I want to learn more about Polypropylene swords!

[Keegan Ingrassia]

So...how long is a test period, generally?

More specifically, how long is the test period for this particular material, and how long after that would you estimate its approval and implementation into widespread use? Assuming this is approved for the sake of speculation, of course.

[jester]

It also must be marked with a few red and green stripes per the experimental weapons rules in teh Marshals handbook.

OKay, I'll grant that, but that's hardly "No different from rattan", so again, I ask...

"Leaving aside required experimental markings, is there any reason to require tape on poly weapons?"

Edge marking.

The experimental weapons thing is interesting to me. If I want to experiment with fighting with a baton rather than a fake sword can I spiral wrap my rattan in green and red?

No.
It is not an approved experiment.
Read the handbook. Procedures are outlined there.

Apologies, I was making a joke.

[Sir Omarad]

Omarad, I was curious, has anyone proposed the polyrods as a substitute possibly for CA shafts? I would think that their flexibility would allow for less likelihood of breaking if stepped on. This isn't an attempt at an anti plastic or anti CA argument, I'm truly interested in trying to make CA more realistic while remaining safe.

No one has mentioned it but I think the mass is heavier. Maybe too heavy.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

We have been testing them for about two years in Caid. As soon as time and mundane life permits I will be preparing a new report and making recommendations to the marshal’s office. At that point it will be out of my hands.

We are currently allowing them in tournament so long as your opponent and the MIC are OK with it. I don’t know of anyone having said no in this kingdom. One was used in last crown.

Patrick, Caid

So...how long is a test period, generally?

More specifically, how long is the test period for this particular material, and how long after that would you estimate its approval and implementation into widespread use? Assuming this is approved for the sake of speculation, of course.

[Count Johnathan]

Patrick would you please post the link to exactly what you are using? I purchased a stick from the first link you put up and as I mentioned the stick I used shattered at my first private practice I used it at. First fight actually. Looked like I made contact with a rivet head that caused it to explode at the impact point. 20 someodd dollars for half of one fight was hardly worth it.

How many have you broken so far in your use of them? How many have broken total in your experiments?

I am a bit bothered that the first stick I had shipped to me was almost seemingly a completely different material from the way you guys are talking about them. That does not say much for manufacturing consistancy. Maybe they just didn't care what they shipped to me. I dunno.

Rattan lasts me normally about 4 to 6 weeks worth of heavy practice. I would love to have a material that would not give up so fast even if only for practice.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

This is the place we have been getting the material.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#polypropylene/=9k3w7y

We have broken six that I know of. I broke three of them. Rattan typically lasts me about six weeks. I get six to eight months from the polypropylene. A couple of active knights have gotten up to a year on a stick.

The shortest time to failure I have seen was two months and that was from the same manufacturer that you got the bad piece from. Someone else told be they also had a piece break quickly from that supplier. We subsequently stopped ordering from them.
Patrick

[Steve S.]

What this probably means is not all polypropylene is created equal.

This is not necessarily a show-stopper, because not all stalks of rattan are created equal, either. As long as the failure behaves "nicely", it should not be a problem. Count Jonathan's polypropylene broke pretty cleanly, though it sent a piece flying away. If it had been taped like an actual sword (I don't think it was?) perhaps this would not have happened.

What would be best is to find the actual source of manufacture of McMaster-Carr's PP stock, and buy direct from the manufacture and list that source as an approved source, along with others that may come along.

McMaster-Carr is just a reseller, and they can and do change suppliers for the same item.

One way to find the source is to request an MSDS sheet for the PP tubing. I will do this now.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Sir Patrick:

The link you are providing is generic and not specific.

This is the actual product I purchased:

part number: 8658K56

Product Catalog Page:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/3550/=9k4mw4

Steve

[Steve S.]

This is an interesting chart (see page 2)

http://www.mcmaster.com/library/20100713/8747KAC.pdf

I wonder if polycarbonate might be even better?

Steve

[Sir Omarad]

I got mine from:

Brast Industrial (Louisville KY)
talk to Barry Ellison
Ask for Polypro rod in 1.25" diameter for SCA fighting.
Tell him to cut the 10' piece into 3 pieces @ 40" each.
502-585-5171

We talked at length and he should already know exactly what you want.

Estimate price on a 10' pice cut into 3 @ 40" pieces was $35.00 plus shipping. Shipping was very fair, seemed like actual costs to me.

(plastic prices are a bit turbulent right now so that estimate may vary up and down a small bit)

[Steve S.]

I received the MSDS sheet from McMaster-Carr on their polypropylene rod, part number 8658K56:

Manufacturer
Basell USA Inc.
912 Appleton Road
Elkton, MD 21921-3920

Basell Canada Inc.
339 LaSalle Road
Corunna, Ontario
N0N 1G0
Product Stewardship: 410-996-1600

I am now going to contact the manufacturer for product specifics.

Steve

[Steve S.]

I have contacted someone at LyondellBasell concerning sourcing their polypropylene rod.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Just heard from McMaster-Carr. They have no plans to change suppliers on this polypropylene rod for the forseeable future, but said that if they changed suppliers they would be happy to quote the rod still obtained from LyondellBasell.

Steve

[Steve S.]

I received this response from the manufacturer of the McMaster-Carr rods:

Steven - As you can see from the MSDS, the polypropylene resin is called Pro-fax 7823.

So that is the kind of polypropylene you would specify.

Hope this helps.

Tom Augustyn
Sr. Account Manager
Equistar Chemicals, LP
Office: 770-521-8827
Cell: 770-335-4367
tom.augustyn@lyondellbasell.com


Googling Pro-fax 7823 brings up several pages with the mechanical properties of the resin.

Steve

[Tyr Palenske]

Steve, having been looking at the properties of the rods as you have, would you think a smaller diameter rod with some form of 1 1/4 end could possibly make a safe more realistic substitute to for large tubes we are having to use for CA right now here in Calontir. I'm working on getting experiment permission right now to try some newer things.

[InsaneIrish]

Steve, having been looking at the properties of the rods as you have, would you think a smaller diameter rod with some form of 1 1/4 end could possibly make a safe more realistic substitute to for large tubes we are having to use for CA right now here in Calontir. I'm working on getting experiment permission right now to try some newer things.

The issue is that smaller Dia. shafts ARE the safety issue, not the material.

1.25" dia. shafts is what has been deemed safe in Calontir.

Not to mention the added weight of the rod. It will definately make the arrow MUCH heavier and hit alot harder.

[Steve S.]

In Meridies we allow thin fiberglass shafts with larger blunts on the head and enlarged anti-penetration fletchings on the rear.

[Tyr Palenske]

The issue is that smaller Dia. shafts ARE the safety issue, not the material.

1.25" dia. shafts is what has been deemed safe in Calontir.

Not to mention the added weight of the rod. It will definately make the arrow MUCH heavier and hit alot harder.

I understand they are the issue, but I had thought the issue was because of the possibility of breakage? If these rods are more flexible and less likely to break if stepped upon or upon impact wouldn't they be better than a great big old tube. Calontirs lack of using blunts or other alternatives could be part of what is making CA laughable. Our track history with light weapons has been abysmal too. CA can look more authentic looking and be safe, we just need to find a way.

[Gorm]

Breakage is not the problem with current CA thin shafts.

You practically *can't* break a fiberglass shaft (well...okay...you can, but you gotta *work* at it).

The perceived problem is head/APD displacement leading to catastrophic failure. Different material on the shaft won't fix that among the crowd that considers that an issue.

(The crowd that believes it is an issue that is resolved adequately isn't looking for new materials)

[Tyr Palenske]

I wonder if they could just mold us a solid piece polypropylene arrow?

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

That is the part number.
Patrick

Sir Patrick:

The link you are providing is generic and not specific.

This is the actual product I purchased:

part number: 8658K56

Product Catalog Page:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/3550/=9k4mw4

Steve

[InsaneIrish]

I understand they are the issue, but I had thought the issue was because of the possibility of breakage? If these rods are more flexible and less likely to break if stepped upon or upon impact wouldn't they be better than a great big old tube. Calontirs lack of using blunts or other alternatives could be part of what is making CA laughable. Our track history with light weapons has been abysmal too. CA can look more authentic looking and be safe, we just need to find a way.

The problem is not the breakage. It is the fact that once the arrow leaves the bow, there is no one controling the arrow. Having an arrow shaft that can penetrate a grill/eye slot of a helm is dangerous, no matter the material.

Calontir has decided that 1.25" shafts are safe. Smaller dia. shafts, no matter the material, are the danger.

And, it is not Calontir that makes CA laughable. It is the meriad of other reasons like one shot one kills, nuclear arrows, and snipers that make it laughable.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

It has higher density. The most comon negative comment i have gotten about polypropylene is that it is heavy.

This is an interesting chart (see page 2)

http://www.mcmaster.com/library/20100713/8747KAC.pdf

I wonder if polycarbonate might be even better?

Steve

[Damien381]

I just noticed the thread again and wanted to share my experience with the poly swords from this past lilies that resulted in me picking up a bit of permanent hearing loss.

This involved Sir Johannes and me at Lilies war this past June. Yes this was reported and yes we are all good. The sticks just hit louder than rattan in my opinion and i wanted to pass my data on to the rest of you when making your decision on this.

Here is a copy of the report I submitted this past summer.
-Damien

Both fighters listed here were in complete agreement of the actions listed below and understood they were working with experimental weapons. This report is intended to be used in the evaluation of the polypropylene swords and is in no way intended or states that Sir Johannes or I exhibited anything other than honorable and safe combat practices. The injury sustained in this incident was in my opinion due to the unique characteristics of the polypropylene sword I was struck with and my personal armor. I have zero problem with Sir Johannes' actions in any way. I do not hold Sir Johannes (John Van Hassell) in any way liable or at fault for the injury I sustained.

While warming up for the children's tourney at lilies, I was taking some blows from the experimental poly swords. After feeling a few shots from various people and wanting another data point I asked Sir Johannes to give me a stout shot to the helm with one. We both quickly discussed it and I agreed that I was okay taking the shot to the helm, and he struck me in the left hand side of the helm with a flat snap. The shot was indeed much harder than I would expect from a rattan stick, but the force alone was not as much of an issue as was the much sharper (louder) noise that the poly stick generated when striking my helm as compared to rattan.

In this case when I received the shot to my helm, the resulting impact was VERY loud. Immediately following the shot I was unable to hear very well and decided that I had received enough hits from the poly swords. Johannes made sure I was okay and I assured him I would be fine. I took off my helm and talked to Sir Alexander and His grace Martino about my experience with them and they advised me to file a report regarding my take on the poly swords. I continued to fight the rest of the tourney that evening with no real issue at all.

Over the next days the majority of my hearing returned fairly quickly, however not all of it came back. Later in the week I visited my doctor and confirmed that I had sustained slight noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) in the frequencies greater than 3.5kHz, in that ear. They compared it to the trauma that usually results from exposure to a firecracker or gunshot. This hearing loss in this case was due to the shot I received with the poly stick.

It is my opinion that the polypropylene swords being experimented with currently are unsafe in our current system of fighting. I have fought a great deal in the helm I was wearing to include multiple wars, tons of pickups, practices, tourneys and the like. I've been struck many times in the head, some of them even denting the 12g stainless helm (with mail drape) I was wearing, but I have never experienced a shot as loud as the one I received from the poly sword. I previously had a ringing issue with that helm however the mail drape that I purchased from Johannes corrected that issue years ago. That drape was not enough vibration correction in this case.

On a similar note I feel that the performance of the polypropylene stick is also not superior in any way to rattan. While there may be reports of increased durability, the increased flex seems to make it feel as if you were swinging at someone with a stiff spring. Blows landing in the sweet spot of the stick seemed to have more power to them, while shots struck closer to the hilt resulted in a noticeable vibration in the hand and arm of the person delivering the blow. Also I think it hits a bit louder on helms if I didn't mention that enough earlier.

Count me as 1 against poly swords and 1 for additional hearing protection.

[Steve S.]

I have received loud shots to my helm with rattan also. All it takes is a solid shot on the sheet metal just on the other side of your ear.

It does seem reasonable to me that the polypropylene rod, being more physically solid than rattan, which is made up of fibrous strands, might make a louder sound when it hits a helm.

I can barely hear anything in my helm anyway.

Steve

[Sir Omarad]

The rattan has air pockets in it naturally that reduce noise compared to the polypro.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

In more than two years of testing and thousands of blows exchanged we have not experienced that issue. In fact, fighters have been unable to distinguish a difference between rattan and polypropylene impacts in a blind test during fights. I do know a fighter that had a similar incident with rattan.
Patrick

[Tibbie Croser]

I'm curious about the noise issue with polypropylene swords on steel helms. How does the noise from a round poly sword compare with the noise generated by a flat-bladed steel sword or a flat-bladed nylon waster hitting a steel helmet? Of course the round poly sword is hitting with much more force than the flat-bladed swords. I'm wondering if the noise is a function of the shape and thickness (1.25" round solid rod) as well as the material itself. (I imagine the force level is the greatest factor.) I'm wondering if a flatter poly sword would be better or worse for noise.

Have there been issues of hearing loss with historic martial arts, SCA Cut and Thrust, or steel combat groups (e.g., Adria)?

(I'm currently padding a light steel helm for Cut and Thrust, so I want to know if steel-blade-on-steel-helm ringing is likely to be a problem.)

[olaf haraldson]

No go in the East.

After Experimenting with them at the war and watching many many individuals experiment with them at marshals point the East will NOT be experimenting with them. they are too stiff and heavy and send a bad shock up the forearm after a blow lands.
Padraig
EM East

[Marco-borromei]

I'm curious about the noise issue with polypropylene swords on steel helms. How does the noise from a round poly sword compare with the noise generated by a flat-bladed steel sword or a flat-bladed nylon waster hitting a steel helmet? Of course the round poly sword is hitting with much more force than the flat-bladed swords. I'm wondering if the noise is a function of the shape and thickness (1.25" round solid rod) as well as the material itself. (I imagine the force level is the greatest factor.) I'm wondering if a flatter poly sword would be better or worse for noise.

Have there been issues of hearing loss with historic martial arts, SCA Cut and Thrust, or steel combat groups (e.g., Adria)?

(I'm currently padding a light steel helm for Cut and Thrust, so I want to know if steel-blade-on-steel-helm ringing is likely to be a problem.)

This is NOT scientific data, just personal experience:

I've been wearing varoius design and thickness steel helmets for C&T and WMA use for 8 years. SOME helmet designs are more prone to deafening ringing than others, but I've not noticed that plastic or steel weapons are any more prone than wooden ones to causing the noise.

Solid, one piece helmets are more prone to a deafening ring than multi-part helms [barbuta vs maximilian], likely because the "rattle" between hinged parts dampens some of the energy that would otherwise be the bell ring. Having a tiny bit fo rattle in a hinged visor or cheek plate helps. Maile aventails seem to help as well. Some solid/one piece helms can be dampened simply by glue&rivetting a band of thick leather to the rim

Helms I've worn with little or no padding between the ear and steel have been louder than helms with anything there. Now a days I tend to glue a disk of THICK leather [1/8 to 3/16"] to the inside of the helm directly next to my ear.

Thicker steel helms tend to rimg more than thinner ones... which dent instead. All that energy HAS to go somewhere. There probably isn't much room for choice here in rattan combat, but C&T/WMA can be done with helms as than as 18 ga, which tend to dent instead of deafen.

When it comes to padding/suspension, I've found that natural materials in a stuffed bonnet configuration dampen sound more than modern foam or a single layer leather suspension.

In a particularly bad helmet, I did experiement with shooting ear plugs, meant to block loud noises but allow conversation. They worked OK, but may require more room around your ear and more supportive maddind there to prevent injury from being driven into your ear.

http://tinyurl.com/28bpmhx

[shinyhalo]

Question: So the principle safety concern is that IF the bulky arrow head comes off THEN the small diameter shafts become dangerous?

If that's the core issue then the solution would seem to be a single piece arrowhead + shaft.
Or glued pieces if the glue is proven to be strong enough like a glue that actually melts the plastic and creates a weld?
Or how about buying a solid rod of 1.25 inch polypropylene like the forum thread testing for swords and then whittle away the shaft area so you end up with a single piece of plastic.
Anyway, just some rough ideas.

The issue is that smaller Dia. shafts ARE the safety issue, not the material.

1.25" dia. shafts is what has been deemed safe in Calontir.

Not to mention the added weight of the rod. It will definately make the arrow MUCH heavier and hit alot harder.

I understand they are the issue, but I had thought the issue was because of the possibility of breakage? If these rods are more flexible and less likely to break if stepped upon or upon impact wouldn't they be better than a great big old tube. Calontirs lack of using blunts or other alternatives could be part of what is making CA laughable. Our track history with light weapons has been abysmal too. CA can look more authentic looking and be safe, we just need to find a way.

[Count Johnathan]

Well yes the danger is the shaft itself poking through the blunt or having the blunt or APD come off directly. If you hadn't noticed already these polypro swords do break so an even smaller diameter would most assuredly snap like a twig under the kind of stresses our equipment goes through.

In the "no thin shaft" camp the primary concern is that a thin shaft, no matter what, is inherently more dangerous than the 1&1/4" standard and we feel that even CA should meet the same standards of weapon construction meaning that no part of the weapon should pass through a 7/8" eyeslot even if it fails or breaks during use.

In any case that is nothing about polypro swords so sorry for my portion of the derail.

[B. Amos]

Damien, I am sorry that you had a negative experiance with the poly. I can assure you that this kind of thing can and does happen with rattan.

Two pennsics ago I got pinged in the helm with a rattan sword, not even a hard shot, the ringing in my ear was so bad that I could no longer fight that day, the noise gave me a head ache, nausia, virtigo and it sounded like everyone was under water. It was so bad I asked my wife to drive me to the hospital. I do have slightly less tone in my left ear due to that shot.

I have been using a poly sword and being hit by them for a while now and while they do hit a bit harder, I do not feel that they are unsafe. it actualy saves ware and tare on my body not to have to throw as hard. I wear vary light armor and have not had a desire to add anything due to the poly swords. I very often forget that we are using somthing other than rattan. The poly is still going strong after 4 months of use and my good shaped rattan swords are still good come tourney day.

I have been very happy with this material
+1 for the poly

[Damien381]

Yeah the damage sucks, but we sign waivers for stuff like this and I'm good with it. Also I do agree that this very injury has and may continue to happen with rattan and perfectly legal helms.

There are many variables that can cause this to happen and in this argument the poly sword was only part of that equation that resulted in my injury. The harmonics of the helm, characteristics of the sword and a whole schmere of other items that I am going to label "black magic" for this exercise were all in play. The one key factor is that I am choosing to focus on for this argument is the characteristics of the poly stick. If I would of been struck with a rattan stick I might of had the same experience, but that is not the data at hand in my situation

Poly sticks and rattan sticks make different sounds when hitting metal. Strike a "worst case scenario helm" with a rattan stick vs a poly stick with equal force and the rattan will not produce as sharp or bright (higher frequency) of a sound as the poly will. They sell drumsticks with and without plastic tips for this very characteristic.

The poly sticks are a bit heavy and hit harder overall than rattan. I really don't have a big issue with this but if true, then that characteristic makes it easier for a user to strike a worst case scenario with enough energy to generate dangerous levels of dB. It may have to do with the flexibility, density or some other characteristic(s) of the material, but it seems to be a fact we are agreeing on. I'm not going to discuss the unusual amount of vibration I felt when I short sticked a shot, but it was there.

If we agree that these two items are true and I'm not saying you have to, then it would be somewhat easier to have the issue that I experienced duplicated with poly than with rattan. Now let me be clear again that I very well could of had the same injury with a rattan stick than poly, I just think that the possibility is greater with a poly stick than typical rattan.

We can get rattan, it's not expensive in my opinion and I like the way it works. Poly acts different than rattan in so many ways when you hit something with it that I won't choose to use it.

[Corby de la Flamme]

...
The poly sticks are a bit heavy and hit harder overall than rattan....

I have not found this to be true. They are heavier and hit harder than rattan of the same approximate size, not rattan of the same weight per length.

Now this might seem a quibble, but I like a heavy sword. I rarely shave the sides of rattan swords down to the minimum, and I don't think I could hit someone with reasonable calibration reliably hard enough with an absolute minimum 1.25" perfectly round piece of rattan. Wish I could; I would be a speed demon.

No, what I feel when swinging my poly sword is that its weight and striking power is almost exactly similar to using a 1.5" diameter sword.

And, I'll note for my point: 1.5" rattan swords are perfectly legal.