Balsa jousting in the SCA

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

If we're not manly enough for you...

You'll do.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

If we're not manly enough for you...

You'll do.

T-

If you think you've got something to prove here, you're in the wrong frickin' game, man. There's no place for grudges on the jousting field. This has been my problem with the "solid lance" jousting crowd for quite a while. They think balsa jousters are pussies and always want to prove how they're jousting "for real" and that we are just a buncha wimps for using balsa. Call us whatever the fuck you want. I don't give a crap. I do hate that it always seems to come down to this bullshit.

May as well just call us all "anonymous cowards".

Sheesh.

J

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

I only answer up for things I have said.
I didn't say any of this triteness.
I guess you missed the part where I said most of us have 3' balsa lances now.
Get a grip, diva-dude.

[Sir Alexis]

I do hope that folks will step away from the keyboard a bit instead of letting the thread get diverted. It would be nice if folks were able to reference this thread as a resource to see why the rules are drafted the way they are so that there will be greater acceptance of them. If folks can see that the standards are the result of reasoned discussion accounting for the balsa jousting experience that has accumulated over the years, it will help develop consistency in the jousting community.

Just a suggestion.....

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

My humblest apologies.

[Black Swan Designs]

I'm very sorry if talking about historical precedence is considered obfuscation. It wasn't offered as a diversion, it was offered as information.

I've been told I was 'too historical for the SCA' before, and sometimes I forget. Thanks for the reminder.

I guess I don't really have anything to offer. I can only talk about history and what the IJL is doing, which doesn't appear to have much bearing here.

My abject apologies for the derail.

Gwen

[Lord_Wolf]

Bad Gwen...Go to the corner for your timeout.




-Faithful Lackey

[Sir Alexis]

Hey Gwen,
I hope it's been pretty apparent that the intention here (as far I have a say in it) has been to increase the historical accuracy of what we are doing, exactly the opposite of the customary complaint with the SCA. Similarly, the dialogue has been very much centered around what has worked successfully in other groups, including the IJA and IJL (as measured by a positive safety record).
I know folks feel passionately about the subject, and that's all well and good. Just trying to keep the discussion focused on what has worked, why the standards should be set at a certain point and then developing the best events we can.
I can say with a great deal of confidence that those participating in balsa jousting are going to have some of the nicest kits around.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

[Rittmeister Frye]

Thanks Lloyd and others for jumping in on the ganking of the horse's mouths issue. I've seen WAY too many photo's of otherwise secent horsemen just pulling the shit out of their poor horse's mouths when going down the tilt. Doesn't even have to be after they're hit even. Seems like every time I look through a batch of photo's of a major event, there's always someone (often as not a fairly novice rider, but not always) just yanking away on the poor horse. Something we should be very aware of, least we become targets of the SPCA or something. We already have sufficient folks to placate as it is.

I am VERY glad to read folks on this thread mentioning that riding ability is one of the bars that must be met prior to jousting with balsa. As Gwen noted, the horse is a partner in this, not just a vehicle.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Black Swan Designs]

I've gone back and deleted the irrelevant posts relating to IJL practice and history.

Again, I'm -very- sorry for the derail, that was not my intention.

Gwen

[Equestria]

IJL does not award points for unhorsing an opponent.

This is incorrect.

It is up to each IJL tournament organizer to set rules regarding that.

The IJL has no official policy on scoring unhorsings or any other type of scoring, for that matter. FYI, I'm the IJL Board rep for the USA.

Have they ever?

No. See above. The IJL position is consistent and unchanged.

Ok, maybe I'm just new at this, so gimme a little leeway here. Why did Jeff contradict himself like that and then go on to fight about it? And as far as I am concerned, if you havent been in the helmet and faced an opponent in combat on horseback, then you have no position to sit on your mushroom of judgement and say what is wrong or right- OK?

[Raynold of Wharram]

As asked, Alexis - I will be at Gulf Wars. Bring two servings of margaritas for me by the way. He is here some but I know Edmund (Chris) plans on being at GW as well though he will probably be light on the margarita consumption.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Why did Jeff contradict himself like that

How did I contradict myself?

[Rittmeister Frye]

I believe that Jeff states (if I may boil it down) that while the IJL rules do not address the award of points for an unhorsing, if the individual event organizer chooses to do so, he may. As yet, none have.

That was certainly how I took it to mean. Pretty straightforward.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Leo Medii]

Holy cow. It's like the sidewalk cracks have opened up and, damn, every person who won't put a name and face to what they have to say has to come drive by posting....

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Gordon got it. I thought I was clear. Apparently I'm not the only one.

[Leo Medii]

Gordon got it. I thought I was clear. Apparently I'm not the only one.

I got it. I just figured that we were back on that whole "real jouster" topic now.

Perhaps the idea of invitation only is the way to go.....

[Equestria]

My point in saying that Jeff contradicted himself is this; when Trystyn said "IJL doesnt do unhorsings" OF COURSE Jeff had to pipe up and say that was incorrect when in fact, they have NEVER recognized unhorsings? I realize his motive was to, I suppose, clarify? Seems like it seriously devolved from there. Just saying..........

If you want to go invitation only, you will be excluding alot of worthy people simply b/c you do not agree with their point of view. Might as well be a privately held tourney instead of said marketed SCA jousting.
Thanks everyone!

[Equestria]

And here is my picture for the record.......

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

As amusing as these digressions may have been, it behooves us to get back on topic.

Where do we stand on leather gorgets?

[jens]

If I remember correctly, I believe the discussion was tending towards requiring steel. Personally, I'm planning on mine being made out of steel regardless of what the reqs say.

[Lloyd]

Gordon got it. I thought I was clear. Apparently I'm not the only one.

I thought you were pretty clear, Jeff.

For those of you who have never spent time on a joust forum, this is pretty tame.

Tryst, Let's give everyone their due and encourage the development and expansion of the sport that we all love. IMHO, it would have been more chivalrous to address many of those post through PMs. Your input on this as an active jouster is very important, let's leave all the other stuff out, okay?

Jeff, since I haven't had the opportunity, and now never will, to actually participate in an IJL tournament, I am very interested how they have grown to be so successful. I think that your input is important and that it definitely serves a purpose and would ask that you continue to provide your insight.

But, I think that all of us are here for the same reason - Dave has politely asked for info on balsa jousting, what works/what doesn't, and for input on how to do this safely. Let's keep our focus on what is important and try to help him out as much as possible.

[Lloyd]

Where do we stand on leather gorgets?

Oh hell no. Steel is the only way to go if the helm does not provide coverage (and I always wore one even with a 16th century close helm). This is inviting disaster.

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Tryst, Let's give everyone their due and encourage the development and expansion of the sport that we all love. IMHO, it would have been more chivalrous to address many of those post through PMs. Your input on this as an active jouster is very important, let's leave all the other stuff out, okay?

Points taken.

No blood no foul.

I am all for keeping this conversation on track.
Let's help the SCA learn to joust.
That is all that really matters here (to me).

[2Shires]

Lloys says...

Oh hell no. Steel is the only way to go if the helm does not provide coverage (and I always wore one even with a 16th century close helm). This is inviting disaster.

Agreed. Going over the current iteration of the regs, I will put forth there should perhaps be another look at:

Leather breastplates - No, please. Steel. I won't go so far as to put people in 14ga, but steel.

16ga arms I think 16ga may be overkill here. 18ga mild (eq) is plenty on an arm. If they are using spring as the good Lord intended it will be much lighter. 16ga makes for a very heavy arm, tired arm, poor aim.

Leather gaunts, pref backed w mail.
I may be alone here, but I would want steel gaunts as well. *I know they can be a pain* Just in our experience. Smashed fingers are also. Getting used to jousting in properly fitting gauntlets takes well, getting used to. but, IMO, beats the alternative.

Leather is nigh on useless for this and backed w mail will just make a lovely mail imprint on your fingers. Thoughts? Am I off base?

Many of you have been doing this ages longer than I have. Love to hear your thoughts.
Bev

[Rittmeister Frye]

I would certainly say that unless you are wearing a helmet that rests on your shoulders and is fixed to your breastplate and backplate, you would definitely want a steel gorget. Leather just doesn't have the strength to protect your larynx in the event of a socket strike to the throat. It may well protect well against splinters, but not sockets.

Per arms, yeah, 16 ga might be overkill. I don't believe mine are that heavy, and they're plenty protective. Well, usually. One of the things is that we're dealing with what would amount to puncture strikes, rather than blunt instrument strikes like the rest of the SCA is used to, so the needs of the armour are slightly different.

Same goes with the leather chest protection. It's less likely to protect against a sharp lance (i.e. a broken one but still intact, with a sharp point), or a socket, than steel, though it may well work against a rattan club.

Likewise the maille fist. I'd certainly prefer to see plate gaunts for the reasons stated by Bev.

Cheers!

Gordon

Edited to address more issues in one post...

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Having thought this through, I would probably refuse passes against someone with a leather breastplate and gorget.

I have never used a right hand gauntlet.
I use a padded arming glove from Revival.
I have also been lanced in the left hand while wearing one of these gloves without a steel manifer and I was NOT injured. (i have a steel manifer now though!)

Arms and legs can be 18ga steel and be ok IMHO.

Here are the FreeLancers armour specs: (my alma mater)

3/4 to full suit of plate must be worn.

Helmets - 14 gage skull minimum with locking visors. 2 inch wide maximum ocularium.
Gorget - 18 gage minimum.
Breast plate - 14 gage minimum.
Back plate - 18 gage minimum.
Elbow and knee cops - 16 gage minimum.
Vambraces, Rerebraces, and Cuisses - 18 gage minimum.
Gauntlets - Right-hand 18 gage minimum. Left hand 16 gage (Right hand optional. Left hand required for all styles other than French).
Sabatons 20 gage and Greaves 18 gage - Optional.
Plackarts, Targes, Frog-Mouthed Helms, Grande Guards and Buffs made of 14 gage (Optional but needed for Freestyle).
Shields - 16 gage minimum.
Horse Armour (Chamfron, Crinet and Peytral) - Optional.
Saddle Plate - 18 gage minimum. Saddle plates are optional.

* These were written for 1 1/4" solid dowel lances with a 12" balsa tip.

* I recommend that saddle plates are mandatory not optional in the SCA.

* French style means 16ga heater shields

What are we using for coronels? The FL use 1 1/4" copper pipe caps, available at any hardware store and reasonably priced.

[dominic]

Re: Coronels; in my personal, limited experience I really like the hard rubber ones that HE sells. They grab and stick very nicely and don't seem to slide as much as the copper caps. Plus they look great.

Granted; they may rock mightily, but it may not be kosher for the SCA to mandate using an item that is only available from one particular vendor. Or am I over-thinking it?

[Lloyd]

As for folks looking to upgrade or replace their armour (and want to support an American Small Business) I HIGHLY recommend Mercenary Tailor.

Over the years, Allan made a number of armour pieces for me and I was always impressed by the fit, the price, and how rock solid his armour is. In fact, when we were still doing Historic Camelot, Allan donated a 16ga breastplate to us to demonstrate armour on (and an early Crusader helm) which we beat the holy crap out of. I was always amazed at how well his armour stood up to the abuse that we gave it.

Allan is on the AA as Al and his website is HERE

Allan knows the rigors of jousting and builds his armour to stand up to it (and his breast/back/fauld/tasset combo can't be beat!).

I have used three kinds of coronels - copper caps, HE hard rubber, and aluminum and while the copper caps do slide a bit, I think that especially for training purposes, they are probably the best option. While the HE rubber ones really grab, we always had a bit of trouble keeping them on the tips. In a tourney, not a problem as you are not reusing the tips anyway, but in training, it could be a hassle.

My own suggestions for armour specs:

Helm 12ga skull, 14ga visor (all visors MUST be locking with the "latch" on the RIGHT side of the helm).
Breastplate - 14ga
Backplate - 16ga, if worn (most 14th century kits would be without it). A not on this, if you do go without a backplate, make sure that your gambeson/arming cote is of sufficient thickness to protect you in case of a fall).
Arms/Legs - cannons/cuisses 16ga, poleyns/couters 14ga
Gorget/Bevor - STEEL 16ga at least!
Greaves - 16ga
Sabatons - optional
Brayette (definitely NOT optional) 16ga links (rivetted is best)
Gauntlets - Finger gauntlets, 16/18ga will give you more control (that's why a lot of folks just use a glove on their right hand), but for the left you will need a heavier "clamshell" gauntlet or manifer (which I happen to have one for sale.... ) Trust me, you'll take hits on the left hand.
Occulars (eye openings) - not more than 3/8" (1/4" is better)
Breathes (breathing holes) - I would avoid having them on the left side of your helm (splinters are nasty buggers).
Saddle Plate - 16ga (while I highly recommend one, most folks won't be able to rebuild their saddles immediately - that being said, in 25 years of jousting, I never used one - but wished I did on more than one occassion)

I have more thoughts, but I'll have to post those later.


***Edited to cover for my loss of cognitive functioning ***

[Chris G.]

My own suggestions for armour specs:

Helm 12ga skull, 14ga visor (all visors MUST be locking with the "latch" on the left side of the helm).

Why the left? I think you would want the left side clear with fewer things to catch a lance. Same reason why breaths are smaller/omitted on the left side of some helms.

[dominic]

I'm going to guess that was a typo and he meant "right side".

[Lloyd]

My own suggestions for armour specs:

Helm 12ga skull, 14ga visor (all visors MUST be locking with the "latch" on the left side of the helm).

Why the left? I think you would want the left side clear with fewer things to catch a lance. Same reason why breaths are smaller/omitted on the left side of some helms.

SEE!!! After 12 concussions you don't know your right from your left!! Yes, I meant the RIGHT side (the side away from where you are getting hit). Also, sometype of locking mechanism is much preferable to a leather strap (believe me, this is from experience and ended up costing me quite a bit o'money).

[dominic]

[Jonathon Janusz]

Hi, again! Lloyd asked me to check back on this thread. Hope I'm (still?) welcome to play in the sandbox.

Regarding specs/standards (some stuff I didn't see noted earlier in thread):

Arm armour. Just saying, but the one piece of armour Lloyd always remembers fondly (other than his (Leo's) helm), were his bulletproof 12ga stainless pauldrons.

Gauntlets. From all the jousters I've known, every last one of them has a different opinion on what they like in gauntlets, often including mismatching pieces as in exchange parts. For those who don't like losing the dexterity of a bare/gloved hand, one of the coolest pieces of armour I've had the opportunity to use (in WMA longsword, no less ) was a 12ga stainless manifer. On the lance side, if you aren't going with a heavier gauntlet, wide steel vamplates on the lances seems to be one of the more popular options. As an aside, one of the cool things we found using Jeff's wood lances (as opposed to straight poles with steel vams) was how the grip shape both helped lock the hand in on the way in, but also helped get the hand out of the way if the lance starting going somewhere unplanned after the hit (ask Lloyd to clarify if needed). IMHO, from seeing the folks with messed up hands after their use, using the wooden lances should probably require a steel gauntlet. (Totally aside, Jeff, those lances feel really good in hand and look awesome at the tilt. the real shame is that they can't be shipped as a single solid piece from the socket back, as all the critical failures I've seen happened at the joints.)

Please make some note as to hip/groin protection in the regs. I know it sounds stupid/common sense, but (again, having seen the aftermath). . . look, just ask Rod if you need a diagram. Seriously, though, a leather backed brayette is a good start, I would offer some words of caution regarding tassets (some like them, others see them as a scissors for the unmentionables waiting to happen), and again IMHO, this is somewhere more historical saddles (in design/construction) could be really cool!

Greaves. Functionally, I've examined enough jousters' kits to come to my own conclusion that these are pretty much optional. Actually, some don't like to use them (or like Cass had some specially made) to keep their contact patch with the horse as great as possible. In any case, be very careful how these are made because they can become an unintended spur right quick.

Lance tips. Jeff's rubber cornells are neat to look at, need some tape to stay on well sometimes, do give you a bit more grab (particularly if using a smooth shield or no shield), but from the perspective of "putting on a show" the problem we had with them is that they just don't make that "pop" sound the crowd is looking for in a hit. . . on a silent field, the problem is that the audience is sometimes left wondering if the "joust happened?" Copper is cheap, still got to tape them, gives you the "pop", but can be really hard to see and police off the field between passes. It was always SOP between passes to account for the caps and between shows to count them up again just to make sure you got them all. Also the copper seemed to work better against the gridded granguards - the rubber would just get mangled/tore up without getting a grab. All things considered, given the choice, I really like the look of the cornells but I think I'd pick the copper. I wonder how a hardwood cornell would work. . .

I know there's more to say, but dinner's about an hour past calling. . .

Cheers all!

[Equestria]

Hi, again! Lloyd asked me to check back on this thread. Hope I'm (still?) welcome to play in the sandbox.

Please make some note as to hip/groin protection in the regs.

In my experience, a saddle plate does not require a whole new saddle, or even much modification at all. It is highly effective in preventing the "Rod Walker effect". However, this is not to say that groin injuries do not occur. Even if your tip is well placed on your opponent, sometimes the tip may slip down south. A simple plate can be affixed to the front of the saddle to help with this. I agree that this should be mandatory.