Balsa jousting in the SCA

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:20 pm

Piers Brent wrote:Very astute. Which is one of the reasons why doing historical jousting before 1420ish is unlikely to happen because of the introduction of the tilt. I think it might be fun to do so without but certainly not what people are doing.

I increasingly agree- and I say that having jousted in 14thC kit! (and getting hit in the eye!)

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:41 pm

One of the questions I would have is what manner of neck protection is afforded by 14th century helmets--in particular the heaume or great helm or the bascinet? It's one of the reasons I am not so interested in doing a 14th century jousting/tilting presentation, or if I did, there would be an ahistorical close gorget under the aventail of a bascinet.

Best,

John

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:59 pm

I have been struck in the throat several times while jousting in quite a deep late 14thc helm. I was wearing a mail standard lined with thick leather and plenty of padding. Still quite a shock though! -and I have a very thick neck!

You never see a joust of peace in a visored 14thC (ie. not a great bascinet) bascinet in historical souces. Pure jousting helms of the 14thC are worn on their own and have an un-divided occularium and the bottom edge in front of the top (ancestor of the frogmouth). eg. Nicolas Hauberk's nd Henry V's funeral helms.
You also get true great helms(with the division between the eyes) which are worn over bascinets - but I think this was for tournament proper (ie. melee)
eg Black Prince's etc....

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:16 am

Hi all,
From having tracked all the commentary on the discussion to this point, for the eye slots I believe the initial standard is likely to be set at 3/8", as presented to an oncoming rider. The decision to ride with safety goggles, or even modern eyewear, will be left to the individual to determine for themselves. While I know that creates extra work for some folks, I'd rather hear those lamentations, than the 'If we had only set it smaller' voices in the event something goes wrong.
That said, I'll be jousting in my 1/2" visored helm (not at events, of course) until I get a new one made.......
Sorry, if that doesn't work for some folks, but I wanted to get the word out as soon as possible so folks can make whatever adjustments to their gear as soon as possible.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. as an aside, there has been all sorts of speculation as to number of passes, incident rate of injury, etc. I hope folks realize that I'd love to have that information, but it just isn't out there. So, for better or worse, we are just having to go with anecdotal experience of those with the most time in grade. As we collect our own data, it will be factored into what we do.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:33 am

I saw a lance to the throat end a very talented jouster's career.
Right through a solid steel gorget...

I have a gold tooth from a lance hit to my mouth. (helmet undamaged)

I've seen a horse get lanced in the eye.

Injuries are to be expected.
Don't kid yourselves...then you won't be surprised.

The 3' balsa lances have almost no recoil compared to the WCJA lances.
I've had people tell me I hit them hard with a 3' balsa lance but I felt NO recoil from it.
When they tell me I hit them hard with a WCJA lance I usually already know it because my hand hurts.

I'm thinking of 3 divisions for SCA jousts that I produce:
Light: heater shields for targets
Medium: ecranche targets
Heavy: bare chest/head targets

Can we award points for unhorsing opponents?

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:50 am

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Can we award points for unhorsing opponents?

Only if they don't drop the reins. If they let go of the reins, no point. If they are dicks and hang on to the reins and yank their horse's mouth all to hell and gone, then you should get an immediate win.

Cheers!

Gordon

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:53 am

Where I usually joust one is awarded 10 points for unhorsing your opponent.
IJA/IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.
SCA is laissez-faire so far, so I thought I would ask...

Eule · Post by **Eule** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:03 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Where I usually joust one is awarded 10 points for unhorsing your opponent.
IJA/IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.
SCA is laissez-faire so far, so I thought I would ask...

The current foam jousting rules don't allow it, so it is unlikely that the balsa rules will.

...and don't fool yourself in thinking someone can't come off when hit by a cardboard tube...it has happened. When presented properly, it can hit (and not break) with as much force as a solid lance.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:04 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.

This is incorrect.

It is up to each IJL tournament organizer to set rules regarding that.

The IJL has no official policy on scoring unhorsings or any other type of scoring, for that matter. FYI, I'm the IJL Board rep for the USA.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:11 pm

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:
Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.

This is incorrect.

It is up to each IJL tournament organizer to set rules regarding that.

The IJL has no official policy on scoring unhorsings or any other type of scoring, for that matter. FYI, I'm the IJL Board rep for the USA.

Have they ever?

Eule wrote:...and don't fool yourself in thinking someone can't come off when hit by a cardboard tube...it has happened. When presented properly, it can hit (and not break) with as much force as a solid lance.

When did I fool myself?

I've seen people that would come off if you glare at them too hard. :lol:

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:32 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:
Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:
Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.

This is incorrect.

It is up to each IJL tournament organizer to set rules regarding that.

The IJL has no official policy on scoring unhorsings or any other type of scoring, for that matter. FYI, I'm the IJL Board rep for the USA.

Have they ever?

No. See above. The IJL position is consistent and unchanged.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:33 pm

This is the question I was asking:
Have the IJL (or IJA) ever awarded points in a tournament for unhorsings?

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:39 pm

deleted irrelevant post

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:42 pm

Back in the 90's when I rode for the NRGA, if you unhorsed your opponent, you got to win the show. It was pre-determined who would win the show, but if you knocked the other guy off, you automatically won.
Needless to say, this lead to us trying to knock each other off with every pass. I have tons of video on VHS tapes of us and our giant ego's playing russian roulette with our jousting patners. We were young and indestructible then. Not so much now as I am paying for all those passes. I have kids, and a wife, and much to lose now. If unhorsings are something that is going to be strove for I will skip it. Yeah, I know I'm a pussy. Lots of people can attest to my huge sandy vagina-ness and pussyhood.

If I had a say, I'd say the fastest way to get the SCA to drop balsa like a magma hot rock is start having people fall off because people are aiming to unhorse them. Just my.02.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:50 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:The IJL as a body has no official rules. As Jeff states, It is up to each IJL affiliated tournament organizer to set the rules for their tournament. The IJL mostly serves to audit events to make sure tournament organizers have a plan, and that they stick to the stated plan.

Gwen

So is that a yes or a no?
I am still not clear on the answer.
I'll re-word it yet again.
Have points ever been awarded to a participant in an IJL (or IJA) tournament for unhorsing an opponent?

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:58 pm

Gordon hit on a point I was going to bring up - dropping reins duirng the run. While this would require a closed list, I have seen quite a few horses that were ruined by their rider cranking back hard on the reins when they took a shot.

Back in 2003 (?) at the Estes Park Tournament, I caught a guy with a solid shot on his shield that nearly caused him to pull his horse over on top of him. The horse then balked 9 straight times when we tried to finish up the passes. eventually having to be retired from the event.

I wasn't totally sold on dropping reins until I took the time to look at a bunch of photos of myself and other jousters pulling back our horse's heads when taking a hit. Didn't take me long to change my mind and now I wouldn't do it any other way. Protecting our equine partners has always been the #! priority to me when I jousted. Like I always told my jousters, we can get hurt, that's expected, one horse gets hurt and the show is over.

I have been working on a "how-to" manual on this and hope to have a copy ready for folks to look at next week. It won't cover every situation, but it will cover the really important issues that are often overlooked.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:05 pm

I like to drop the reigns.

I like the feeling of freedom it gives me.
The FreeLancers tried to train that out of me but it didn't really work.

Eule · Post by **Eule** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:07 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:When did I fool myself?
I've seen people that would come off if you glare at them too hard.

Sorry...I really didn't mean to aim that specifically in your direction! ;-)

I certainly agree that sacks of potatoes have a tendency to find the ground when placed upon a horse....but, to clarify, these were good riders.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:07 pm

I'd rather fall off than pull on my horses mouth. It's the fastest way to sour a horse to the joust short of hitting him the head with a lance. Both are unacceptable IMO.

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:27 pm

In general, scoring is going to be determined by event organizers, however for jousting in the SCA the intention is to break a balsa tip on a shield. After we have developed a solid track record of success with that format, we can take a look and see if we want to expand our options as circumstances warrant.
Have to keep in mind that when we're working with a massive organization changes come slowly........Let's take things one step at a time as we work to get everyone on the same page.

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:35 pm

deleted irrelevant post

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:43 pm

deleted irrelevant post

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:46 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:As regards the question of unhorsing, the WCJA...

I didn't ask you about the WCJA.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:48 pm

deleted irrelevant post

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:49 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:
Black Swan Designs wrote:The IJL as a body has no official rules. As Jeff states, It is up to each IJL affiliated tournament organizer to set the rules for their tournament. The IJL mostly serves to audit events to make sure tournament organizers have a plan, and that they stick to the stated plan.

Gwen

So is that a yes or a no?
I am still not clear on the answer.
I'll re-word it yet again.
Have points ever been awarded to a participant in an IJL (or IJA) tournament for unhorsing an opponent?

I can't speak for the IJA. I was a member once, but not currently.

To my knowledge no IJL affiliated tournament to date has awarded points for unhorsings.

In our WorldJoust tournaments, the last two of which were IJL affiliated, we require a rider remain mounted to receive any points he scored for a given course. So, if you come off, you don't get any points, regardless of where your lance hit.

Toby and Luke unhorsed each other in our last Tournament of the Phoenix. Neither received any score for that course.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:54 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:As regards the question of unhorsing, the WCJA actively promotes unhorsing, and utilizes equipment specifically designed to effect that result.

If there is an organization already set up that promotes the activity, why not joust there? If the WCJA wasn't available, I could see promoting unhorsing in other organizations, but the fact is it is there, so why not joust where they're already doing what you want to do?

That's exactly why Jeff went to Europe to joust in the first place- the style of jousting he wanted to do was already available. He didn't go to the WCJA and say 'I don't want to be unhorsed, so change your rules to suit me.'

Gwen

Do you know that the WCJA no longer exists?

It is appropriate for me to ask anything I want about the SCA, having been a heavy fighter for over 20 years.

You really ought to work on that spontaneous and inappropriate lecturing thing that you do.

Anonymous Coward · Post by **Anonymous Coward** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:18 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Can we award points for unhorsing opponents?

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Where I usually joust one is awarded 10 points for unhorsing your opponent.
IJA/IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.
SCA is laissez-faire so far, so I thought I would ask...

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Have the IJL (or IJA) ever awarded points in a tournament for unhorsings?

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Have points ever been awarded to a participant in an IJL (or IJA) tournament for unhorsing an opponent?

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:It is appropriate for me to ask anything I want about the SCA, having been a heavy fighter for over 20 years.

Yeah, that totally gives you absolute rights.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:You really ought to work on that spontaneous and inappropriate lecturing thing that you do.

I like pie... and I liked lurking around this discussion until a certain someone started behaving like an @$$.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:32 pm

Oh well. This thread had a really good run before it got stupid.

Me asking about unhorsings ain't what brought out the stupid - that's a legitimate scoring question.

Way to remove the Hitler comment, Troll!

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:37 pm

This has to be a record for a jousting thread before it got to the try to get the unhorsing topic.

Anonymous Coward · Post by **Anonymous Coward** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:43 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Oh well. This thread had a really good run before it got stupid.

Indeed.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Me asking about unhorsings ain't what brought out the stupid - that's a legitimate scoring question.

The stupid was brought out by HOW you asked it.. and asked it... and asked it...

Back to the great discussion it was, please!

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:48 pm

Guess every thread has to divert a bit before we get back to the business at hand.......
So, who is planning on being at Gulf Wars to kick around the discussion there? Need to know so I can have enough margarita's on hand for the equestrian camp.
Dave/Alexis

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:49 pm

Anonymous Coward wrote:
Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Oh well. This thread had a really good run before it got stupid.

Indeed.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Me asking about unhorsings ain't what brought out the stupid - that's a legitimate scoring question.

The stupid was brought out by HOW you asked it.. and asked it... and asked it...

Back to the great discussion it was, please!

I asked a simple question until I got a simple yes or no answer instead of semantics and obfuscation.
Jeff eventually obliged me with the info I sought and for that I am appreciative.
The answer was NO in case you missed it.

I intend to promote SCA jousting where I live and need to know the parameters.
My friends will be all like :roll:

when I tell them not to try to unhorse.

Please don't let me distract you any further from your anonymous cowardly trolling. It is important work and I would hate to think I was keeping you from it.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:17 pm

Sorry if all the old pussy guys wreck it for the real jousters.......

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:21 pm

Don't worry, we're used to it.

The truth is: most of my friends have a set of 3' balsa lances by now.

dominic · Post by **dominic** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:24 pm

Jeez Trystyn, just drop it. You got you answer about the IJA and we know your opinion about jousting without the goal of unhorsing. If you and "your friends are going to be all :roll:

" about it, that's fine. If we're not manly enough for you, it sounds like you already have a perfect venue to joust in. Have fun.

Sir Alexis; I'll be at Gulf Wars and looking forward to meeting you there. I sent a note to Eule as well, but I'm up for helping any way I can (I can swing a mean poop shovel.

)