The Armour Archive

B. Amos wrote:NO ONE IS TRYING TO GET RID OF RATTAN!

Even if this matereal does get passed, until we are allowed to get formed ones I will keep using my shapped rattan swords for torneys and wars, they just look and feel better than round rods in my oppinion.

Dude! I am totally aware of this and I think this is a great place for people to report on their findings for new materials here. If something that works exceptionally well is found it will be due to this process. I'm good with that.

Calm down everyone - let the facts speak for themselves.

Totally. I like that these tests, this kind of effort, and sharing of information is happening for this purpose.

Keep up with the testing till we find the best stuff to use if we aren't already.

Has anyone checked this material out yet? Sounds like it could work maybe. No prices listed, but if I get a chance, I will ty to contact them.

http://www.professionalplastics.com/ECOGEHR_C-L

Nissan, or others - do we have any ASTM data for rattan yet? I realize that there is no substitute for "in hand" or "feel/calibration" tests, but the data may help sort out canidate materials before we have to buy and test a bunch of sticks.

A quote from their site:

"ECOGEHR® C-L Biodegradable
ECOGEHR® C-L is comprised of the wood components cellulose, natural fibres, lignin and fatty acids. It possesses many interesting properties that together are very similar to the natural material wood. Consequently, this material is very pleasant to the touch, produces high-quality sound and is easily workable. It also has a high degree of rigidity (tensile module of elasticity up to 4248 MPa). Clearly, its advantages compared with waxed wood lie in the material's homogeneity. Whereas wood displays density variations resulting from growth rings or imperfections (branches), ECOGEHR® C-L provides an isotropic material texture and reproducible properties. This 100% renewable material is largely neutral in terms of its CO2 balance, and like wood it can be disposed of via decomposition or burning.

Due to its composition and its properties similar to those of wood, C-L is used where wood needs to be replaced by a homogeneous material and where traditional plastics do not meet the requirements. The material is popular in applications where sound and feel are of primary importance.
Examples: �� Woodwind instruments �� Drumsticks �� Billiard cues �� The furniture industry �� Display construction �� Fashion jewellery �� Writing implements"

Another interesting item in the ECOGEHR catalog is their WPC-30PP, composed of polypropylene & wood fibers. What an idea, eh? A blend of a material that has shown great promise so far, and one that has been proven by over four decades of field testing!

I understand that proper testing of any material takes a great deal of time and resources, but these do look very interesting. Just for the heck of it, I've requested a quote from the manufacturer. That should let us see how they compare in cost.

From the catalog:
"ECOGEHR WPC-materials are composites based on
standard polymers and wood fibres. Due to the excelent
bond of the wood fibres to the polymer, the materials
have a high mechanical strength. Parts in durable
technical applications are possible with ECOGEHR
WPC. Suitable for open air applications. Antibacterial
grade available. Processability is similar to wood.
ECOGEHR WPC-30PP
Composite based on polypropylene (PP) and wood
fibres. The content of renewable resources is 70%.
ECOGEHR WPC-50PVC
Composite based on polyvinylchloride (PVC-U) and
wood fibres. The content of renewable resources is
about 50%."

Lorccan wrote:... WPC-30PP, composed of polypropylene & wood fibers. What an idea, eh? A blend of a material that has shown great promise so far, and one that has been proven by over four decades of field testing!

While I wouldn't want to discourage you from finding out if this material may also be suitable, counting on the fact that it is blended with wood fibers might somehow impart characteristics similar to rattan might be a stretch. For example, rattan is not a tree, it is a grass. This means it would likely have very different growing behaviors than wood, so the resulting fibers are probably equally different. This doesn't mean that a cellulose blend is unsuitable; only that at the level you're talking, it would be wishful thinking that this fact alone would make it similar to rattan.

Respectfully... AoC

In both of these videos from the same practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7LLC2F424c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92kr-tQOSI

I am using the same polypropylene rod as seen in the Rattan Replacement Test from a few weeks earlier.

None of the fighters felt it hit any different, and it showed no wear at the end of practice.

I may get some more video of that practice up today.

For those who don't know, I'm the guy in the flat top helmet.

carlyle wrote:

Lorccan wrote:... WPC-30PP, composed of polypropylene & wood fibers. What an idea, eh? A blend of a material that has shown great promise so far, and one that has been proven by over four decades of field testing!

While I wouldn't want to discourage you from finding out if this material may also be suitable, counting on the fact that it is blended with wood fibers might somehow impart characteristics similar to rattan might be a stretch. For example, rattan is not a tree, it is a grass. This means it would likely have very different growing behaviors than wood, so the resulting fibers are probably equally different. This doesn't mean that a cellulose blend is unsuitable; only that at the level you're talking, it would be wishful thinking that this fact alone would make it similar to rattan.

Respectfully... AoC

A correction. I too thought, for many years, that rattan was a grass. However, it turns out to be a number of varieties of Palm tree. Weird, climbing, vine like palm tree, but nevertheless, rattan is a common name for multiple different species of climbing palm tree.

Kilkenny wrote:I too thought, for many years, that rattan was a grass. However, it turns out to be a number of varieties of Palm tree. Weird, climbing, vine like palm tree, but nevertheless, rattan is a common name for multiple different species of climbing palm tree.

Ah, well, yet another of my comfortable ignorances fades into oblivion ...

i still suspect that the way rattan grows (in segments, rather than in rings) might produce noticeably different cellulose fibers than you might get from pine or oak. I suppose the only point I'm trying to make is that its probably best to evaluate the material on the basis of its actual characteristics, and not on assumptions we might make because one of the constituent components has a passing relationship to our Old Reliable .

AoC

carlyle wrote:I suppose the only point I'm trying to make is that its probably best to evaluate the material on the basis of its actual characteristics, and not on assumptions we might make because one of the constituent components has a passing relationship to our Old Reliable .

Absolutely! It's fun to speculate, though.

For those who don't know, I'm the guy in the flat top helmet.

2 comments:

1) Fighting in a parking garage is soooooo "Highlander"! You guys really need to blow up a car in your next garage fight video.

2) Love the comic book video editing. How do you do it?

Steve -SoFC- wrote:
1) Fighting in a parking garage is soooooo "Highlander"! You guys really need to blow up a car in your next garage fight video.

2) Love the comic book video editing. How do you do it?

1) It's the best we've got. UVa has a zillion clubs that compete for the sort of indoor space we need, and the SCA is 10 years too junior to get space. Man, it really sucks most of the winter!.

2) I use video editing software that doesn't suck. And came free with my computer. The computer people say costs too much. Oh, and it was EASY to do.

I was just poking fun at the parking garage thing. We fight in an old steel building here when the weather is bad.

The video software is cool. Is it only for Macs?

Steve

Yup, iMovie.

Any chance you could put a string down the middle sorta like a candle or have it molded with it? so if it broke you would not have any peices fly off?

From Knoch

Yes yes it has been a long time

I was kind of thinking along those lines but not so much just to keep pieces from flying off but more like hundreds if not thousands of tiny nylon threads running throughout the length of the material possibly giving it more compression ability and maybe increasing it's durability.

There must be some sort of material like that out there somewhere but honestly wouldn't know if it would work any better or not. Sounds good in theory though. A poly material that mimics the qualities of rattan with a much longer life span. I believe that is the goal here.

Keep up the testing and the search for the best material. When we find it I'll use it and I am sure many others would as well.

Maybe someone could even take it upon themselves to manufacture the perfect material and do fairly well on the financial end of it. That would be cool.

I wonder how many thousands that might cost to create.

An extruded item with a hollow core could easily have a nylon cord run through it, knotted at each end, that would prevent pieces from flying away.

But I think the stuff Bro. Amos used does just fine by itself.

Steve

I know fiberglass work like that which has many long running fibers through it. May be something along those lines not foberglass but a poly fiber synth material? Roll it into a long tube sorta like a news paper. then add a Resign to bond and harden it?

I done have any resourses to do it but just a thought.


From Knoch

P.S there is no financial chance of making mony not with the SCA

Some folks do alright. Yeah my thought as well. A fibrous synthetic material that mimics the density of rattan only hopefully a hell of a lot more durable. If it is going to be found or created most likely it will happen through the efforts of folks on this site. It's great to see different materials being tested on a large scale. It used to take a long long time to have trials like that going on SCA wide. This sharing of info can certainly speed up that process.

I saw one of these at GW. It was in the possession of the SEM, so I assume it was of the "correct" material being discussed.

I did not fight with it. Just swung it, hit myself, tried to bend it with my hands, and talked to people who hit and were hit by it. I did not see the flexibility so many people are talking about at the 50-60 degree GW temp. Not sure if they are looking at different material or if that develops with use or heat or what.

It seems to me, that many people are pushing to go to the hardest "safe" calibration for what we do. I think this material would help us move in this direction. With rattan, some practitioners desiring this high end calibration view it as the result of perfected technique and the height of skill. I think this new material would allow someone of lesser strength, mass, and skill like myself be able to deliver blows out on this far end of the continuum. For that very reason, I do not think it will be able to acquire the support of the SCA fighting community. People are pretty comfortable with Duke X having the ability to break a combatant's arm and trust he won't do it. People seem to be less willing to accept this if the majority of less skilled combatants have such abilities. There just isn't that much trust that the majority is capable of self restraint.

But it sure would be interesting to see how modern materials might effect the calibration and armour (and sport armor) race that exists in the SCA.

Jess wrote: People are pretty comfortable with Duke X having the ability to break a combatant's arm and trust he won't do it. People seem to be less willing to accept this if the majority of less skilled combatants have such abilities. There just isn't that much trust that the majority is capable of self restraint.

There are plenty of huge non-Duke guys capable of throwing so hard with rattan to break someone's arm.

Corby de la Flamme wrote:

Jess wrote: People are pretty comfortable with Duke X having the ability to break a combatant's arm and trust he won't do it. People seem to be less willing to accept this if the majority of less skilled combatants have such abilities. There just isn't that much trust that the majority is capable of self restraint.

There are plenty of huge non-Duke guys capable of throwing so hard with rattan to break someone's arm.

i have not proud of it but i have =[ and those poly swords hit with force that a rhino would cry XD

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... lyethylene

Is this the right stuff?

Thanks,
BW

Well the word is that this stuff is now officialy experimental in Atlantia and may be going experimental Society wide.

I love the smell of progress in the morning, it smells like... victory.

B. Amos wrote:Well the word is that this stuff is now officialy experimental in Atlantia and may be going experimental Society wide.

The best place to get 1.25â€

Your Majesty, to make your reign complete, I invite you to Ostgardr, where you can fight in the Brooklyn Army Terminal, and then take a swim in the East River.

Any new news on these swords?

Has there been any movement on approval for the poly swords?

What are the preliminary results of the experiment?

I bought my polypro from:

Brast Industrial Supply
502-585-5171
Contact: Barry Ellison

I liked the fact that they would cut the 10' minimum purchase into three 40" pieces that were usable and have a lot less waste rather than 5' or 4' pieces like a lot of the suppliers.

Omarad, SEM.

I've been using my poly sword now regularly every week and it still shows no wear. Nor do I notice any difference in blow acceptance when using it.

Corby de la Flamme wrote:I've been using my poly sword now regularly every week and it still shows no wear. Nor do I notice any difference in blow acceptance when using it.

I find the idea of--please excuse the language--an alternative to rattan intriguing. For one thing, having a consistant weapon would probably increase my prowess (at least I hope so). How long have you had the sword?

Mord.

I bought myself a 4-foot stick of PP from McMaster-Carr. It came in last week.

Steve

Great edits in the video.

Corby, will you be at crown this weekend? I'd love to check out the sword.

Testing in Trimaris.

So far it hits like a dead stick IMO and those who I have struck. Will continue into the summer months. Little cold to judge right now as we have dropped into the mid 80's ...... Gosh I hate our winters!!!

Thor.