what size do most suggest purchasing?

I've heard most people say take what you'll wear under it (be it a tunic or padded gambeson or whatever) and add 10 inches to it. I've also heard people say to add 5. Is that so that you can move in it or is that so you can add other stuff (say additional padding in a spot that hurts maybe?) and still be able to wear the hauberk?

The reason I ask is that I don't know exactly what I'll end up wearing underneath the thing (I'm leaning towards simply a padded gambeson) but I'd prefer not to have to buy a new one if what I get is too bulky for it to sit right or move in it.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:41 pm**

Mord wrote:
Duke Icefalcon wrote:How cool would it look to do a Hastings type battle at Pennsic with all of the combatants wearing maille? A maille only battle would make some good pics. Only shields and weapons of the period would be allowed.

I am not known to be focused hardcore on the period battles but that is one I would not mind playing in myself. Not to mention it is much cheaper to get a kit together for something like that.

Ice

With respect to all.

How cool would it look to have a battle anywhere that His Grace describes? Pretty cool. I for one would appreciate it.

However, I have my doubts has to the historical accuracy of it. The general historical wisdom is that all participants in the Battle of Hastings wore maille (or mail, as folks spell it). When asked about what armour was worn, most folks point unwaveringly to the Bayeux Tapesty and go from there. Of course, nobody (and, yep, here's where I'm being a heretic) actually questions the historical accuracy of the source.

But consider for a moment that The Tapestry had more to do with manipulating perception, than telling the truth. After all, it's this source that shows Harald Godwinsson, King of England, being killed by arrow through the eye. This death is pretty much consider a legend--which is to say probably not true.

Given this, I would ask myself whether or not what I am seeing is a reflection of reality or a reflection of what the makers of the Tapesty wanted me to see. Answering that question is not very easy, but it's something I've working for the last year.

Suffice to say, that mail should only be used by folks for whom their specific persona it applied to. Using mail is result, not a beginning point.

What part of Normandy are you from? What is your family and your position in it? What are your dues (fees) to the Duke, if any, and what did he owe you?

Mord.

They have one every year at a little place called Battle Abby. It's worth the trip

If you don't want to go that far, we can always set one up for Gulf Wars. We tried last year but it got started way too late and things fell through.

I've been fighting in mail since 1987 and it's all i've ever fought in. Being able to reduce the weight from 34lbs to 16lbs with Forthcastle hauberks was the best thing to come along in ages.

Until Knutt that is

Greenshield+

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:06 pm**

Greenshield wrote:
They have one every year at a little place called Battle Abby. It's worth the trip

Where and when is this? I don't know anything about it.

Greenshield wrote:Until Knutt that is

I thought you were down on him because he screwed up and then went AWOL. Am I mis-remembering?

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:08 pm**

Judging by the number of people who participate in the Plate and Maille Tourney at Pennsic I doubt we would have the numbers needed to pull off a battle.

I like the idea. Have it during the day and I'm there. Have it in the evening and "no thank you".

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:10 pm**

Mord wrote:

Suffice to say, that mail should only be used by folks for whom their specific persona it applied to. Using mail is result, not a beginning point.

I strongly disagree.

I think that a person can backtrack from mail. If you are seriously a fan of mail, you center your persona on that, and research who would have worn it, and go in that direction.

For some people, the bling, is more important than the origin story, or name.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:36 pm**

Jestyr wrote:I thought you were down on him because he screwed up and then went AWOL. Am I mis-remembering?

Nope, you are not mistaken.

As a businessman Knutt is craptastically bad. However, his product is top notch when he does it right. The best way to buy from Knutt is off the table or through a 2nd hand distributor who has it on the table.

GreenShield+

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:25 pm**

Jestyr wrote:
Greenshield wrote:
They have one every year at a little place called Battle Abby. It's worth the trip

Where and when is this? I don't know anything about it

Jestyr, he is talking about the Hastings reenactment held in Battle, England.

Uric

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:58 pm**

Yeah, let me see, I think I have bought 3 or 4 sets of maile and debating on if I want to buy another set.

I love my look right now, but well I also love the look of maile.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:47 am**

I like my mail shirt - it is a blacked, riveted haubergeon weighing in at about 16 lbs. The problem is that the rivets catch, and the rings tear. After about 6 months I have a few holes and what not.

So I guess I will have to find a welded one.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:03 am**

Considering that I remember the days when a lot of new folks would be making galvanized wire into mail - myself included - what I really love is that we can now get nice riveted, flat-ring mail. The look is so much better. Personally, I love my mail and wear it more and more often.

Yes, the influx of real mail is a very good thing!

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:18 am**

I think it is friggin awesome.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:19 am**

Dante della Luna wrote:Mord wrote:

Suffice to say, that mail should only be used by folks for whom their specific persona it applied to. Using mail is result, not a beginning point.

I strongly disagree.

I think that a person can backtrack from mail. If you are seriously a fan of mail, you center your persona on that, and research who would have worn it, and go in that direction.

For some people, the bling, is more important than the origin story, or name.

I suppose you're probably right, Dante. Basing your persona on an object (which is what mail really is) can be done, but I think it leads to a narrow point of view. Too many people base their persona on their gear, and then quit. In some stiutations, someone can spend all their time studying their gear, and completely miss the history or historic context behind it.

I think folks should start with the history, which is supposed to be the basis of our Soceity, and then develop a persona.

Mord.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:28 am**

Mord wrote:
Dante della Luna wrote:Mord wrote:

Suffice to say, that mail should only be used by folks for whom their specific persona it applied to. Using mail is result, not a beginning point.

I strongly disagree.

I think that a person can backtrack from mail. If you are seriously a fan of mail, you center your persona on that, and research who would have worn it, and go in that direction.

For some people, the bling, is more important than the origin story, or name.

I suppose you're probably right, Dante. Basing your persona on an object (which is what mail really is) can be done, but I think it leads to a narrow point of view. Too many people base their persona on their gear, and then quit. In some stiutations, someone can spend all their time studying their gear, and completely miss the history or historic context behind it.

I think folks should start with the history, which is supposed to be the basis of our Soceity, and then develop a persona.

Mord.

While I understand this point of view, I've found that for a lot of folk, the item that catches their attention is the 'hook' that draws them in. Be it mail, plate armor, a particular helm, or even a style of clothes. They see it and their emotions click in and go 'I want THAT!'. And in finding out how to get, make or wear 'THAT' they found out the fascinating history around it. And, in the SCA, for some it is the act of fighting, and those guys can be some of the most difficult to lead into the historic aspects because they "jus' wanna fight".

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:45 am**

I completely agree. When I started...it was about hitting people with sticks. HOW COOL WAS THAT?!?

Then it slowly morphed into a particular look on the field. It would be awesome to get some maille and do the viking thing (viking and crusader look are my two favorite). That led me into the history of it.

I agree that a lot of the enjoyment of the SCA can be reliving the history and learning (in my case) about it but I think it's a somewhat narrow view, Mord, to suggest that b/c that's what the original people felt, that's what everyone SHOULD feel.

Some of the coolest people in the SCA could easily describe their persona as "stick jock" and that's great. They are there, having fun, and they make a reasonable effort to look good on the field.

I admit it's annoying when people go with polyester neon tabard over blue jeans and pickle barrel plastic armor (which is not bad as a temporary thing if that's what you can do) and never move on...that annoys me.

But the ones that simply make a pretty tabard b/c they really like their pickle barrel...that's fine.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:58 am**

I have a feeling, that in the coming days of the SCA (which in the grand scheme of things could be a decade or more) you are going to see a real shift towards quality, instead of quantity.

I think this is spawning from the ease of research thanks to the internet, the plethora of fine armorers that are available, and the growing numbers of people that are being brought up in the SCA, starting as youth in better quality kits, and coming into their own as adult fighters.

I know that when I have children, and should they want to be involved in the SCA, then I will make sure they are appropriately attired.

I think also that there will be a number of fringe groups that attach themselves to the SCA who will either adapt and join our game and what it is becoming, or move on their way.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:05 pm**

Baron Eirik wrote:
Mord wrote:
Dante della Luna wrote:Mord wrote:

Suffice to say, that mail should only be used by folks for whom their specific persona it applied to. Using mail is result, not a beginning point.

I strongly disagree.

I think that a person can backtrack from mail. If you are seriously a fan of mail, you center your persona on that, and research who would have worn it, and go in that direction.

For some people, the bling, is more important than the origin story, or name.

I suppose you're probably right, Dante. Basing your persona on an object (which is what mail really is) can be done, but I think it leads to a narrow point of view. Too many people base their persona on their gear, and then quit. In some stiutations, someone can spend all their time studying their gear, and completely miss the history or historic context behind it.

I think folks should start with the history, which is supposed to be the basis of our Soceity, and then develop a persona.

Mord.
While I understand this point of view, I've found that for a lot of folk, the item that catches their attention is the 'hook' that draws them in. Be it mail, plate armor, a particular helm, or even a style of clothes. They see it and their emotions click in and go 'I want THAT!'. And in finding out how to get, make or wear 'THAT' they found out the fascinating history around it. And, in the SCA, for some it is the act of fighting, and those guys can be some of the most difficult to lead into the historic aspects because they "jus' wanna fight".

I call the, "I want that" reaction the magpie syndrome. Still others call such stuff "flash and trash." Sure it looks good, and I like to look good, and, yes, when I was young, I thought Gothic Armour was the shit...

But, it doesn't last, in my experience. Studying history and literature has been much more rewarding.

Mord.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:13 pm**

I still love Gothic armor. i just don't want to fight in it, I'm too lazy.

I just rarely see a love for history be the thing that brings people into SCA or reenacting (there are exceptions, of course). But I do see learning to enjoy history be one of the things that keep them. YMMV

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:30 pm**

Baron Eirik wrote:I still love Gothic armor. i just don't want to fight in it, I'm too lazy.

I just rarely see a love for history be the thing that brings people into SCA or reenacting (there are exceptions, of course). But I do see learning to enjoy history be one of the things that keep them. YMMV

I think that an interest in History is needed.. but the love of History is what develops.

I know a number of non SCA people who go to Renn Faires, make a mockery of Histoy, but profess their love for it.
No I won't say that they are not interested in History on some level, but I would definitely say they don't love it. Because if they did they would see the shame they bring to it.

They trick in developing this love quickly is by showing that the "real" thing can look just as good as the "flash and trash"
There needs to be a way to highlight the fact that real History can be just as fun and entertaining as Disney History

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:37 pm**

MJBlazek wrote:They trick in developing this love quickly is by showing that the "real" thing can look just as good as the "flash and trash"
There needs to be a way to highlight the fact that real History can be just as fun and entertaining as Disney History

This. I would only add that accurate kit needs to become and be seen as being as affordable and accessible as the inaccurate (or nearly so).

20-mumble years ago, it was not. It is a lot more so now. I know I have been slow to nudge my own 'good enough' bar higher, but I try.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:11 pm**

i just know that I am slowly starting to feel like a slime because after I switched to lammelar from Mail because of knee surgery recovery; I haven't switched back. The lammelar is awesome for what we do but the mail would be better. The worst part is I have no excuse... I have round riveted mild mail. It is persona accurate and it mostly sits on its armor stand at home unless I am doing demos. :oops:

I am going to wear it to practice tomorrow night and see if I can start to get used to wearing it again.

I have found that it doesn't really impede my fighting any other than driving my stamina down. That is just a matter of fitness again and adjusting back to the weight. We shall see if the body is willing to support that again or not.

regards
Thorvaldr

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:02 pm**

Jestyr wrote:It is still pretty uncommon here in Trimaris. I am likely getting a haubergeon in the near future, but am nervous about it. Here, in the summer, it is like breathing soup.

But this is were mail comes in handy. If your gambeson is soaked from sweat, turn yourself in to the breeze and your mail will act like a radiator.

I do this all the time at Pennsic. (My 14th c. rig doesn't have a backplate) It works great.

Take care,

Duane

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:11 pm**

Yeah couple of years ago, when I wore my old chainmail at pennsic, I actually got chilled a couple of times due to the nice breeze coming thru my linen shirt I wore under the maile.

I wonder what I have around here to sell to get me another shirt.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:19 pm**

In Florida, certainly South Florida, there is no breeze in the summer unless you are near the beach. Here, it is just muggy.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:10 pm**

You simply can't compare the rest of the country to Florida summers. I often get cold at Pennsic and Gulf Wars in Florida we reach 90's+ from March to September or later. We get hot early in the day and do not cool of much at night. Heavily padded gambisons/akitons are a death trap because of the humidity 50 to 60% in the winter and off the charts in the summer. Wax boils out of leather if left in the sun. Don't visit for a week, live hear and get worn down by it.
I think TI and Spring Steel even melts here but that is still a unconfirmed rumor.... :wink:

I think Texas from Houston down has about the same weather, not sure about the humidity though.
Thor.

P.S. I wear Chain mostly in the cooler months or at night (below 90's) because the sun heats it up too much.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:19 pm**

THe interesting thing regarding mail, is that it was the primary defence worn by most of the conquistadores in the various Florida expeditions, when they were drumming up the recruits on Hispaniola for it. Historically, people wore mail as a defense in Colonial Florida - I am not sure what the temperature data was for early 16th century Florida, but it is just towards the beginning of the Late Medieval Cooling trend, and well before the Maunder minimum.

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