The Armour Archive

Here is some video of me getting schooled by Duke Sean. I am using a Polypropylene sword that is about 4 months old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qL83Vhr ... re=feedlik

I am still using mine as well, it might be a month or so older than Brices. it has some ugly nicks in it but shows no sign of breaking yet. I have had no issues resulting from its use.

I'm going to shoot some pictures of it after crown, then file down the nicks and retape mine.

Nissan Maxima wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:The experiment is going well and with very few problems.

Really? I can still use my polypro swords in the midrealm?

No, but since the Midrealm ended the experiment there, other Kingdoms have started it without any problems reported.
It has been used in some Kingdoms for years without incident.
Some, who are against the material, blew things way out of proportion.

It's just that you can't determine what material a guy is actually using Omarad. I know you like the idea of plastic sticks and believe me so do I but the reality is some of the sticks shatter almost like glass and others seem to hold up for years. There is simply no way to know what each person is going to get and until there is we have good reason to keep them in the experimental phase until we truly find which material is actually functional and how to be sure that's what people get.

You're the safety guy Sir Omarad. You should be understanding of peoples concerns and should be happy that we police our own yards trying to keep people safe even from themselves.

Edit: Deleted sarcasm from my post because I am actually serious.

I agree with Johnathan on this, there's too much variability in the physical properties of the material and no way to reasonably differentiate between the different variants of the material to ensure that any particular stick is the correct version of the material.

I agree. That is why Silo-flex must has the stamped label visible for inspection. Then again marshals have never taken a closer look at my weapons other then checking thickness. My sword could be oak for all they know or infused with glue. I have had my stained hafts questioned but never anything covered with strapping and duct tape.

Count Johnathan wrote:It's just that you can't determine what material a guy is actually using Omarad. I know you like the idea of plastic sticks and believe me so do I but the reality is some of the sticks shatter almost like glass and others seem to hold up for years. There is simply no way to know what each person is going to get and until there is we have good reason to keep them in the experimental phase until we truly find which material is actually functional and how to be sure that's what people get.

You're the safety guy Sir Omarad. You should be understanding of peoples concerns and should be happy that we police our own yards trying to keep people safe even from themselves.

Edit: Deleted sarcasm from my post because I am actually serious.

The evidence simply does not support you.
Only a very few have "shattered". Hundreds of others are being used for months, nay years without incident.
What about rattan? When the discussions started there were lots of reports of rattan breaking and going off into a crowd.
During the same 10 minute meeting where the midrealm ended their experiment after 2 breakages there was a great story being told about a 6" chunk of rattan landing in a baby carriage at an event...

I have personally seen more flying rattan breakages, about 6, I've had 2 myself over the years, than complaints of "shattered" polypro have been reported. None since the Midrealms.

I am not planning on using it myself but l but I am a fan of a safe alternative to rattan if one is available.
That's why it's still experimental after 4 years. With the greater number of Kingdoms using it we are getting good data.
I am in a holding pattern on any new changes as I get this book rewritten so I am leaving that decision to my successor.

I provided pictorial evidence of my experience with these plastic sticks. That is all the support I need to have an opinion on the matter.

I've seen rattan break and yes I have seen some larger chunks fly a good distance but I have NEVER seen rattan shatter in the manner that these plastics can.

The ACTUAL evidence 100% supports the fact that there is no way to determine what material you might get when you order one of these things.

If you indeed were more confident in these sticks rather than wishful about them you would have already approved them for use SCA wide.

Count Johnathan wrote:I provided pictorial evidence of my experience with these plastic sticks. That is all the support I need to have an opinion on the matter.

I've seen rattan break and yes I have seen some larger chunks fly a good distance but I have NEVER seen rattan shatter in the manner that these plastics can.

The ACTUAL evidence 100% supports the fact that there is no way to determine what material you might get when you order one of these things.

If you indeed were more confident in these sticks rather than wishful about them you would have already approved them for use SCA wide.

First off, do not presume to know why I did or did not do something. You do not have that liberty and my confidence in the material is not the issue here.
Do not confuse facts you do not know with your biased perspective.
Second, Your opinion is just that, yours. You can be 100% sure of something and that's just awesome for you but I do not take 3 isolated incidences as 100% proof of anything.
You cannot know what rattan you get either, quality of steel is questionable after working it, etc...
I KNOW from the report I'm getting that the material is as safe as anything else we do.
The only thing holding back my decision is the scope of it's use.
While many Kingdoms love it and have asked that it be made legal, others haven't gotten around to starting an experiment yet.
I would not want to make something legal until about 2/3 of the Kingdoms had experience with it and have data back on those experiences. I also wouldn't want to make it legal and then hand it off to a new SEM.
I'll let my successor look at the data and make a decision since he will have to manage the situation afterwards.
There is a lot more that goes into these decisions than you know. Lots of consensus building, looking at reports, data, etc.. to make sure that the 19 Kingdoms and 19 Kingdom cultures get something that at least 2/3rds can live with.
Everyone gets upset because they only consider what is good for them personally. I'm not looking at individuals, I look at the whole.

how do these stand up to the cold? Does it stiffen much? At what temperature does it get brittle? I ask because I know my household fights outside through the winter up there in the East and have broken ABS and kydex hidden armor in the cold at events like Birka.For that matter does it soften in the 90+heat? how broad a difference in the materials performance is there from say 30 degrees to 90 degrees? I saw the working temp ranges listed but how did they arrive at those figures were those static loads or was the manufacturer wacking a piece against a 12 gauge helm in a sub zero freezer?

I've been using mine now for a full year in a wide variety of temperatures and don't notice a significant difference in performance from one temp to another.

Corby de la Flamme wrote:I've been using mine now for a full year in a wide variety of temperatures and don't notice a significant difference in performance from one temp to another.

Same here though in the same region of Atlantia. I have purposefully left mine in the snow in temp in the teens and had it out in the sun or in the back of a van in +100 degrees with no issues whatsoever.

Sir Omarad wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:I provided pictorial evidence of my experience with these plastic sticks. That is all the support I need to have an opinion on the matter.

I've seen rattan break and yes I have seen some larger chunks fly a good distance but I have NEVER seen rattan shatter in the manner that these plastics can.

The ACTUAL evidence 100% supports the fact that there is no way to determine what material you might get when you order one of these things.

If you indeed were more confident in these sticks rather than wishful about them you would have already approved them for use SCA wide.

First off, do not presume to know why I did or did not do something. You do not have that liberty and my confidence in the material is not the issue here.
Do not confuse facts you do not know with your biased perspective.
Second, Your opinion is just that, yours. You can be 100% sure of something and that's just awesome for you but I do not take 3 isolated incidences as 100% proof of anything.
You cannot know what rattan you get either, quality of steel is questionable after working it, etc...
I KNOW from the report I'm getting that the material is as safe as anything else we do.
The only thing holding back my decision is the scope of it's use.
While many Kingdoms love it and have asked that it be made legal, others haven't gotten around to starting an experiment yet.
I would not want to make something legal until about 2/3 of the Kingdoms had experience with it and have data back on those experiences. I also wouldn't want to make it legal and then hand it off to a new SEM.
I'll let my successor look at the data and make a decision since he will have to manage the situation afterwards.
There is a lot more that goes into these decisions than you know. Lots of consensus building, looking at reports, data, etc.. to make sure that the 19 Kingdoms and 19 Kingdom cultures get something that at least 2/3rds can live with.
Everyone gets upset because they only consider what is good for them personally. I'm not looking at individuals, I look at the whole.

Alright then. How do you determine what type of plastic stick has been brought to the field? How does any marshal at any event determine that the right material is being used?

What sort of method of field testing have you come up with so that we can be sure?

Thanks.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:I provided pictorial evidence of my experience with these plastic sticks. That is all the support I need to have an opinion on the matter.

I've seen rattan break and yes I have seen some larger chunks fly a good distance but I have NEVER seen rattan shatter in the manner that these plastics can.

The ACTUAL evidence 100% supports the fact that there is no way to determine what material you might get when you order one of these things.

If you indeed were more confident in these sticks rather than wishful about them you would have already approved them for use SCA wide.

First off, do not presume to know why I did or did not do something. You do not have that liberty and my confidence in the material is not the issue here.
Do not confuse facts you do not know with your biased perspective.
Second, Your opinion is just that, yours. You can be 100% sure of something and that's just awesome for you but I do not take 3 isolated incidences as 100% proof of anything.
You cannot know what rattan you get either, quality of steel is questionable after working it, etc...
I KNOW from the report I'm getting that the material is as safe as anything else we do.
The only thing holding back my decision is the scope of it's use.
While many Kingdoms love it and have asked that it be made legal, others haven't gotten around to starting an experiment yet.
I would not want to make something legal until about 2/3 of the Kingdoms had experience with it and have data back on those experiences. I also wouldn't want to make it legal and then hand it off to a new SEM.
I'll let my successor look at the data and make a decision since he will have to manage the situation afterwards.
There is a lot more that goes into these decisions than you know. Lots of consensus building, looking at reports, data, etc.. to make sure that the 19 Kingdoms and 19 Kingdom cultures get something that at least 2/3rds can live with.
Everyone gets upset because they only consider what is good for them personally. I'm not looking at individuals, I look at the whole.

Alright then. How do you determine what type of plastic stick has been brought to the field? How does any marshal at any event determine that the right material is being used?

What sort of method of field testing have you come up with so that we can be sure?

Thanks.

As human beings we do the best we can judging everything that we inspect. How do I know a helmet is made of steel?
2 years ago we caught a tuchuk with an aluminum face on a steel helmet that had been passed for years.
How do I know that rattan is rattan?
Several times in the recent past we've caught other materials being used or altered rattan being used.
We caught them eventually and luckily most of the time it was a error of judgement or understanding on the fighter's part.
But we caught them.

If a different material is being used and when checked it has the same flexibility, consistency, and mechanics as easily as polypropylene, then when we find out someone cheated we will remove their fighting privileges. Possibly permanently.

But the fact is, we catch stuff before people get hurt.

Right, my question is how would you catch this stuff before a more brittle material is used accidentally and shatters on impact sending pointy bits of jagged plastic into a fighters eye?

What has been noted several times so far is that you can inspect this stuff even being familiar with the right material and still get it wrong.

It is also sad that if you found the wrong material being used you might automatically assume the guy was cheating. I didn't mention anyone cheating.

Your Excellency,

Just curious, did you happen to wrap your polypro sword with strapping tape before you used it?

Thanks!

BdeB wrote:Your Excellency,

Just curious, did you happen to wrap your polypro sword with strapping tape before you used it?

Thanks!

We do use strapping tape on them out here (Caid). Most of us use them primarily as practice swords. Given our general trend toward laziness and the long life of the swords, they frequently have little if any tape integrity when they fail. We’ve broken over a dozen of them in the last three+ years and have not seen any safety issues.

multiple layers yes. Problem was it shattered. Fragmented not just a clean break. Now I do understand that what I got was apparently bad material but there was no way for me to know the when I got it or for any marshal to know it when inspecting it. Scroll through the rest of this thread (I know it's long sorry) but you will see the details and pictures of what it did.

First practice. Didn't even get to finish a single practice with it.

I want magic indestructible sticks too. I was bummed when it broke.

No i've read it several times, I was just too lazy to slog back through it all. The one we have had break out here was not wrapped in strapping tape.
Thanks!

Count Johnathan wrote:Right, my question is how would you catch this stuff before a more brittle material is used accidentally and shatters on impact sending pointy bits of jagged plastic into a fighters eye?

What has been noted several times so far is that you can inspect this stuff even being familiar with the right material and still get it wrong.

It is also sad that if you found the wrong material being used you might automatically assume the guy was cheating. I didn't mention anyone cheating.

1. It is not more brittle.
2. Cheating is cheating. It may be intentional, or unintentional but the rules of the list require every fighter to read and understand them prior to receiving an authorization. A failure in honor, conscience, or judgement can still get you in trouble. Various degrees of trouble.

Sir Patrick O'Malley wrote:

BdeB wrote:Your Excellency,

Just curious, did you happen to wrap your polypro sword with strapping tape before you used it?

Thanks!

We do use strapping tape on them out here (Caid). Most of us use them primarily as practice swords. Given our general trend toward laziness and the long life of the swords, they frequently have little if any tape integrity when they fail. We’ve broken over a dozen of them in the last three+ years and have not seen any safety issues.

Patrick, what is the average life expectancy of these weapons?
I ask because you have been running a textbook experiment for about 4 years and have the most data and experience with it.

So what I got (that you said was the right stuff when I asked) that SHATTERED the first time I used it wasn't more brittle than say the stick Corby has been using for years? Thats odd.

And it would be cheating if the marshal... ahem the Society earl marshal... tells you that what you have is correct and it turns out not to be good material?

To refresh your memory...

Sir Omarad wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:so anyway Tecafine P/P ,<--- is that the right stuff or not?

yes.
Use google for gods sake.

I'm not getting you today sir. We must be miscommunicating somehow.

Oh and going back through the thread my memory must be fuzzy or something. I first reported that it went through about 15 fights not just one and that it broke on my opponents head not his leg (though I believe the actual break was from the leg shot and the follow up flat to the head caused it to fly apart)

I must have gotten hit in the head too much over the years. Sorry for the inconsistant reports on how it exactly happened. Kind of embarrasing really.

Count Johnathan wrote:So what I got (that you said was the right stuff when I asked) that SHATTERED the first time I used it wasn't more brittle than say the stick Corby has been using for years? Thats odd.

And it would be cheating if the marshal... ahem the Society earl marshal... tells you that what you have is correct and it turns out not to be good material?

To refresh your memory...

Sir Omarad wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:so anyway Tecafine P/P ,<--- is that the right stuff or not?

yes.
Use google for gods sake.

I'm not getting you today sir. We must be miscommunicating somehow.

Oh and going back through the thread my memory must be fuzzy or something. I first reported that it went through about 15 fights not just one and that it broke on my opponents head not his leg (though I believe the actual break was from the leg shot and the follow up flat to the head caused it to fly apart)

I must have gotten hit in the head too much over the years. Sorry for the inconsistant reports on how it exactly happened. Kind of embarrasing really.

You cannot call an entire product brittle because a few broke easily.
There are hundreds of users using them with few if any problems.
I beat cinder blocks with one for hours at full strength until it finally broke and it was clean.

Count Johnathan wrote:So what I got (that you said was the right stuff when I asked) that SHATTERED the first time I used it wasn't more brittle than say the stick Corby has been using for years? Thats odd.

I think I established in the middle of the last page that you had a different type of Polypro, at least from what I got from McMaster Carr. I think what I have is the same to what Sir Corby and others have. It seems that way from the experiences they have posted. Their rods are either an Impact Copoylmer or Block Copolymer and not a Random Copolymer that you got. Which you agreed was what you got and that it was crap.
By your experience and from what I've read, Random Copolymers do not have the impact resistance characteristics that we desire from the product. As to how will the marshals know which is which, pretty much the same why they do now. I seem to recall Sir Omarad mentioning that if approved the sticks would be sourced from one manufacturer or distributor that can guarantee that all units will have the same characteristics.
I'll say that if approved they would have to be made of an Impact Copolymer. Which seems purpose made for what we would be doing with them.

Count Johnathan wrote:That is interesting and makes sense. What I saw in the BAmos video was definately a different kind of break so I guess not all polypropylene rods are created equal.

So I will correct my previous statement and say Tecafine PP is crap.

Christophe de Frisselle wrote: I seem to recall Sir Omarad mentioning that if approved the sticks would be sourced from one manufacturer or distributor that can guarantee that all units will have the same characteristics.

I didn't say that , the BOD would never let me do that if there are other manufacturers that have the same product.
What I believe I said is that we would have a MSDS spec sheet or the equivalent and all manufacturers would have to meet the standard.

Sorry, I was not saying all of them were brittle. I was saying that some of the plastics are brittle while others (like what Corby has) obviously aren't.

The problem is being unable to visually tell the difference between the two.

We don't just use our vision.
And it's almost impossible to visually check anything.
So, moot point.
What I'm saying is that a few, very few breakages compared to the amount being used does not nix the material.
If you don't think it's safe, don't use it.

If people cheat we will deal with it.

This discussion is getting heated for what seems like no reason. Jonothan would like a way to determine on the field what material a weapon is made out of (we can determine rattan with reasonable certainty by visual means). Omarad feels that there is no concise way to determine that with the plethora of materials available.
We have to acknowledge these concerns, and formulate consequences for guilty parties. Even something as simple as, the guilty fighter cannot use poly swords without showing a marshal documentation of using proper materials. That way even for unintentional transgressions we can show a concise and fair dealing with combatants.
That will help address Jonathans concerns, as well show that the office of earl marshal is clearly addressing all issues being presented.

zippy wrote:This discussion is getting heated for what seems like no reason. Jonothan would like a way to determine on the field what material a weapon is made out of (we can determine rattan with reasonable certainty by visual means). Omarad feels that there is no concise way to determine that with the plethora of materials available.
We have to acknowledge these concerns, and formulate consequences for guilty parties. Even something as simple as, the guilty fighter cannot use poly swords without showing a marshal documentation of using proper materials. That way even for unintentional transgressions we can show a concise and fair dealing with combatants.
That will help address Jonathans concerns, as well show that the office of earl marshal is clearly addressing all issues being presented.

That's the concern I had as well, plastic looks like plastic, who knows what random crap will end up on the field because the owner heard "plastic swords are ok"? Can a marshal say with a reasonable degree of certainty that a plastic sword is the correct material and not say a nylon rod or any of the other random materials that pop up in a google search for 1.25" plastic rod?

chris19d wrote:... Can a marshal say with a reasonable degree of certainty that a plastic sword is the correct material and not say a nylon rod or any of the other random materials that pop up in a google search for 1.25" plastic rod?

To quote an expert...

Not without a mass spectrometer.

I don't believe that we should scrap the experiment. We do need a consistent set of guildlines for identifying acceptable material, both for purchase and on the field. We do need a procedure for a measured response in dealing with transgressions.

Simple, make the marshals know what kind of plastic is acceptable, and upon inspection, ask the fighter -specifically- what kind of plastic it is.

If they don't know, or can't remember, the sword is bounced.

How friggin hard is that?

Having actually used one and having taken the time to really look into the material before allowing the experiment, I can say that the polypro does not act like other plastics.
It has a similar flexibility to rattan, a definnite waxy surfacethat can be marred by a rigid material.
These characteristics make it easy to determine.
If a material behaves so similarly that it can be mistaken for it after checking the surface, and flexibility, then we will find fault when we see it break or rupture and see a trend.
The swords are requiredto have a layer of strapping tape in response to the ..3.. breakages that were causing a stir. That accompanied withthe duct tape outer should limit any issues.
Rattan breaks too, in my opinion just as often and just as dramatically sometimes.
If someone has gotten another material then they are cheating. Either they ordered the wrong material or they got lied to.
Whoever is at fault will be investigated and then the guilty party will be sanctioned to some degree. Period.
This experiment is not ending and is not becoming legal until my successor has a chance to evaluate it.
You have at least a few months to go.
I will save any email that I get in reference to this that contains real data and experiences, not opinions, and I will leave it in a folder on the SEM email server for my successor.


So nyaaa.

thank you