Balsa jousting in the SCA

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:58 pm

FYI on my coronels...

I believe everyone who's had issues with my 1-1/4" coronels purchased them a while ago, so have older versions.

All the issues I've seen discussed here regarding fitting on the balsa and the sound of the strike have been addressed for the last several months of my production. I adjusted the material and design based on their performance in our last 3 WorldJoust Tournaments, and the training leading up to them. We use harder balsa, so the softer coronels just didn't work as well.

I've deepened and tapered the socket, making them stay on the balsa better and much tighter. If you find the 1-1/4" coronels are too big for your lances, I also offer a 1" coronel. Tape is also a good option. We use it all the time.

I now make them only out of 80 durometer material, which is very hard. Just resilient enough to keep them from breaking under normal conditions. The harder material makes them grip better on a shield, and gives them much more sound on impact.

These changes make them perform WAY better than with the older softer material and the shallower socket.

One of the corollary issues that should be considered when judging the sound of the strike is the density of the balsa used (soft stuff won't make as much sound), and the speed of the horses in the course. In our tournaments we ride _fast_ and use harder balsa than is usually seen, and we have some real "crackers". Another issue is the tightness of fit between the balsa and the socket. If there's wobble or play, it can affect many performance characteristics. The balsa should be tight in the socket at both the joint to the lance and the coronel on the tip to function best.

Regarding the mortise/tenon joint on my lances...I have addressed that as well, at least as much as is possible.

My lance maker had been making the mortise deeper than the tenon was long, so excessive force was put on the mortise, sometimes allowing breakage if the joint wasn't glued exactly right, or if a really hard strike was made. I called this to their attention and now they're taking extra care to make the mortise and tenon the same length. This helps a lot.

I should also point out that the structural integrity of the joint in my lances REQUIRES that the joint be glued adequately. This is the responsibility of the customer and I have no control over that. I try to make the best and most economical product I can, but the customer is ultimately responsible for the application of that product, including gluing the joint properly. That said, no lance is indestructible-- in the long run they're a consumable product, and should be thought of in that way.

Fred Piraux · Post by **Fred Piraux** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:23 pm

Hi everyone !

Just a few words to support Sir Alexis and friends' hard work to open SCA to balsa jousting.
I consider IJL interest to help achieve a goal that would probably benefit both organizations... it is worth the sweat. :lol:

IJL Board of Representatives will assist Sir Alexis in the best possible way according to his needs.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:This is the question I was asking:
Have the IJL (or IJA) ever awarded points in a tournament for unhorsings?

Could not speak for IJA.

From 2001 to 2006, Hackaland (the Belgian IJL event) and some french events scored unhorsings. Considering IJL was founded in 2004, the organization affiliated such events for 2 consecutive years.
The reason was the scoring derivated from WCJA and it was before Jeffrey's involvement in the IJL.

After that, the focus of the organizers moved towards a different scoring system for 4 reasons.
- A historical approach (there was not much evidences of +8pts for unhorsings)
- A legal approach (in case of fatality, how do you call it an accident when your rules encourage it)
- A logic reason (despite allowing... it never happened and was pointless to maintain !)
- A universal approach (Most organizers world wide chose not to)

Hackaland now runs :
- Amateur jousting... foam lances
- Sport jousting... balsa lances
- Historical Division... balsa lances + legal headshots + other events

Armour Specs suggestions

May I dare to say, I've read the standards proposed by several posters and it seems to reflect a propension to push one style forward.
Everything sounds good as long as it fits my style ! :lol:

Full plate is not the only way.
The reason other protections are also considered (even if SCA is entitled to chose how thick an strong) is that limiting to full plate would cut off earlier periods... and like SCA, IJL has a very wide scope. Early joust periode addicts deserve to be showed respect as well.

I have said this on numerous forums now ( :roll:

) but jousting safety is not about armour. It is about a system : armour+lance+arena equipment+horses training+...
IJL affiliates will be running jousts in Italy for a large festival next summer : 13th - 14th - 15thC as a timeline for 10 days. Early jousts will be run without tilt rail... late ones with a tilt rail+counterlists "Ã la mode de France" We will have to field different people.

Insurance matters

My group is covered for personal damages as well since 2001.
The contract specifically states "Jousting"' and last spring they called my for a meeting asking to review the amount we pay because they had reconsidered the risks ! I need to say the company had changed name in 2002 from XXX to ZZZ. I got in ZZZ office at 01PM and left at 01:15 with the same contract... After they realized all my incident report form sitll beared the XXX logo ! The reason ? Not a single report filled in years and so many events and safely broken lances. Hope SCA runs the same.

Cheers,
Fred Piraux - IJL Secretary

Bridei · Post by **Bridei** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:51 pm

Dear All,

The more I read the more I want to roll back the clock so I can start jousting at younger than 53. +SIGH+

I agree with the need to keep qualifications and armor standards high. Has there been any discussion on either the legislated authorization process OR an (unwritten) skill level that must be demonstrated for Balsa Jousting Authorization?

Bridei, imminent KEO of Northshield

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:32 pm

I've been following this thread very closely, as I'm working slowly but surely to bring my riding ability up to that of being able to participate in SCA jousting. Might I ask you folks to post pics of your jousting kits so that we have something to work with/compare to visually?

Jonathon Janusz · Post by **Jonathon Janusz** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:18 am

Jeff, thanks for the product update. You're right that the ones I've seen were the early ones. Would be very cool to check out the new ones sometime.

. . . still WISH the lances were solid, though. . .

zachos · Post by **zachos** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:15 am

Jonathon Janusz wrote:. . . still WISH the lances were solid, though. . .

Enter mister Jason Kingsley of tournament stud. First of a reasonable amount of solid lance jousters making an appearance recently.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:44 pm

Jonathon Janusz wrote:Jeff, thanks for the product update. You're right that the ones I've seen were the early ones. Would be very cool to check out the new ones sometime.

. . . still WISH the lances were solid, though. . .

So do I.

If anybody can turn me on to a turner with a lathe that will do 96" that can turn thin spindles, I'll be happy to get 'em made in one piece. That's of course assuming they can do them for a reasonable price. If ya do, PM me. Remember the shipping's going to go up considerably too.

I found a turner locally that could do the length, but you'd have to pay triple my current retail for them.

Eule · Post by **Eule** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:43 am

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:These changes make them perform WAY better than with the older softer material and the shallower socket.

I will agree that the newer coronels are much better than the earlier ones. I've been using the same one on my quintain lance for the past four months with several hundred strikes on a mid weight quintain (3" birch ply faced with 16g mild steel hung on a 4x4 cross bar). A couple of weeks ago the first one broke. If it makes any difference, it was also on a pretty cold day (in the mid 30s) and my student broke it. ;-)

I highly recommend them.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:31 pm

A really great target for a quintain (whether a spinner, a tipper, or one with a spring arm) is an old, SMALL, cast iron skillet. Virtually indestructable and pretty cheap (especially at flea markets or garage sales).

I cannot stress enough that it is vital when you do your quintain runs that you treat it as a pass against another person. Wear full kit and act as if you are really jousting against someone. Also, if you can hit a small target (say 8" across) ten or twenty times consecutively, while in FULL kit, then you are almost ready to ride against another person.

We once built a solid quintain out of a telephone pole, some 6"x6"s, a 4"x4" arm off of which we hung a small, cast iron plate (about 10" acrosss). Once the guys got proficient at hitting this, we took paint and make a 4" diameter circle and when they hit that 10 times, consecutively, in full 16th century armour, they were then allowed to do passes against another person. It sounds tedious, and it is, but all martial art training is continual repetition, this is no different. I have always taught jousting not as a sport or a show, but as a martial art.

Using a quintain is a good way to gauge your ability. I once had a knight (who will remain unnamed) who continually missed low and left. After about six passes, I finally stopped him and asked how many more horses he was planning on killing? He got the point. Have a spotter (best if its your instructor) watch the position of your hits, how YOU handle the hit (yep, folks unhorse themselves all the time), and how you and your horse handle the run.

Eule · Post by **Eule** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:42 pm

Lloyd wrote:A really great target for a quintain (whether a spinner, a tipper, or one with a spring arm) is an old, SMALL, cast iron skillet. Virtually indestructable and pretty cheap (especially at flea markets or garage sales).

What a great idea! How did you attached the skillet? I would think that with that much torque on a short handle that it would not stay on the end of the 4x4 for long unless you had a really stout way of attaching it....hose clamps?

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:45 pm

Eule wrote:
Lloyd wrote:A really great target for a quintain (whether a spinner, a tipper, or one with a spring arm) is an old, SMALL, cast iron skillet. Virtually indestructable and pretty cheap (especially at flea markets or garage sales).

What a great idea! How did you attached the skillet? I would think that with that much torque on a short handle that it would not stay on the end of the 4x4 for long unless you had a really stout way of attaching it....hose clamps?

We used chain. Later, one of my knights (who is also an armourer and blacksmith) made us some 12" round targets out of 1/4" steel with a thick steel loop in back. Just run a chain through it and attach it to the arm. BTW, our quintain didn't pivot, it was a sort of shock quintain (which Rod has the best one!).

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:50 am

For those looking to move up to balsa jousting and plan on using a shield rather than a grande gard, Vitus makes a virtually indestructable shield and Sir Angus (Jeremy O'Neil) does as well. You won't go wrong buying a shield from either of these two worthies

.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:51 am

My
jousting
shields
friggin'
rule.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:08 pm

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:My
jousting
shields
friggin'
rule.

His are the toughest, best made in the biz. I have three of them.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:47 pm

Kinda off topic, but I found the Call to Tournament that I posted to announce the 2007 IJA-USA Sword of Valour Tournament.

A CALL TO TOURNAMENT
On the twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth days of July in the Year of our Lord 1425, being a Saturday and a Sunday, shall the members of the Compainie of the Northerne Sterre tenant the field on the road east of Battle Creek a half days ride from the City.

The Members of the Compainie shall stand ready upon the field to receive those who would meet Their Challenge in defence and honour of their sovereign lord, Arthur, his most beauteous queen, Guinevere, and the Sword of Valour.

Members of the Compainie are seeking out and issuing invitation to worthy Nobles of Renown that will present themselves as Venants at the said Field on the appointed Days.

The members are also issuing invitation to those nobles who might wish to witness the spectacle of the Challenges and take part in the surrounding festivities.

The Master and Sponsor of the Tourney shall be the Compainie's Knight of Honour Stefan. Sir Stefan is currently residing in Serbia, and has consented to travel forth to the Shire of Battle Creek, to stand honour for the Compainie of the Northerne Sterre.

King Arthur, Lord of the Britons, Saxons, Angles, and Celts , has graciously granted safe passage to all Nobles of Good Repute who would travel to this Tourney in answer to this Challenge.

In the Round First of the Tourney all of the Venants will compete in Skill-at-Arms competition upon horseback. The Tenants shall stand Marshall for this competition.

In the Round Second of the Tourney it shall be the place of the Tenants to issue Challenge to the Venants, and will alternate running at the tilt, three courses each. Each Tenant shall Challenge Three Venants. Should there be only one Tenant, they shall issue Challenge to all assembled Venants.

In the Round Third of the Tourney it shall be the place of the Tenants to issue Challenge to the Venants, and will alternate running at the tilt, three courses each. Each Tenant shall Challenge Three Venants that they did not break lances with during the Round Second. Should there be only one Tenant, they shall issue Challenge to all assembled Venants.

Thus ends the First Day of competition. The Tenants, Venants, Nobles, and Guests of the Court retire to Feast to recount the days deeds and accomplishments.

In the Round Fourth of the Tourney all of the Venants will compete in Skill-at-Arms competition upon horseback. The Tenants shall stand Marshall for this competition.

In the Round Fifth of the Tourney it shall be the choice of the Ladies of the Gallery as to which Three Venants meets which Tenant. Should there only be one Tenant, the Ladies of the Gallery will determine the order in which the passes are run.

In the Round Sixth and Final of the Tourney it shall be the place of the Tenants to issue Challenge to those of the Venants whom they wish to meet. Should there only be one Tenant, then they shall determine the order in which the passes are run.

All Combats shall be a'Plaisance, three good passes at the tilt, the Victorious Venant shall be that that accumulates the most wins against the Tenants.

RULES of the Tourney

Each Combatant must provide himself with a Consort, a Lady for whose Honor they do fight.

Each Combatant must provide himself with a Banner bearing a device by which he may be known.

Each Combatant must wear a Surcoat and carry a Shield bearing the same device that he may be known upon the field.

Each Combatant must answer the call of the King of Arms to the Grand Procession, with their Pennons or Banners, their Heralds and Squires, and of greatest import the Lady that they may present Her to the Knight of Honour and to the Principals of the Compainie.

The combats shall be fought for Honor and Renown only. Ransom shall not be allowed.

A King of Arms shall be selected to cry the challenge of each combatant and to cry the progress of the Combats as they occur.

There shall be a Tree of Shields for the crying of Challenge.

The Ladies of the Gallery shall observe the Venants to see who best exhibits the chivalric virtues as understood by the Compainie, and will choose from amongst the challengers those one to earn especial praise.

Upon conclusion of the challenges a closing Ceremony shall formally end the Tourney and all will retire to prepare themselves for the Feast.

All of the Tenants and the Venants shall meet upon the field and swear their adherence to the Rules of the Tourney.

Signed this twenty-second day of May, in the year of our Lord 1425 -

Sir Llwyd Clarke - First Tenant of this tourney.

The tournament ended up just being jousting passes, without the skill-at-arms and I, unfortunately, had to sit. However, Jordan Herron, IJA-Canada President took my place and there was some very nice, solid jousting those two days.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:11 pm

Okay, missed my point:

Here were the planned venans:

Dale Gienow - Canada
Jordon Herron - Canada (took my tenan spot)
Jeremy O'Neil - USA - KSCA
Steve Schindler - USA - SCA
Timothy Sims - USA - SCA
Jason Monarch - USA -SCA (Jason bailed on us :wink:

)
Chris Greenway - USA - SCA
Ray Cornish - USA - SCA

Seems like the Middle will be well represented!

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:19 pm

Jason Monarch - USA -SCA (Jason bailed on us )

Yeah....not having our own horse trailer is getting old for us. We have to rely on rides from everyone else, and we've missed many times where we just couldn't get horse and person to an event.....

That situation doesn't look to improve any time soon now either. We seem to be blowing that wad on another project this year....

So...I'll be begging this year again too.. :cry:

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:23 pm

Leo Medii wrote:
Jason Monarch - USA -SCA (Jason bailed on us )

Yeah....not having our own horse trailer is getting old for us. We have to rely on rides from everyone else, and we've missed many times where we just couldn't get horse and person to an event.....

That situation doesn't look to improve any time soon now either. We seem to be blowing that wad on another project this year....

So...I'll be begging this year again too..

I've been there plenty of times, Brother, don't worry about it.

Really with you guys in the Middle (and especially since you, Steve and Tim have been keeping up with the balsa jousts) will have a decided advantage in any Interkingdom Jousting Tournaments.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:27 pm

Haha...I can't even get to one 30 miles away! GAH!!!

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:32 pm

Leo Medii wrote:Haha...I can't even get to one 30 miles away! GAH!!!

Hell, you can ride that far!

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:22 pm

If possible, can I folks that are interested in balsa jousting in Northshield let me know? I am helping out Bridei and am wondering who we might have to work with.

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:38 pm

Hi all, just trying to get a feel for who is planning on being at Gulf Wars. If you could, please let me know if you would like to balsa joust. If so, could you also let me know if you have all of your gear, including lances and tips, it will help with planning.
Dave/Alexis

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:41 pm

We just bought a bigger farm for our jousting school. Won't be able to make it after all. :sad:

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:40 am

Not able to make Gulf Wars this year. :sad:

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:52 pm

Some questions have come up on lance design, so here are some thoughts:
The question of lances and tips leads to the next step for where we are at in the development of this activity. While there has obviously been jousting going on in a number of venues, we are now seeking to settle on how to make it work in the SCA. The question of lances, and specifically tips, poses the challenge of how we intend to address the costs while providing consistency. My understanding is that balsa jousting has taken place primarily in one of two contexts, first is when a few dedicated folks get together who are willing to subsidize their own costs, or second, it has occurred in the context of a paying show, either at a ren faire or similar standalone event where lances and tips are provided and paid for as a cost of the show.
While I can't say how others have handled things so far, here locally we've just been making the tips ourselves and subsidizing the costs out of pocket. The consistency of the lances and tips have been within 'out in my workshop' tolerances

We've definitely noticed the variances in the balsa density as we get hit

Since the costs have come out of pocket, we have just found the lowest cost source of the balsa and then done the work ourselves to turn the blocks into dowels. Obviously it takes time to do the work, so how much is 'saved' just depends on how much of a premium folks put on their time. As for construction details, they have been based on IJA recommendations, i.e. 1.25" x 36" non-tapered balsa dowel, set in a socket on a tapered lance, tipped with a coronel. We have experimented with a variety of cut and non-cut designs. As for your other questions, locally we haven't used arrets or grapers, although the lances do have the swell forward of the hand for some protection and grip.
Up until this time we have just proceeded on an ad hoc basis as we have had events come up. It remains an open question as to whether local groups will help cover the costs of the tips, and/or lances, to be able to add jousting to their events.
It seems to me the answer going forward will depend on the venues we have for balsa jousting. I believe I asked earlier, if not, I'm asking now, who is interested in taking point on getting balsa going in a given area? The reason I ask is because ideally we want to allow some discretion to the tournament organizers around a recommended lance design. What has been proposed thus far is as follows:
3. Lances
(a) Lances shall consist of a wooden base, a replaceable wooden tip and a coronel.
(b) The wooden base should be shaped to a historical pattern and should measure no greater than 68â€

Fred Piraux · Post by **Fred Piraux** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:37 am

So the question is how do we wish to further specify the lance and/or tip details? If so, is there any kind of consensus on the 'best' way to prepare tips?
Looking forward to hearing everyone's input.

Hi Dave !

This is one of the points where groups usually differ in opinion !!!

Versions I've seen and experienced :
- No cut, solid balsa
- 2 cuts from 1 end 1foot to 1/2length
- 2 cuts from 1 end with different lentgh in cuts
- 2 cuts in the center of the tip with 2 solid ends

I have found out that the cuts do not really affect safety if cut the end is covered with coronel.
Mostly the nature (weight, grain, fiber whatever you call it) of the balsa you use affect the results in chock, aspect and safety.

I guess most groups prepare the tips according to their protective equipment requirements.

My final note would be that I recommend a stronger impact allowing the breaking tip to start deflecting upward than too soft a balsa that will almost consistently result in socket hit... wich I think you try to avoid in SCA context.

I also consider that tips nature is also affected by the other parameters you put in the game like the width of the counterlists if you use any.

Cheers,
Fred

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:35 pm

It seems to me the answer going forward will depend on the venues we have for balsa jousting. I believe I asked earlier, if not, I'm asking now, who is interested in taking point on getting balsa going in a given area?

I volunteer to do whatever I can to get jousting going in the Middle. I also have a full listfield at my farm for use, full games set up, and the equipment to run all contests. I just want to see this GO!

The reason I ask is because ideally we want to allow some discretion to the tournament organizers around a recommended lance design.

I prefer the ones Jeff H makes. They are the bomb, and are easy to use, they are stout, and they are consistant in quality. Also, I do not see the advantage of a copper tip over the rubber ones. We used copper in some shows because it was louder on impact, not something needed in a venue of our own competition. Also, I've taken copper tips to the leg and groin back in the day. Not a happy memory!

Up here, we are currently hoping to get permission to run a balsa demo joust at the following events-

Baron Wars XIII: Maybe It Won't Rain This Year... {Marche of the Marshes} [Perrysburg, OH] May 7-9

Siege of Talonval XI {Shire of Talonval} [Leslie, MI] July 9-11

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:04 am

Jason, are you going to have Steve and Tim join you for those? Let me know if you need any help, I might be able to get away and help out.

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:53 pm

Bit of cross posting from the jousting list

Hi Bev,

Jeff Hedgecock wrote:
> Will competitors generally be expected to provide their own tips? Given the extremely wide range of balsa densities, even amongst the few suppliers of wood in the US, how will you ensure consistency and breakability of tips? How will tips be prepped (cuts, how many, how long, notches, how many...> <snip>

Good questions. Would like to know as well.

Looking like for the next event, Gulf Wars, it will be a matter of bringing out what we have. I'm planning on bringing out around 90 tips. I'll prep them with two cuts, 12" and 18" 90 degrees apart, cut with a band saw (thin kerf) for progressive give.

I was considering handling it thusly here... In our tournaments, we'll provide the tips so they are all prepped the same way. You should ideally be bringing us pre-rounded tips to go back in the pile. This way I know I have enough tips actually ready to go ahead of time.

You ask 10 different people and will get 10 different answers on how they prep a tip. I don't personally care as long as they are all the same at any given event.

The idea is to let the tournament organizer handle it how they want to, within a basic set of standards, i.e. 36" min length, 1 1/4" min diameter (starting, since cuts will reduce this slightly), topped with a non-brittle coronel.

For the foreseeable future, the 'flavor' of the events, including some of the details such as lances and tips are going to be largely dependent on who steps up to organize things. As of now we have pockets of folks, some of who have a bit of experience, some have had some exposure to jousting and some who haven't tried it yet. We are going to start seeing events when these groups begin to coalesce into enough of a groups to put on a tournament.

Lances,

I think there is something in the rules about a shaped lance so no Home Depot sticks.

We tried to get a local woodworking friend to work on a long lathe bed to turn some solid lances. He gave up after many frustrating months.

We use HE lances. Have 6 in use since you started selling them. No issues w the joints yet, though I expect it will happen eventually. We have the means to repair them here. I cannot get them built cheaper(even shipped) and they look awesome.

As for lances, I don't want to stifle creativity. The only 'commercial' source for lances is Jeff as far as I know, and folks seem pretty happy with them, so I would expect that these will be the default lances for a lot of folks. That said, if folks want to try their hand at putting some together, as long as they are okay to the event organizer than that is who is most likely the one who is going to make the call. We aren't talking about so many people or variations in equipment that we shouldn't be able to handle this pretty easily.

I hope folks keep in mind that this is a work in progress. We certainly want to account for the experiences that people have and not re-invent the wheel, at the same time we have to keep in mind that some folks are just getting introduced to this and bring a fresh set of eyes to things.

Regards,
Alexis/Dave

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:27 pm

Dave,

Don't toss out the "Home Depot" lances just yet, especially if you are looking at costs.

Using an 8' straight dowel, with a socket and a 3' length of balsa is a very good lance. It is great for not only keeping costs for tourneys and training and is really good for developing lance control.

Here is a pic of Cassandra and I using these types of lances with taped on steel vamplates/grapers.

Here is Rod Walker using the same without the vamplates

And a really good pic of this type of lance being used by Rod.
[img]http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200904/r362855_1677085.jpg[/img]

For those wondering about tips, I always bought mine from Lone Star Balsa(if you buy in big lots, the cost comes down tremendously and the shipping was always $8 no matter what the size of the order). You get them as 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" planks and by using a router table and a sander table you can either round or make them octagonal and easily crank out a couple of hundred in an afternoon. You can also buy them with differing hardness.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:12 pm

I wish to step up for the Northern Atlantia/Southern East Kingdoms as the local joust dude.
I have 5 horses and 16 acres to play on.
I am in touch with my local Barony and they seem eager and supportive.
Sorry but I cant make Gulf Wars.

Lloyd - FYI: that first pic above is of Michelle Walker.
I know this because I have that armour sitting in my dining room.
Unless Rod wears his wife's armour... :shock:

I agree with Lloyd - why disallow dowels?
Last I checked those shaped lances are expensive.

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:16 pm

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Lloyd - FYI: that first pic above is of Michelle Walker.
I know this because I have that armour sitting in my dining room.
Unless Rod wears his wife's armour... expensive.

LOL!!! Actualy they had two VERY similar armours!

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:53 pm

Personally I'm fairly flexible on the lance design. Would like to hear a bit more from folks as far as the pro's and con's of tapered versus non-tapered when it comes to safety issues. Aesthetically, the tapered lances tend to look more pleasing, at least to my eye, but I understand the cost and accessibility factor. Unless there is an identifiable safety issue, then it seems to make sense to leave that to a given tournament organizer to dictate for their event, if they have that much of a preference.
But, as I said, I'm interested in hearing what folks have to say.
Regards,
Alexis/Dave

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:03 pm

From an asthetic and handeling - not to mention accuracy aspect - the shaped/tapered lances and clearly superior- however- the straight dowels work and are certainly not any more dangerous. The REALLY important thing in my view is to have standard lances for any one joust (tournament)...whatever they are. Obviously this goes for the tips as well - even more so!

Sir Alexis · Post by **Sir Alexis** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:15 pm

I hope folks realize we're really trying to accomplish two goals here. The first is to identify equipment 'that will work', i.e. equipment specifications that address the safety issues presented so that we will be able to balsa joust at SCA events. Above and beyond that, we want to 'do it right' in terms of setting a standard that we will worth all the effort that goes into jousting. The second bar is more subjective than the first, of course. Folks will have the opportunity to put forth their vision of 'how it should be done' by stepping up and organizing an event. Obviously that is already being done in some cases, such as Tournament of the Phoenix. As we hear from more folks, I am hoping that we will reach a consensus so that there are more opportunities to joust for those willing to put a quality kit together coupled with the necessary training.
Regards,
Alexis