Balsa jousting in the SCA

[Andrew McKinnon]

Does anybody have plans, drawings, or better pictures of the quintane in the background here?

http://aiden-groundpounder.smugmug.com/SCA/Gulf-Wars-2010/JoustingHorseys/11602836_pAaTW#817771587_txJGX-S-LB

I want to make a quintane, and this design looks stable but still portable.

thanks,
paul

Not a wooden but made of steel. I often train alone and have designed this to be easily moved by one person. I have a tensioning nut at the top to increase feedback through the lance and help you develop a good punch through.

I use a large and small shield with counterweight for testing various levels of accuracy. The legs fold up and strap to the main post and the top bar pulls off for transportation. Note handles are welded to the main post for ease of transport.

I am well happy with it as a training aid.

[img]http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll288/Blackfather/Quintain/SpinningQuintainPlans.jpg[/img]

[Rod Walker]

There is some very messy and dangerous looking jousting going on there. Lances going straight for horses heads, low hits, punching the lance out in a vain hope of hitting something and some really horrible horse control issues.

I haven't seen any pics of the balsa jousting yet but I hope to God it wasn't the same riders using balsa as those using the foam.

Guys, balsa can injure your horse and you so easily.

Can't quite understand why you would post those photos for the world to see.

[Black Swan Designs]

help you develop a good punch

Please tell me this is a language thing, and you are not suggesting 'punching' with the lance as proper jousting technique.

Gwen

[Rod Walker]

My personal favourite. Sticking yourself in the arse with your own spur whilst trying to launch yourself over the tilt from your own horses back.

The first pic Gwen posted has so much wrong in it. The guy using his horses head to balance his lance on is truly horrible. The guy on the other side of the tilt with his lance heading straight for the other horses head!!!!

I'm sorry guys, this is just not good enough. The thought of you using balsa makes my blood run cold.

[InsaneIrish]

This image was taken while the rider was trying to control his horse after it went all skiddish. Infact I was quite impressed that he was both able to get the horse under control quickly AND he was able to stay in the saddle.

[Fred Piraux]

This image was taken while the rider was trying to control his horse after it went all skiddish.

Thanks for reminding everyone that each picture has a story behind and photo based opinions are equaly subject to misinterpretation.

--

So yes ! There are some things in those pics you don't want to see in a joust.
- some need to be adressed by competitors : personal training technics, equipment...
- some need to be adressed by organizers :
equipment to provide and to request in the future, rules...
- some need to be adressed by the community : what do we learn from this ? What support can we give to improve ?...

--

Fred's
In every joust I look at, even the best shows and comps, there are at least 2-3 pics that will have me bite my tongue... specially pics of myself.

To link some comments with previous post on this thread, I feel the lighter the lances, the more punching. (Though some muscular heroes can still punch a heavy one !) The lighter lances the harder it is to get riders strive for more historical technique because they might have the feel theirs is effective.

I'm still glad to see that some horses were equiped with some sort of head protection despite the use of "soft tips" : good point on participants who did.

Participants SEEMED protected for the type of lance used... still I suppose SCA grid mask and sallet would not be used with balsa joust, the original topic.


My supportive side drives me to acknowledge the efforts and intent to get something started by staff and participants. It sounds like people in charge have taken time to establish contact and inquire to speed up improvements. I'll happily wait for the next event to see how experience is used.

Cheers,
Fred

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

This image was taken while the rider was trying to control his horse after it went all skiddish. Infact I was quite impressed that he was both able to get the horse under control quickly AND he was able to stay in the saddle.

I was looking at those pics last night and was torn between wanting to comment and not looking like a jerk if I did so.

I decided not to comment.

All I can do is act locally to train folks and help raise the overall skill level...project underway. (see link)

[Lloyd]

This image was taken while the rider was trying to control his horse after it went all skiddish. Infact I was quite impressed that he was both able to get the horse under control quickly AND he was able to stay in the saddle.

I was looking at those pics last night and was torn between wanting to comment and not looking like a jerk if I did so.

I decided not to comment.

All I can do is act locally to train folks and help raise the overall skill level...project underway. (see link)

\

You and me both, Tryst. I figured that there was a horse issue in the one pic (Lord knows we have all been there at least once) - but the presentation of the lances was scaring the crap out of me. I am trying to get funds together so that I can go to Baron Wars and help out with the joust there and I have been talking with Bridei about holding sometype of joust training here in Wisconsin, hopefully I can be of some help/service.

[Sir Alexis]

Hi all,
Just a few comments on the jousting at Gulf Wars:
First, the mea culpa, for myself, I didn't have on the rivetted mail shirt I normally wear underneath my breastplate to cover the areas not covered with plate. No excuses, I just forgot to pack it for the war. I realized that introduced a risk that I was willing to accept. Doesn't make it right, but there it is....
Second, on the harnesses, there were a number of them that were not nearly as tight as they should be. In each case we discussed with the riders the shortcomings of each of their kits so that they understood the risks they were imposing on themselves, as well as their opponents for not being as well armed as they should have been. Again, not to offer any excuses, but this is a work in progress. In an ideal world everyone will have a beautifully crafted harness and have trained diligently to prepare themselves and their mounts for the joust. What we are having to do now is to educate folks as to what they are doing, as opposed to what they think they are doing.
In this case, while I would much rather have nothing to criticize, I truly appreciate all the feedback from those who know what they are looking at, because the folks who have been trying to learn the skills are very receptive to input, and the criticism will help them become better jousters. In the mean time, I know most of the folks are working diligently to improve their harnesses to the standards we are shooting for.
While it may not be the prettiest way to get there, it is progress.....
So, please keep providing your input and I will do my best to make sure that it is understood and acted upon by the folks who are wanting to balsa joust in the SCA.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. still working on my own lance presentation.....

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

I truly appreciate all the feedback from those who know what they are looking at, because the folks who have been trying to learn the skills are very receptive to input, and the criticism will help them become better jousters.

If there was video we could really be helpful in analyzing joust passes from long distance. The Free Lancers film every pass any of us make and then we review them at least once with the Teacher. (we call it "doing dailies" like in Hollywood or NFL).

Another thought is that saddles should perhaps be standardized like armour. Aussie saddles for instance let you lock your legs in firmly and that gives an unfair advantage vs a western or english saddle.

Also if it ain't been said yet - saddle plates should be firmly recommended if not mandatory. (right Rod? )

[Paul the Small]

I'm VERY interestd in learning to joust. I'm authorized for SCA games, but not mounted combat or foam jousting. There is nobody in my Kingdom, or mundanely nobody near me, who does any jousting of any kind. Gleann Abhann's equestrian college is pretty much non existant.

I would like to have some guidance on how to start training myself and my horse for this. I don't have any formal training. I've done a lot of trail riding and SCA stuff, but never any dressage or anything like that. I have good balance and know enough not to get myself int too much trouble on a ride.

I have a 5 year old TWH mare. She's about 16hh or so, never really measured her. I trained her dam to do SCA games, but I've never done any jousting. I already plan on making a quintane and other SCA gaming equipment and introducing her to that. She's smart and calm. I took her to Gulf Wars a couple years ago and she did pretty good all things concidered. She was skiddish with the games, but it was her first time off the farm and had no training with the games.

If I need to start a seperate thread to keep things simpler just let me know and I will.

Thanks,
paul

[Eule]

This image was taken while the rider was trying to control his horse after it went all skiddish.

Thanks for reminding everyone that each picture has a story behind and photo based opinions are equaly subject to misinterpretation.

Thanks for that comment Fred, and you are correct.

As the event organizer of this joust, I can shed some light on what you are seeing here.

In the case of the rein jerking (on my horse, no less) "Duchess" had just run away with her rider and he was attempting to regain control. This rider has several years of experience riding with the British Cavalry and has jousted with the English Heritage Society so he is no newb...but we have all had to deal with something like this.

In the case of the spur flanking by the same rider, "Duchess", again, was still pretty hopped up and stopped and threw the rider off balance....too bad that shot was taken at that particular moment. Duchess is a trained Eventing horse and like she does in jumping, got back under him and saved his ass. The rider retired after that as she was obviously done. "Duchess" has been used a number of times in other jousts without these problems so my wife and I are trying to work these issues out with her.

As to the other shot, for some reason "Push", a trained jousting horse, completely stopped at about 3 passes throwing her rider way off balance too. Those shots look really bad but the horses were never struck (in any passes, actually).

These were all foam passes and those lances behave so differently than wood due to the wind resistance...and in these pictures, the prevailing winds were from right to left and about 15 mph that day.

As Dave mentioned, we are certainly open to suggestions and comments so please give us your feedback with the understanding that, as you know, a single photograph doesn't tell the entire story.

Feel free to ask and I'll be happy to tell you the rest of the story.

[Eule]

The first pic Gwen posted has so much wrong in it. The guy using his horses head to balance his lance on is truly horrible. The guy on the other side of the tilt with his lance heading straight for the other horses head!!!!

I'm sorry guys, this is just not good enough. The thought of you using balsa makes my blood run cold.

This rider is not "balancing his lance on the horse's head". This is "Push" stopping mid tilt and throwing her rider forward off balance. The angle is deceiving as well....the other rider's lance ("she" btw) is not actually about to hit the horse's head.

Both this rider and the other in purple and gold, retired because of these incidences...and no horse or rider was hurt.

[Eule]

HE Lances in a lighter version......coming soon.

Also a full length "solid" version, suitable for reenactment uses and quintain, or other uses where a replaceable tip is unnecessary.

Hi Jeffrey,

Re a lighter version. I'm a female, not a particularly stout girl. I was up and practicing with your lances not all that long after a major abdominal surgery which kept me hopitalized for 2 months and in-home nursing for 2 months after. Seriously gang...they aren't that heavy.

Gotta agree with Bev here...once I learned how to properly hold the lance, I could carry the HE lance around all day...thanks for that tip Jeff.

I'm 5' 8", ~160 lbs...and heck, Graham Nixon is, what 5' 4" and ~140 lbs. and I certainly know *he* knows how to use that lance! The only working out I do is raising and lowering the tongue on my gooseneck trailer several times a week...and of course pitching around bags of feed and bales of hay....

[Eule]

Gotta say guys........some of those pics from GW aren't pretty.

Dave, you look ok.

I hope everyone who's attending my Austin clinic next week is prepared to do a LOT of work!

So, no pics of the GW balsa jousting then??

Nope they aren't...but although a picture is worth a thousand words, many of these are not telling the whole story here. I would have preferred that these had not been posted as an example of what the balsa looked like...they are not the same.

Yes, indeed we are! And, although I don't need to tell you this, give us what for if we aren't doing it right! That's why I invited you! So everyone else understands, Jeff will be working with the primary movers on this SCA experiment for two days. His insight is helping us to develop this program properly.

There are a few that I've found and have sent you some privately Jeff. I'll show you the others when you get here as they can provide some valuable feedback. I will say though, the balsa was much better looking than the foam due, in part, to the fact that the two main horses we were having issues with retired. The riders made that decision themselves...we did not have to drive that point home to them...they knew that shouldn't continue.

[Black Swan Designs]

Jeff is currently in Leeds getting ready for the Joust for the Sword of Honour, which starts tomorrow. He may or may not have time and or the focus to address your comments during the tournament, but will doubtless do so afterwards.

Gwen

[Chris G.]

I am trying to get funds together so that I can go to Baron Wars and help out with the joust there...

Lloyd, I would love to have you there. Just sent you a PM regarding it.

[Sir Alexis]

I'm sure there will be much discussion next week

Best of luck to Jeff in the Tournament

Dave/Alexis

[Chris G.]

Another thought is that saddles should perhaps be standardized like armour. Aussie saddles for instance let you lock your legs in firmly and that gives an unfair advantage vs a western or english saddle.

Also if it ain't been said yet - saddle plates should be firmly recommended if not mandatory. (right Rod? )

I can't think of a way to standardize saddles that wouldn't discourage the use of more correct saddles. We would not be able to find enough people with reproduction saddles, so we would have to set the standard to a modern commonly available saddle type. This would hinder the progression to more correct equipment. Would you rather see everyone in aussies, or some people in Aussies and others in a Hedgecock quality reproduction or a Zabello (sp) brand saddle that Eule uses. I'd rather leave the rules open to improvement in historic appearance. Personally, I would prefer an aussie or english saddle over a western if those are the three options.

I also don't see how it is an unfair advantage for an aussie vs a western or english. We all make the choice in the tack we use before we mount up. If I or my opponent choose to use a different type of saddle than the other, there is no unfairness unless we had agreed to something different before the start.

As for saddle plates, I am in agreement with you on that. If made a requirement though, I think a reproduction of a saddle that would not have had plates and was used for the joust should be allowed, as the rider has taken the extra step to assume that risk.

[Eule]

Jeff is currently in Leeds getting ready for the Joust for the Sword of Honour, which starts tomorrow. He may or may not have time and or the focus to address your comments during the tournament, but will doubtless do so afterwards.

Gwen

No problem at all....I've been wishing him luck.

We'll have plenty of time next week to discuss this, and more...hopefully over a snifter or two of Louis XIII.

[Paul the Small]

Not a wooden but made of steel. I often train alone and have designed this to be easily moved by one person. I have a tensioning nut at the top to increase feedback through the lance and help you develop a good punch through.

I use a large and small shield with counterweight for testing various levels of accuracy. The legs fold up and strap to the main post and the top bar pulls off for transportation. Note handles are welded to the main post for ease of transport.

I am well happy with it as a training aid.

[img]http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll288/Blackfather/Quintain/SpinningQuintainPlans.jpg[/img]

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

I can't think of a way to standardize saddles that wouldn't discourage the use of more correct saddles. We would not be able to find enough people with reproduction saddles, so we would have to set the standard to a modern commonly available saddle type. This would hinder the progression to more correct equipment. Would you rather see everyone in aussies, or some people in Aussies and others in a Hedgecock quality reproduction or a Zabello (sp) brand saddle that Eule uses. I'd rather leave the rules open to improvement in historic appearance. Personally, I would prefer an aussie or english saddle over a western if those are the three options.

The contest is most fair when both opponents have the same style of saddles and lances. This is not an unknown concept in-period.
As for reproductions, what I most want to see from those is that they fit the horse properly and thus cause it no harm, as opposed to strict authenticity.
As for authenticity, this is the SCA we are talking about - when they stop using rattan and duct tape and pool noodles and all the other combat anachronisms, then perhaps this can become more of a a priority.

I also don't see how it is an unfair advantage for an aussie vs a western or english.

My humblest apologies, for I don't know how to explain it any better than I already have.

We all make the choice in the tack we use before we mount up. If I or my opponent choose to use a different type of saddle than the other, there is no unfairness unless we had agreed to something different before the start.

I respectfully disagree. The most equitable tournies are those where the equipment is standardized for all participants and then it is skill that decides the day not gear (i.e. who has more $$$ to spend frivolously on high-end jousting equipment).

[Rod Walker]

(i.e. who has more $$$ to spend frivolously on high-end jousting equipment).

So wrong.

Money spent on high-end jousting equipment is never a frivoulous expense. It is you life on the line here. Spend the money on the best you can.

This was an expensive sport back in the day and it still is. Trying to do it on the cheap will get someone hurt.

[Andrew McKinnon]

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

My pleasure. Hope you can get up and running! I am now jousting after three years of training (never stops). Give me yell if you want any newb tips.

[Chris G.]

The contest is most fair when both opponents have the same style of saddles and lances. This is not an unknown concept in-period.
As for reproductions, what I most want to see from those is that they fit the horse properly and thus cause it no harm, as opposed to strict authenticity.
As for authenticity, this is the SCA we are talking about - when they stop using rattan and duct tape and pool noodles and all the other combat anachronisms, then perhaps this can become more of a a priority.

So because other activities in the SCA have anachronisms, we can't choose to raise the bar (or at the least not install a historic accuracy ceiling) on a new activity in the SCA?

I agree that saddle fit to the horse is most important, followed by fit to the rider, only after those two criteria is saddle style important.

I also don't see how it is an unfair advantage for an aussie vs a western or english.

My humblest apologies, for I don't know how to explain it any better than I already have.

I get why you think it is an advantage, I don't get why you think it is an unfair one.

It is also too much of a blanket statement to say an aussie is more secure vs other saddles. I can adjust the knee rolls on my english saddle to provide a similar leg locking effect to the poleys on my aussie. Some riders don't feel secure in anything but a western saddle.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Double Post. Sorry!

Gordon

[Rittmeister Frye]

I fully concur with the saddle triage being first and foremost fitting the horse properly. After that, I believe that it should up to the personal taste of the rider, with the proviso that some form of crotch protection be provided, be it a pommel steel or maille skirt. If someone believes that they have a good enough seat and are secure in a flat saddle (as well as having the proper crotch protection provided for), then they should be able to go for it. I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Personally I'd love to see at least fairly close representations of period saddles being used, but that's a distant third to the fit and rider safety issues. Of course it could be stated that a proper representation of a jousting or war saddle WOULD be very safe and secure to joust in. It just needs to fit your horse.

Cheers!

Gordon


Here's what a proper 16th Century War Saddle looks like, BTW. Note that it is provided with "bolsters" behind the thighs to help provide stability and a firm seat.

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

(i.e. who has more $$$ to spend frivolously on high-end jousting equipment).

So wrong.

Money spent on high-end jousting equipment is never a frivoulous expense. It is you life on the line here. Spend the money on the best you can.

This was an expensive sport back in the day and it still is. Trying to do it on the cheap will get someone hurt.

I misspoke. All jousting in the 21st century is frivolous and therefore so is the expense. Awesome and cool, yet still frivolous. If we all stopped tomorrow the world would still turn and our lives would go on.
(but we digress)

[Eule]

Here's what a proper 16th Century War Saddle looks like, BTW. Note that it is provided with "bolsters" behind the thighs to help provide stability and a firm seat.

Someone mentioned my saddle earlier....it is a Zaldi Camarguesa. I've ridden in various Western saddles, various English saddles, Portuguese (real and imports), Australian stock saddles and custom jousting saddles and this one is *by far* the most comfortable one I've ridden in...for me and for Lucky my Quarter Horse. I got a chance to try one out at Gulf Wars last year all week and it was wonderful. When I got home, I bought my own.

Even on one full on bucking session I didn't come out.

They are comparable in price to many other well made saddles but a lot less expensive than a custom one. They are made to order in Spain and the US distributor is Equus Libris out of Colorado. It took about 3 weeks to get mine and their customer service was magnificent. I highly recommend them.

http://www.equus-libris.com/catalog//ca ... c3eec50432

I believe that Pieter Ellingson, from Norway, has one as well.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Eule;

I've done a fair amount of research on Camargue saddles, but you're the first I've spoken to who actually has one. Glad to hear that you like it. They really look nifty, very 15th Century really, and ought to hold you in pretty well. Like I guess it did.

Thanks for the info!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Black Swan Designs]

In addition to our reproduction saddles, we use Alta Esquela



or Portuguesa



Saddles by Zaldi or Ludomar, and find them excellent for skill at arms, mounted combat and jousting.

Saddles in use:


Saddles in action:




You can find these saddles on Ebay sometimes quite reasonably priced. Jeff just picked up a used Alta Esquela on Ebay in February for half of the new list price.

NOTE: Beware of the cheap Indian import saddles offered inexpensively on Ebay, as they are not made well, do not fit and can be harmful to your horses' back. Zaldi and Ludomar are the name brands you want to look for.

[Eule]

In addition to our reproduction saddles, we use Alta Esquela

NOTE: Beware of the cheap Indian import saddles offered inexpensively on Ebay, as they are not made well, do not fit and can be harmful to your horses' back. Zaldi and Ludomar are the name brands you want to look for.

I've been looking at getting a Zaldi Alta Esquela for dressage and when I finally got to ride in your Ludomar (I think) AE, it was wonderfully comfortable.

I've been joking lately, that like the "one" fruitcake that gets passed around each Christmas, I think there is "one" cheap Indian made "Portuguese" saddle out there. Folks buy it off of eBay, find that it doesn't fit their horse (or anyone else's) then put's it back up on eBay and some other sucker buys it.

....I think I currently still have it...

[Black Swan Designs]

when I finally got to ride in your Ludomar (I think) AE,

Yup, you were in the Alta-



There must be at least 2 cheap Indian saddles in rotation, as one is still in our tack room... .

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

That was one of the Mixta's not the Alta Escuela. Mixta's have a portuguesa pommel and a rounded cantle, like on a Vaquera. Square skirts too. The Alta Escuela has rounded skirts, like a dressage saddle.

[Rittmeister Frye]

I cannot but agree on the Portuguesa saddles. The quality ones are wonderful, and a pretty decent representation of a period saddle. They keep you well seated and are quite comfortable to the rider (at least when the rider is me. ) You just need to find one that fits your horse.

On the other hand, the Indian-made abortions are a horror to both man and horse, with a STEEL framework, rather than the proper wooden tree! (Ask me how I know... I had that one for a while too...) Good grief! So I fully concur: go for a quality make!

Cheers!

Gordon