And thank you for the compliment. I do love my work!
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Grills, a gentlemens conversation :^P
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Morgan
- Archive Member
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Early period, bar grills, and demos.
You know what I'd REALLY like to see? I'd love to see SCAdians who had some costume stuff. If you're a roman persona and so you have to have a bar grill helm to fight in, what's wrong with having a nice decorative helm to wander around it, particularily at Demos? It's really easy to take that spiffy helm off and put on the bar grill helm while explaining, "Unlike my roman ancestors, I have to go to work on Monday."
Just a thought.
You know what I'd REALLY like to see? I'd love to see SCAdians who had some costume stuff. If you're a roman persona and so you have to have a bar grill helm to fight in, what's wrong with having a nice decorative helm to wander around it, particularily at Demos? It's really easy to take that spiffy helm off and put on the bar grill helm while explaining, "Unlike my roman ancestors, I have to go to work on Monday."
Just a thought.Morgan- got it all; Imperial-Gallic Type I Aquincum pattern, in brass (Roman "bronze was actually a blend of copper, tin, and zinc), Lorica Segmentata with accurate pattern hinges and fittings, all sorts of other equipment, and authentic clothing right down to my underwear (when I wear it). I always explain that the grill is an add-on needed for safety, as well as my arm armor and gorget.
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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Harold the Bear
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Norman
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- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
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Vermin -
Yeay !!!
Jagatei and Bojei Temur -
Like I think I've said before - the Italian monks can't be the end-all-be-all.
Here -- I think its Carpini what says that the "wicker" shield was only used on guard duty in camp.
But we have a substantial body of art (for centuries, and all over the Persian-Turkish world) showing them in use for combat.
Just an example of Italian falibility.
More on point -- On the face plate of a mid 13th century European Mongol helmet --
Khan Batu was Kagan of the Kipchak Kaganate (which was to be known as "The Golden Horde") --
I believe there are currently at least five extant "Kipchak" helmets with full-face anthropomorphic face-plates from 12th 13th century
(in contrast - Guremuj... however the heck you spell it - is the only "Viking-style" spectacled helmet found in Scandinavia ...if I remember the claims of the Viking-philes on this board correctly)
...and these face-plates continue for at least 2 more centuries out to the Crimea and Transoxania.
Then (for somewhat later than the mid-13th) is the artistic evidence of numerous miniatures -- where the only way to explain the bevor is if that face behind it is an anthropomorphic visor ...including every so often a clear showing -- when the decapitated head lies outside the helmet - but the helmet still has a face.
...but, if you really love your Bar grill - do not fret --
Michael Gorelik mentioned a "cross-bar nasal" without showing an illustration. Recently I got a book with art by a modern illustrator (alas no source materials discussed) which illustrates just that --
- Picture a normal fixed nasal.
- Now picture an Aventail (or bevor) of lamellar or quilted cloth which starts above the tip of the nose (ie: the tip of the nose and everything below are hidden by the aventail) (the artist shows a rivet connecting aventail and nasal)
- Now, midway between the brow of the helmet and the aventail, put a crossbar.
...the mods for SCA would be to reduce the spacing ...and then hide the rest of your SCA-bars beneath the Aventail.
But, like I said -- I have no idea the sources for these last.
As I have put my philosophy forth before --
The question before you should be "what would a mid thirteenth century Mongol have done if invited to participate in a combat game like the SCA?"
If even one example of a Mongol faceplate exists -- you have the answer to your question which is different than "he'da welded up an SCA-Bargril".
And even if it didn't exist -- before you went and welded an SCA Bargril, you'd have to examine whether the Mongols had some other contraption to achive the same end.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Yeay !!!
Jagatei and Bojei Temur -
Like I think I've said before - the Italian monks can't be the end-all-be-all.
Here -- I think its Carpini what says that the "wicker" shield was only used on guard duty in camp.
But we have a substantial body of art (for centuries, and all over the Persian-Turkish world) showing them in use for combat.
Just an example of Italian falibility.
More on point -- On the face plate of a mid 13th century European Mongol helmet --
Khan Batu was Kagan of the Kipchak Kaganate (which was to be known as "The Golden Horde") --
I believe there are currently at least five extant "Kipchak" helmets with full-face anthropomorphic face-plates from 12th 13th century
(in contrast - Guremuj... however the heck you spell it - is the only "Viking-style" spectacled helmet found in Scandinavia ...if I remember the claims of the Viking-philes on this board correctly)
...and these face-plates continue for at least 2 more centuries out to the Crimea and Transoxania.
Then (for somewhat later than the mid-13th) is the artistic evidence of numerous miniatures -- where the only way to explain the bevor is if that face behind it is an anthropomorphic visor ...including every so often a clear showing -- when the decapitated head lies outside the helmet - but the helmet still has a face.
...but, if you really love your Bar grill - do not fret --
Michael Gorelik mentioned a "cross-bar nasal" without showing an illustration. Recently I got a book with art by a modern illustrator (alas no source materials discussed) which illustrates just that --
- Picture a normal fixed nasal.
- Now picture an Aventail (or bevor) of lamellar or quilted cloth which starts above the tip of the nose (ie: the tip of the nose and everything below are hidden by the aventail) (the artist shows a rivet connecting aventail and nasal)
- Now, midway between the brow of the helmet and the aventail, put a crossbar.
...the mods for SCA would be to reduce the spacing ...and then hide the rest of your SCA-bars beneath the Aventail.
But, like I said -- I have no idea the sources for these last.
As I have put my philosophy forth before --
The question before you should be "what would a mid thirteenth century Mongol have done if invited to participate in a combat game like the SCA?"
If even one example of a Mongol faceplate exists -- you have the answer to your question which is different than "he'da welded up an SCA-Bargril".
And even if it didn't exist -- before you went and welded an SCA Bargril, you'd have to examine whether the Mongols had some other contraption to achive the same end.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Norman, It seems to be a simple difference in philosophy. No matter what the rules say, I don't think a mongol invading europe would ever be invited to a pas. I am not playing "what if I was invited to a grand tournament and had to comply with specific rules" I wear what a mongolian soldier would have worn from description of people who were actually there at that place and time. I can get my armour pretty close to what was described but I still need to make modifications. I need hidden knees, elbows, and vambraces, as well as face protection and a gorget. From what I have seen as far as face protection goes is nothing was used. both bargrills and face plates are inappropriate for my persona from primary sources of that exact place and time. I am not saying a mongol would have welded a bargrill on his helm. I am saying it is a concession some of us have to make to maintain the appearence of the open faced helms of a regular soldier.
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Norman
- Archive Member
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- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
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Jagatei --
Yep -
it's a difference in our philosophies.
I really don't think military combat is a viable interpretation of an SCA event while keeping to personna.
...do you get together a new personna every time you are "killed"??
...and a Mongol invader would not have had a beer with a German either (especially if that German was a Teutonic knight!).
Still,
As mentioned in the previous post, at least five anthropomorphic face plates HAVE been found in your area of interest -- and the theory that they were only used in ceremony has long since been put by the wayside.
...as well as two or three sets of Bazubands -- and even Carpinin describes full arm lamellar defenses (either one useable instead of the hidden arm defenses ...though you'd still need a hidden coup with the full arm lamellar).
Re - the gorget --
this is obviously a matter of safety and personal comfort, but I would think a full lamellar aventail with quilted fabric underneath would be quite sufficient.
...
YMMV
...
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Yep -
it's a difference in our philosophies.
I really don't think military combat is a viable interpretation of an SCA event while keeping to personna.
...do you get together a new personna every time you are "killed"??
...and a Mongol invader would not have had a beer with a German either (especially if that German was a Teutonic knight!).
Still,
As mentioned in the previous post, at least five anthropomorphic face plates HAVE been found in your area of interest -- and the theory that they were only used in ceremony has long since been put by the wayside.
...as well as two or three sets of Bazubands -- and even Carpinin describes full arm lamellar defenses (either one useable instead of the hidden arm defenses ...though you'd still need a hidden coup with the full arm lamellar).
Re - the gorget --
this is obviously a matter of safety and personal comfort, but I would think a full lamellar aventail with quilted fabric underneath would be quite sufficient.
...
YMMV
...
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
I agree with Jagatei- I am not a Roman invited to a Pas. I am a Roman who is REALLY, REALLY lost. 
A Mongol wouldn't have fought in a tourney. Neither would a Samuri. A Roman Miles might, but not for the same reasons as a Knight. We do fight in wars. The SCA has Wars. We don't call them melee tournements (although we have those, too). And once you're past the Celt vs. Cataphracti and Roman vs. Landsknecht bit, sitting around drinking afterwards is no big stretch.
I am portraying a Roman Miles of the mid-1st century CE. I am surrounded by others doing other things. This is the true beauty of the SCA. We are all enjoying ourselves. There's a reason the SCA is so big.
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
A Mongol wouldn't have fought in a tourney. Neither would a Samuri. A Roman Miles might, but not for the same reasons as a Knight. We do fight in wars. The SCA has Wars. We don't call them melee tournements (although we have those, too). And once you're past the Celt vs. Cataphracti and Roman vs. Landsknecht bit, sitting around drinking afterwards is no big stretch.
I am portraying a Roman Miles of the mid-1st century CE. I am surrounded by others doing other things. This is the true beauty of the SCA. We are all enjoying ourselves. There's a reason the SCA is so big.
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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Norman
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- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
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The SCA does not have Wars.
They have Combat Games that are called Wars.
If they were Wars, so called "resurection battles" would make no sense whatsoever, and each kill would lead to the need to redo your personna.
...and hanging out with your pals from the opposing side would be treason (...and certainly selling arms, armour, and supplies to the enemy) -- generally, medievally punished by death (yet another need to get a new personna).
I have spoken to a Russian reenactor whose group plays Wars.
They take slaves, have ambush attacks, raid the camp/village... non-combatants are as much target as combatants... etc.
...and they do create new personas when killed.
That's a War.
Pennsic - no matter the name - is a Combat Game.
...and Mongols, Samurai, Vikings, Romans, etc. all had Combat Games
-- the fact that they were not likely to be invited to a Tourrnament in Medieval Europe is beside the point
-- they were not part of Medieval European society
-- they ARE part of society in the "Thirteen Kingdoms" (or is it 14 by now?) -- and ARE invited to Combat Games that happen in those kingdoms.
This argument was done to death the last time I argued with Owen.
If we really need to do this -- find that thread and bring it back up.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-18-2001).]
They have Combat Games that are called Wars.
If they were Wars, so called "resurection battles" would make no sense whatsoever, and each kill would lead to the need to redo your personna.
...and hanging out with your pals from the opposing side would be treason (...and certainly selling arms, armour, and supplies to the enemy) -- generally, medievally punished by death (yet another need to get a new personna).
I have spoken to a Russian reenactor whose group plays Wars.
They take slaves, have ambush attacks, raid the camp/village... non-combatants are as much target as combatants... etc.
...and they do create new personas when killed.
That's a War.
Pennsic - no matter the name - is a Combat Game.
...and Mongols, Samurai, Vikings, Romans, etc. all had Combat Games
-- the fact that they were not likely to be invited to a Tourrnament in Medieval Europe is beside the point
-- they were not part of Medieval European society
-- they ARE part of society in the "Thirteen Kingdoms" (or is it 14 by now?) -- and ARE invited to Combat Games that happen in those kingdoms.
This argument was done to death the last time I argued with Owen.
If we really need to do this -- find that thread and bring it back up.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-18-2001).]
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Lodhur
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- Location: al-Barran, Outlands, Scadia
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Well friends, I've gone & done it. I went back to bargrill. I know, I know. I hate them too.
This is a close approximation of what I got:
http://www.mandrakearmory.com/Images/Norman1.jpg
but without the nasal, & straight cheek-plates.
I can hear you, "WHY, LODHUR? FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS & ALL THAT IS HOLY, WHY DID YOU DO IT?"
Firstly my closed-face helm, which I assume to have been a spun-top attempt at something resembling a piss-poor Sutton Hoo, was never supposed to have been *mine* anyway. It was a loaner after the fiasco last year when I unknowingly bought a STOLEN helm, & returned it to its original owner.
Secondly, my allergies kicked in this spring (I have never had allergies till I moved here). It has gotten to the point that I hyperventilate every time I fight now. I even tried drilling a four holes in the misshapen face (making it even uglier). I feel like that's such a panty-waist excuse, but there it is.
Lastly, it was $30.
So. I've got it. The question is, what can I do to make it look decent? I mean, its in good condition - no rust but a couple finger prints. I'm honestly not going to have money for a new helm any time soon. Neither for a mail drape, unless some kind soul wants to send me one .
I *do* have lots of leather, & I saw a friend the other day with strips woven into the bars. Not period but the bars weren't as noticeable. I could put a leather drape over the bars, but that's not period either & the defeats excuse #2 above.
So, ideas anyone? Norman? I'm a 7 century goth. My eastern neighbors are lithuanians, bulgars, avars. Could I do a faceplate of some kind in leather? Its a norman-style helm as it is. It should be a spangen or ridge-top anyway. I don't know what to do about that, either. [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] Ho hum.
This is a close approximation of what I got:
http://www.mandrakearmory.com/Images/Norman1.jpg
but without the nasal, & straight cheek-plates.
I can hear you, "WHY, LODHUR? FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS & ALL THAT IS HOLY, WHY DID YOU DO IT?"
Firstly my closed-face helm, which I assume to have been a spun-top attempt at something resembling a piss-poor Sutton Hoo, was never supposed to have been *mine* anyway. It was a loaner after the fiasco last year when I unknowingly bought a STOLEN helm, & returned it to its original owner.
Secondly, my allergies kicked in this spring (I have never had allergies till I moved here). It has gotten to the point that I hyperventilate every time I fight now. I even tried drilling a four holes in the misshapen face (making it even uglier). I feel like that's such a panty-waist excuse, but there it is.
Lastly, it was $30.
So. I've got it. The question is, what can I do to make it look decent? I mean, its in good condition - no rust but a couple finger prints. I'm honestly not going to have money for a new helm any time soon. Neither for a mail drape, unless some kind soul wants to send me one
.I *do* have lots of leather, & I saw a friend the other day with strips woven into the bars. Not period but the bars weren't as noticeable. I could put a leather drape over the bars, but that's not period either & the defeats excuse #2 above.
So, ideas anyone? Norman? I'm a 7 century goth. My eastern neighbors are lithuanians, bulgars, avars. Could I do a faceplate of some kind in leather? Its a norman-style helm as it is. It should be a spangen or ridge-top anyway. I don't know what to do about that, either. [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] Ho hum.
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Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
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In response to Lodhur's request for advice -
So - you just have a one-piece basic bowl with grill attached??
and you're definitely not doing any metal modifications?
...
I think a soft leather aventail is not such a horrible solution -- bring it as far up the face as you can stand
(though really a maile aventail would give you more breathability)
Don't wrap the bars with leather -- you'll just be drawing attention to them.
Cheek pieces were a big thing in the 7th -- make them out of thick enough leather to be rigid. Since they are not structural, you can even attach them on leathers and make them mobile.
There is no evidence I am aware of for anthro face plates in the 7th cent.
...but there are such from all over the Roman Empire earlier, after that is that post-Roman Sutton-Hoo deal (anyone remember the period on the Sutton Hoo helm??), and they reapear in the archaeological record by the 11th cent or so.
...here's an idea --
Make it look like a Lamellar helmet.
Make leather section plates for the bowl (basically, cut wedges - pretend you're making a Spangen top but with alot more sections)
...then normal pattern leather lamellar for an Aventail -- again with as much face coverage as you can stand.
Or make the Lamellar Bowl with cheeck pieces and the basic soft aventail described above.
Yes -- I think this last is your most historically supportable solution.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
So - you just have a one-piece basic bowl with grill attached??
and you're definitely not doing any metal modifications?
...
I think a soft leather aventail is not such a horrible solution -- bring it as far up the face as you can stand
(though really a maile aventail would give you more breathability)
Don't wrap the bars with leather -- you'll just be drawing attention to them.
Cheek pieces were a big thing in the 7th -- make them out of thick enough leather to be rigid. Since they are not structural, you can even attach them on leathers and make them mobile.
There is no evidence I am aware of for anthro face plates in the 7th cent.
...but there are such from all over the Roman Empire earlier, after that is that post-Roman Sutton-Hoo deal (anyone remember the period on the Sutton Hoo helm??), and they reapear in the archaeological record by the 11th cent or so.
...here's an idea --
Make it look like a Lamellar helmet.
Make leather section plates for the bowl (basically, cut wedges - pretend you're making a Spangen top but with alot more sections)
...then normal pattern leather lamellar for an Aventail -- again with as much face coverage as you can stand.
Or make the Lamellar Bowl with cheeck pieces and the basic soft aventail described above.
Yes -- I think this last is your most historically supportable solution.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
-
Lodhur
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- Location: al-Barran, Outlands, Scadia
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Thank you, Norman! I will try & post the results. & its not *quite* a 'bowl'. I mean, (whining) it has a cute little ridge/point. I wonder if a wide, cuir boulli nasal might help, too. The lamellar should look great w/ my scale hauberk, & perhaps relieve me of my OOP gorget.
on the spangens - I was thinking of putting a a 'false ridge' on it to make it look like a ridge-top instead of a one piece with a ridge. I wonder if sucha thing would look believable in leather.
I've got it! Cuir boulli occulars, a la gjermundbu, with downward pointing lamellar drape. The scales will look like rows of teeth! Ha! I wonder, should I carry the lammellar all around the back, or just have that a leather flap?
[This message has been edited by Lodhur (edited 04-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Lodhur (edited 04-18-2001).]
on the spangens - I was thinking of putting a a 'false ridge' on it to make it look like a ridge-top instead of a one piece with a ridge. I wonder if sucha thing would look believable in leather.
I've got it! Cuir boulli occulars, a la gjermundbu, with downward pointing lamellar drape. The scales will look like rows of teeth! Ha! I wonder, should I carry the lammellar all around the back, or just have that a leather flap?
[This message has been edited by Lodhur (edited 04-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Lodhur (edited 04-18-2001).]
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Bojei Temur
- Archive Member
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- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Franklin Park IL USA
<sniff> I don't think I've ever claimed that the monks were the be-all-and-end-all. If I did, I wouldn't be investing all that time and energy into other books and research.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
More on point -- On the face plate of a mid 13th century European Mongol helmet --
Khan Batu was Kagan of the Kipchak Kaganate (which was to be known as "The Golden Horde") --
I believe there are currently at least five extant "Kipchak" helmets with full-face anthropomorphic face-plates from 12th 13th century </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Extant pictures of Batu or his helmet? Huh?
I'm aware of the Kipchak helmets but the earliest I've seen them dated is the late 13th century. I also haven't seen any of the miniatures with a date earlier than that. I tried finding an earlier date for them last summer before I ordered a new helm!
"...but, if you really love your Bar grill - do not fret --"
No but if I have to put an addition on my helmet for safety regs that wouldn't go with that helmet I'll use the one that doesn't give me claustrophobia.
[QUOTE] Recently I got a book with art by a modern illustrator (alas no source materials discussed) [/UNQUOTE]
Don't you just hate that? I think everything should have twice as many footnotes as text I've seen miniatures of helms with the lamellar & quilted cloth above the nose (this is what I was going to do to mine) and I'll check if any show a bar.
BTW, I know I've still got an article to send you. It's actually halfway written...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
More on point -- On the face plate of a mid 13th century European Mongol helmet --
Khan Batu was Kagan of the Kipchak Kaganate (which was to be known as "The Golden Horde") --
I believe there are currently at least five extant "Kipchak" helmets with full-face anthropomorphic face-plates from 12th 13th century </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Extant pictures of Batu or his helmet? Huh?
I'm aware of the Kipchak helmets but the earliest I've seen them dated is the late 13th century. I also haven't seen any of the miniatures with a date earlier than that. I tried finding an earlier date for them last summer before I ordered a new helm!
"...but, if you really love your Bar grill - do not fret --"
No but if I have to put an addition on my helmet for safety regs that wouldn't go with that helmet I'll use the one that doesn't give me claustrophobia.
[QUOTE] Recently I got a book with art by a modern illustrator (alas no source materials discussed) [/UNQUOTE]
Don't you just hate that? I think everything should have twice as many footnotes as text
I've seen miniatures of helms with the lamellar & quilted cloth above the nose (this is what I was going to do to mine) and I'll check if any show a bar.BTW, I know I've still got an article to send you. It's actually halfway written...
I'd be surprised if there weren't at least three views of what the SCA "IS" for every person that participates.
Personally, I think a Roman, faced with our "game", would say, "what do you mean I have to cover my face? I want to see....aww, stupid barbs...gimme that, whatdja call it, catcher's mask. I'm wearin' MY helmet."
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Personally, I think a Roman, faced with our "game", would say, "what do you mean I have to cover my face? I want to see....aww, stupid barbs...gimme that, whatdja call it, catcher's mask. I'm wearin' MY helmet."
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Bojei Temur -
Nope -- no pic of Batu or his helmet.
(I even did a quick web search afore answering)
I was using him merely as a time/place referent to put together the Mongols with the Kipchaks.
His military leader (as I understand) was Subodai -- so it may be that Subodai is the more likely to have the "fuller" helmet.
It was my understanding that the Anthropomorphic face plates start apearing in the record long before the Mongols show up (my recolection is a good two hundred years before).
...in fact, Artamonov uses a photo of an extant Masked helmet and hauberk attributed to the Kipchaks to illustrate the likely armour of the Khazars of about 200 years previous to that time.
You may be thinking of the later Crimean masked helmet.
Sasa is slowly chugging away on an article that will put together everything you ever wanted to know about the Anthropomorphic mask helmet but may have been afraid to ask.
...and all he needs to do to look at some of the masks is go down the street.
...and Dmitry had some daliances with all things pre-Mongol-Kipchak.
But I'll check the books handy at home to see if I can get you a date on at least one specific Anthro mask.
As for what you owe me --
at the very least you can give me basic notes to go with the chicken recipe -- then I can put that online.
That was some great chicken BTW !!!
(went fabulous on a bed of Basmati rice -- me dad swore he was back in Samarkand)
Lodhur -
the only problem with faking a "ridge" helmet with leather is that normally (it is my understanding) that where leather was used -- the frame was still metal - it was the infil that was leather.
If you want to cover the bowl -- go with the full lamellar look.
On the Aventail -- definitely cover the back with it as well. It is more normal to have the back covered as aventail -- and certainly if there is a front there should be a back.
The only thing is -- put in those cheek pieces (narrow ones).
Owen --
You're projecting.
Judging by the extant armour, there must 'ave been plenty of Romans that were perfectly happy wearing full-face masks.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-18-2001).]
Nope -- no pic of Batu or his helmet.
(I even did a quick web search afore answering)
I was using him merely as a time/place referent to put together the Mongols with the Kipchaks.
His military leader (as I understand) was Subodai -- so it may be that Subodai is the more likely to have the "fuller" helmet.
It was my understanding that the Anthropomorphic face plates start apearing in the record long before the Mongols show up (my recolection is a good two hundred years before).
...in fact, Artamonov uses a photo of an extant Masked helmet and hauberk attributed to the Kipchaks to illustrate the likely armour of the Khazars of about 200 years previous to that time.
You may be thinking of the later Crimean masked helmet.
Sasa is slowly chugging away on an article that will put together everything you ever wanted to know about the Anthropomorphic mask helmet but may have been afraid to ask.
...and all he needs to do to look at some of the masks is go down the street.
...and Dmitry had some daliances with all things pre-Mongol-Kipchak.
But I'll check the books handy at home to see if I can get you a date on at least one specific Anthro mask.
As for what you owe me --
at the very least you can give me basic notes to go with the chicken recipe -- then I can put that online.
That was some great chicken BTW !!!
(went fabulous on a bed of Basmati rice -- me dad swore he was back in Samarkand)
Lodhur -
the only problem with faking a "ridge" helmet with leather is that normally (it is my understanding) that where leather was used -- the frame was still metal - it was the infil that was leather.
If you want to cover the bowl -- go with the full lamellar look.
On the Aventail -- definitely cover the back with it as well. It is more normal to have the back covered as aventail -- and certainly if there is a front there should be a back.
The only thing is -- put in those cheek pieces (narrow ones).
Owen --
You're projecting.
Judging by the extant armour, there must 'ave been plenty of Romans that were perfectly happy wearing full-face masks.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-18-2001).]
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Lamellar on the back of the helm,
then cheeks,
then plop some lamellar up front -- especially if you're making occulars - you can hang the front lam off the occulars.
As an analogy -- look at the maile and cheek pieces on the Coopergate helmet.
This is a very common arangement in the period.
the stuff up front would be more of a nod to our modern needs.
...although, there are those instances of the full-face maile aventails.
Maybe I was wrong.
If you're going with an all around aventail forget the cheek pieces.
Somehow, the cheek pieces just set the date better for me -- that's all.
Didn't have time last night to check the anthro mask dates. Will try for it tonight.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
then cheeks,
then plop some lamellar up front -- especially if you're making occulars - you can hang the front lam off the occulars.
As an analogy -- look at the maile and cheek pieces on the Coopergate helmet.
This is a very common arangement in the period.
the stuff up front would be more of a nod to our modern needs.
...although, there are those instances of the full-face maile aventails.
Maybe I was wrong.
If you're going with an all around aventail forget the cheek pieces.
Somehow, the cheek pieces just set the date better for me -- that's all.
Didn't have time last night to check the anthro mask dates. Will try for it tonight.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Personally, I think it would be unrealistic for a group that tries to portray history (like the Red Kaganate, for example) to only use helmets that need very little or no altering to be safe in recreational combat situations. This would send a message that that's ALL that the portrayed people (Rus, Khazars, Mongols, whatever) wore, which is patently false. But then -- this is stemming form the key difference in which Norman and I view such activities...
Dmitriy
P.S. Norman -- from what I have gathered, the mask helms from Lipovcy and Kovali are now considered to be Black Klobuk equipment, not Kipchak. Rotmistrovka is very close (geographically speaking) to Kovali and Lipovcy, so I assume it is also Klobuk -- but it isn't mentioned in most books for some reason.
Cherson, where a mask with an ear identical to the Kovali one was found, was Polovtsy-controlled region, but it's not unreasonable to imagine that a Klobuck would make his way here -- this one could swing either way.
Sasa -- any input?
Dmitriy
P.S. Norman -- from what I have gathered, the mask helms from Lipovcy and Kovali are now considered to be Black Klobuk equipment, not Kipchak. Rotmistrovka is very close (geographically speaking) to Kovali and Lipovcy, so I assume it is also Klobuk -- but it isn't mentioned in most books for some reason.
Cherson, where a mask with an ear identical to the Kovali one was found, was Polovtsy-controlled region, but it's not unreasonable to imagine that a Klobuck would make his way here -- this one could swing either way.
Sasa -- any input?
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Yer right -- it's a key difference in perception.
If you use all closed helmets (or for that matter "no hidden armour") you run the risk of the ignorant coming away with the perception that more armour was used in period than is true.
But, if you use a-historical modifications (like the SCA grill) you run the risk of people coming away with the notion that these are in some way period -- or you wind up with backwards searching for documentation (like that one painting being used to justify all the Bar-gril Bascinets).
Or you get the ridicule that SCA's "duct tape warriors" get -- with little kids making fun of the guys doing the demo.
This is the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket -- ie: using Rattan combat to represent anything and everything your heart can dream.
It is my considered opinion that a full-service historically minded group should offer several forms of combat representation:
If you want to play at sports competition (whether with full force rattan or touch calibration steel weapons) -- you're gonna need to have safety rules and some form of modification. Well then -- make the modification part of the game -- have the safety rules, have all the force you want, and recognise that a Combat Game would be attended by an unrepresentative group in period as well and the armour would be unrepresentative by design (how many Frog-Mouths you think were worn in a war? do you think the percentage of full armour at a Tournament is at all anything like the percentage of full armour at a war?)
If you want to represent a battle field -- then you should have the open-face helmets, the padded or just wool gambesons...
No faking, no modifications -- after all, you don't want the spectators to think the wrong thing about what was worn in battle!
And have a staged battle with either slowed or choreographed fighting with blunt weapons.
...or, if you want a game of full-out war -- then do what the folks near Kiev are doing -
Spend the weekend in a War situation --
No fraternising with your enemy.
Ambushes, raids on the enemy villages and military compounds, enslavement -- as well as the standard battlefield.
And when you're dead -- you're dead. Get a new personna.
And fact is, our whole presentation is unrepresentative of the historic situation --
I know of only one guy who plays a beggar anywhere near consistently -- and even he does archery competitions and has a booth at events selling archery equipment.
How many beggars were there in the average medieval situation (how many of these beggars were archers and merchants at the same time)?
How many people play consistant peasant persons? Craftsmen? How many people just cook and serve as their reenactment experience? How many monks you know? (not "warrior-monks") (how about cloistered ones?)
The vast majority of SCAdians play military nobility. Even the folks that claim to be poor whatever -- in the end result generally wind up playing military nobility.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
The average medieval person would make a more boring presentation (from the point of view of the reenactor) than a modern mid-level management flunky.
That's why medieval literature tends to portray warrior nobility.
You read "Tales of Dede Korkut" -- there's ONE shepheard in that collection - the rest arre all warriors (and even the shepheard is a sort of superhero).
You read the Kiev "Biliny" -- one peasant (and a rich one at that - and a superhero), one merchant (and he's a magician) - the rest are all warrior nobility (though some have roots in the peasant or religious class). Add the Novgorod stories and you get one more merchant -- who is a "super-musician" and has a personal relationship with a Sea god, and a superhuman street brawler.
"Shah Nameh", "Beowulf", the whole Arthurian cycle...
where's the infrastructure that supports all these Superheroes and Noblemen?
The infrastructure is boring. No one's gonna compose a song about Joe the serf who breaks his back in the fields all day and comes home to a supper of gruel.
(except the Skoromohy -- and that would really be something to see - a well played personna based on a Skoromohy Bilina!)
And no one's going to play Joe the serf in a modern historical reenactment either.
The SCA governing documents say that we're all presumed to be nobility.
That's probably the one thing in those documents that I think is correct.
Moreover - lets be real honest - we all tend to presume ourselves something more than the average nobility -- someone that Buyan would sing about rather than someone that Chaucer would make fun of.
All I'm arguing for with all this is a more honest reenactment.
We're not representing the medieval situation. We're representing selected portions of the medieval situation. Let's admit it and be comfortible with it.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
If you use all closed helmets (or for that matter "no hidden armour") you run the risk of the ignorant coming away with the perception that more armour was used in period than is true.
But, if you use a-historical modifications (like the SCA grill) you run the risk of people coming away with the notion that these are in some way period -- or you wind up with backwards searching for documentation (like that one painting being used to justify all the Bar-gril Bascinets).
Or you get the ridicule that SCA's "duct tape warriors" get -- with little kids making fun of the guys doing the demo.
This is the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket -- ie: using Rattan combat to represent anything and everything your heart can dream.
It is my considered opinion that a full-service historically minded group should offer several forms of combat representation:
If you want to play at sports competition (whether with full force rattan or touch calibration steel weapons) -- you're gonna need to have safety rules and some form of modification. Well then -- make the modification part of the game -- have the safety rules, have all the force you want, and recognise that a Combat Game would be attended by an unrepresentative group in period as well and the armour would be unrepresentative by design (how many Frog-Mouths you think were worn in a war? do you think the percentage of full armour at a Tournament is at all anything like the percentage of full armour at a war?)
If you want to represent a battle field -- then you should have the open-face helmets, the padded or just wool gambesons...
No faking, no modifications -- after all, you don't want the spectators to think the wrong thing about what was worn in battle!
And have a staged battle with either slowed or choreographed fighting with blunt weapons.
...or, if you want a game of full-out war -- then do what the folks near Kiev are doing -
Spend the weekend in a War situation --
No fraternising with your enemy.
Ambushes, raids on the enemy villages and military compounds, enslavement -- as well as the standard battlefield.
And when you're dead -- you're dead. Get a new personna.
And fact is, our whole presentation is unrepresentative of the historic situation --
I know of only one guy who plays a beggar anywhere near consistently -- and even he does archery competitions and has a booth at events selling archery equipment.
How many beggars were there in the average medieval situation (how many of these beggars were archers and merchants at the same time)?
How many people play consistant peasant persons? Craftsmen? How many people just cook and serve as their reenactment experience? How many monks you know? (not "warrior-monks") (how about cloistered ones?)
The vast majority of SCAdians play military nobility. Even the folks that claim to be poor whatever -- in the end result generally wind up playing military nobility.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
The average medieval person would make a more boring presentation (from the point of view of the reenactor) than a modern mid-level management flunky.
That's why medieval literature tends to portray warrior nobility.
You read "Tales of Dede Korkut" -- there's ONE shepheard in that collection - the rest arre all warriors (and even the shepheard is a sort of superhero).
You read the Kiev "Biliny" -- one peasant (and a rich one at that - and a superhero), one merchant (and he's a magician) - the rest are all warrior nobility (though some have roots in the peasant or religious class). Add the Novgorod stories and you get one more merchant -- who is a "super-musician" and has a personal relationship with a Sea god, and a superhuman street brawler.
"Shah Nameh", "Beowulf", the whole Arthurian cycle...
where's the infrastructure that supports all these Superheroes and Noblemen?
The infrastructure is boring. No one's gonna compose a song about Joe the serf who breaks his back in the fields all day and comes home to a supper of gruel.
(except the Skoromohy -- and that would really be something to see - a well played personna based on a Skoromohy Bilina!)
And no one's going to play Joe the serf in a modern historical reenactment either.
The SCA governing documents say that we're all presumed to be nobility.
That's probably the one thing in those documents that I think is correct.
Moreover - lets be real honest - we all tend to presume ourselves something more than the average nobility -- someone that Buyan would sing about rather than someone that Chaucer would make fun of.
All I'm arguing for with all this is a more honest reenactment.
We're not representing the medieval situation. We're representing selected portions of the medieval situation. Let's admit it and be comfortible with it.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)