The Armour Archive

Just throwing it out here for those interested that Bruise Juice, aka Zheng Gu Shui, works really well for healing/fading bruises quickly.

http://www.amazon.com/Zheng-Gu-Shui-External-Anagesic/dp/B000MWO3IG

Useful stuff, especially for me in the summer so I can more easily wear shorts and skirts and not get asked by random strangers if my husband beats me.

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Bruise juice works, but arnica montana is pretty close to a miracle cure for bruising. I strongly recommend any one who does anything that gets them bruised on a fairly frequent basis look into it.

we pick up http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=162979&catid=59998&aid=337953&aparam=salonpas_pain_patch_40_&CAWELAID=61233706 from Costco. They work great!

I have to second the arnica. It will even keep a bruise from forming if you apply quickly enough.

actually if you look at the science of what a bruise is you can rid yourself of homeopathic "remedies" that have little to no real medicinal properties in this case.

bruises are caused when your capillaries are damaged by trauma. they get hit, they are damaged, and they rupture and hemorrhage allowing blood to leak out into the surrounding tissue. so, as soon after the damage occurs put ice on it. the science: ice constricts the tissue, slows blood flow, both of which reduce the amount of blood leaking into the surrounding tissue. also, try to avoid things, like aspirin, that will thin your blood for obvious reasons.

after 48 hours your capillaries should be healed/sealed so now your job is to flush the leftover blood from that tissue. apply warm compresses several times a day. the science: the heat causes the tissue and capillaries to expand thus increasing blood flow to the surrounding tissue. this helps to flush that leaked blood from the surrounding tissue and will make the bruise fade as quickly as your body can do it.

topical irritants (like tiger balm, ben-gay, etc) use something like capsaicin to irritate the skin causing increased blood flow which can make sore muscles feel better. on the same token these things can assist in fading a bruise. but why not just use a warm, moist, compress?

and yes, i know that not every voodoo poultice made by grinding roots, nuts, berries, and mud on the side of an ancient indian riverbank frequented by spirits, specters, and apparitions are nonsense. we get plenty of real medicine from plants and roots and flower pistils. but bruising is pretty well understood and there is real science behind how to keep a bruise from becoming worse (ice) and fading much more quickly (heat). not only are these things proven but they are basically free (and wont make you smell funny!)

regards
logan

dukelogan wrote:why not just use a warm, moist, compress?

Hard to do on my rear end/upper thighs at work.

Arnica works best taken internally. No smells or anything.

I leave to the reader the exercise to determine a scientific basis for its effectiveness. Anecdotally, it works, and like nothing else I've ever come across.

arnica is toxic if taken internally. homeopathic "remedies" that are labeled for consumption must be diluted something like 30 times (or maybe it was more, i dont recall) to the point of something like 2 ppm in water. sorry.

edit: homeopathic "remedies" fall back on hahnamanns or hahnemanns prinicple of "dynamization" which suggests that something is diluted to such a point (with fat, water, alcohol, or whatever the original substance is soluable in) that nothing remains. he suggests that the substances "spirit force" will remain in the dilution and that "force" will provide healing powers to the taker.

we just went over some of this in one of my pre-med courses two weeks ago. i will find something more solid thursday in class for you. basically, you are consuming water and inert powder.

regards
logan

Kilkenny wrote:Arnica works best taken internally. No smells or anything.

I leave to the reader the exercise to determine a scientific basis for its effectiveness. Anecdotally, it works, and like nothing else I've ever come across.

depends on where you work i guess. but yeah..... that might be abit tricky. good point!

regards
logan

Rana wrote:

dukelogan wrote:why not just use a warm, moist, compress?

Hard to do on my rear end/upper thighs at work.

vicks vapor rub might be cheaper and contains more camphor and menthol than what is listed in those patches. both are skin irritants with very minor analgesic properties. not sure about the smell though, that vicks stuff is a bit potent! anyway, if you like it you might try the vicks if its cheaper and not too strong.

regards
logan

banzaimf wrote:we pick up http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=162979&catid=59998&aid=337953&aparam=salonpas_pain_patch_40_&CAWELAID=61233706 from Costco. They work great!

Arnica gels are not, strictly speaking, homeopathic. (they actually contain arnica). Logan is correct in his summation of homeopathic "theory", and equally correct in his derision, but not in his classification.

Arnica does, in fact, contain anti-inflammatory agents. They're toxic in high doses, but i can't find LD50 data or other metrics of what "high" means in the 2 minutes i care to use googling. According to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9837931, we have no particular idea why the active compound works - no big surprise.

Two studies of note:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12174058 : arnica is no better than a control in prevention or treatment of laser-induced facial brusing (2002)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17318618 : in a double-blind study, no significant difference was found between use of arnica and ibuprofen for short-term symptomatic relief of hand osteoarthritis.

My personal opinion: not harmful, possibly helpful, at worst a waste of a latte. Doesn't stink up the place, and having a tube around is a reminder to cool down and stretch out after practice - which probably helps more'n anything anyway.

Cut a 3/8 " thick slice of an onion, gloriously taped with duct tape over night will pull near all the blood out of a bruise. It will still hurt, healing time will increase 10 fold.

A few years ago I was struck viciously in the back with a great mace. It left a bruise the size of your hand with fingers out stretched. A shallow impression with dark black bruising, tapering out lighter to the edges. I taped a slab of onion on its center & by the next morning it looked like a solar eclipse in blood! Almost no bruise left under where the onion was, still black as could be on the rest.

I always wondered if that could have saved some high school badgering over hickies, but probably would have gotten it for smelling like an onion.

dukelogan wrote:vicks vapor rub might be cheaper and contains more camphor and menthol than what is listed in those patches. both are skin irritants with very minor analgesic properties. not sure about the smell though, that vicks stuff is a bit potent! anyway, if you like it you might try the vicks if its cheaper and not too strong.

regards
logan

banzaimf wrote:we pick up http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=162979&catid=59998&aid=337953&aparam=salonpas_pain_patch_40_&CAWELAID=61233706 from Costco. They work great!

Thanks for the tip. The big bonus with the patches is that they are flat and fit in the glove box of the car (for practice), the toiletries kit (for events) and are (most importantly) always available due to their packability.

ps, the costco packs are much cheaper. I just couldn't find a link.

dukelogan wrote:arnica is toxic if taken internally. homeopathic "remedies" that are labeled for consumption must be diluted something like 30 times (or maybe it was more, i dont recall) to the point of something like 2 ppm in water. sorry.

edit: homeopathic "remedies" fall back on hahnamanns or hahnemanns prinicple of "dynamization" which suggests that something is diluted to such a point (with fat, water, alcohol, or whatever the original substance is soluable in) that nothing remains. he suggests that the substances "spirit force" will remain in the dilution and that "force" will provide healing powers to the taker.

we just went over some of this in one of my pre-med courses two weeks ago. i will find something more solid thursday in class for you. basically, you are consuming water and inert powder.

regards
logan

Kilkenny wrote:Arnica works best taken internally. No smells or anything.

I leave to the reader the exercise to determine a scientific basis for its effectiveness. Anecdotally, it works, and like nothing else I've ever come across.

Yeah.
I'm still here, I've used the stuff for years. It definitely makes a difference.

Guess it's another one of those things that the medical industry rejects without understanding.

no, the medical industry fully understands homeopathic "remedies". the ones that are legit are refined and used to produce treatments. the arnica that you are injesting is diluted to such a point until there is no evidence of a single molecule of the original substance left. thats how these things are produced.

it is hahnemanns (inventor of homeopathy) prinicple that dictates that these things are diluted to that point and that the "spirit force" of the substance will remain in the water/alcohol/fat and it is that "force" that will "cure" you. what remains, in the case of arnica for consumption, is water and this "spirit force". hahnemann also professed for many years, later changing his mind, that all human diseases came about from consuming coffee. he is credited for some pretty inovative things as well as some really bizzare ideas as well.

taking arnica refined for consumption isnt toxic since there is no actual arnica in it, well except for that "spirit force" which i couldnt imagine someone could overdose on. but there is some very real evidence of placebos having an effect on some people and there is nothing at all wrong with that so long as its understood what is going on.

regards
logan

Kilkenny wrote:

dukelogan wrote:arnica is toxic if taken internally. homeopathic "remedies" that are labeled for consumption must be diluted something like 30 times (or maybe it was more, i dont recall) to the point of something like 2 ppm in water. sorry.

edit: homeopathic "remedies" fall back on hahnamanns or hahnemanns prinicple of "dynamization" which suggests that something is diluted to such a point (with fat, water, alcohol, or whatever the original substance is soluable in) that nothing remains. he suggests that the substances "spirit force" will remain in the dilution and that "force" will provide healing powers to the taker.

we just went over some of this in one of my pre-med courses two weeks ago. i will find something more solid thursday in class for you. basically, you are consuming water and inert powder.

regards
logan

Kilkenny wrote:Arnica works best taken internally. No smells or anything.

I leave to the reader the exercise to determine a scientific basis for its effectiveness. Anecdotally, it works, and like nothing else I've ever come across.

Yeah.
I'm still here, I've used the stuff for years. It definitely makes a difference.

Guess it's another one of those things that the medical industry rejects without understanding.

dukelogan wrote:
....taking arnica refined for consumption isnt toxic since there is no actual arnica in it...

Brilliant, and true as well. I would caution about taking stuff you are not sure about or that you know from anecdotal evidence.

I used to work with the supplement industry and the claims that are made for some products are borderline illegal (sometimes fully illegal) in their claims to cure or treat "conditions".

Not that I trust the drug companies that much more, since they push some of their stuff on TV like dealers on street corners, but at least there are specific testing that has to be done.

I am not saying that some stuff works or does not work, only that a little knowledge can be dangerous when dealing with stuff you ingest or use as a medicine. I know it may be not period, but I'll stick with modern medicine when in doubt.

As for the bruising, ice, rest and massage to increased blood flow to the area may be better than any chemical or herbal treatment. And yes, local analgesics like Ben Gay help a lot.

Glaukos the Athenian

A 30X "homeopathic" dilution is equivalent to the original volume diluted in a volume of water 15 times larger than the earth.

Apparently they sell things up to 1500X dilution. Anything over ~100X results in a final concentration of 1 molecule of the "active ingredient" dissolved in a volume of water greater than the estimated size of the universe (in number of molecules).

-Derian.

Duke Logan has the right of it.

Origins of homeopathy and why it "worked"

Without going into too much depth, basically, hundreds of years ago doctors used to kill patients. They did so unknowingly using methods that would make us cringe today. They would use toxic elements and other very bad things under the idea that it was helpful to the patients.

Enter homeopathy. Homeopathy was developed as an alternative to "modern" medicine of the late 18th century. It was based on using the very illness to cure the illness... diluted many, many times over. So diluted that there was literally zero trace of the original "active" ingredient. Imagine taking one drop from an eye dropper and putting it into a pool. THEN, after mixing, taking a drop from that pool and putting IT into a different pool. Repeat a few more times. No trace of the original left.

So why did it "work"?

Well, as stated earlier, doctors were killing their patients unknowingly. The homeopathic healers would use their "medicine" to cure the patient. And the patients, in many cases, got better. Does that mean the homeopathic solution worked? Hell no! It means that the patient got better on their own and didn't have a doctor kill them!

Medical science has come a long way in the last 1000 years, don't you think?

An interesting story

James Randi is a leader in the skeptic community. In front of congress, he took 6 boxes of sleeping pills while giving a presentation. A deliberate overdose. The box said do not take more than 1 a day or you can suffer major medical problems, including death. So, as he was giving his presentation he kept looking at his watch making comments such as, "I hope I finish soon as I may be dead soon." Obviously nonsense as there was no risk as the pill was effectively nothing offering no value or detriment of any kind.

The most comical part of the story is that the "active" ingredient in the sleeping pill was CAFFEINE!

Test

Double blind testing is key. When tested properly, many natural solutions have shown promise. THESE are almost ALWAYS documented in medical journals and other peer reviewed literature because THEY work.

Trust me, medical science WANTS these things to work. They WANT things to cure and help their patients. What they are unwilling to do is say that things work based purely on conjecture and without proper testing.

The value of placebo

If you believe somethings helps you, then all the power to you. The power of placebo is well documented (double blind studies). Heck, many of the "new age" healing facilities are actually very helpful, as they force people to relax and calm themselves, which in and of itself is quite beneficial to feeling better (also documented). Yoga is stretching, which is excellent for your body. Meditation is a variation of calming exercises that Psychologists and Psychiatrists use. Good stuff.

That said, there is no documented evidence that diluting something to the 1000th degree in water has any value.

Some links and resources

How to Think About Weird Things is a book and serves as a great primer to anyone looking to better understand stuff
http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-About-W ... 0767400135

http://www.quackwatch.com/
http://www.randi.org/site/
http://www.skeptic.com/

Michael Shermer has a lot of great books on the subject and critical thinking in general. Any book by Richard Dawkins. Penn and Teller's tv show Bullshit!. If you want more material, drop me a PM and I am happy to share.

dragging things back on topic: I (at least) and the OP were discussing external application of Herb-du-Jour Potpourri - which is, at least, not homeopathic as it isn't serially diluted.

See my above post for conflicting evidence as to their effectiveness and mechanism.

Duke Logan is square on with what I have always thought about "bruise balms".

Bruises are caused by blood under your skin that has leaked out of your ruptured blood vessels.

There is no magic juice you can rub on your skin that will a) stop the bleeding and b) cause the leaded blood to go away.

Cold can help staunch the bleeding, by decreasing circulation, and heat can help increase circulation which can help dissipate the leaked blood.

That's about the size of it.

Steve

Honestly, guys.

I know how bruises work. I understand the mechanism adequately.

I don't know how arnica works - and neither do any of you who are dismissing it.

I do know that it has worked for me, over the course of quite a few years, very well.

So, you know, you guys follow whatever regimen works for you, but please don't tell me that what works for me doesn't...

See, when you do that, you're just calling me a liar.
I really don't like that. You wouldn't either.

Sorry, Gavin, anecdotes are not science.

Steve

jesus gavin, i wasnt calling you a liar. i said that what you are taking is nothing more than a placebo and, further, that there is plenty of evidence that placebos do work on some folks. if youre happy with taking it then, by all means, keep doing so. i was just trying to educate you to the fact that you are injesting inert filler material and not any actual arnica. im sorry if that upsets you and that wasnt my intent. facts are facts and i only offered them as an attempt to educate, not to call anyone out.

regards
logan

Kilkenny wrote:Honestly, guys.

I know how bruises work. I understand the mechanism adequately.

I don't know how arnica works - and neither do any of you who are dismissing it.

I do know that it has worked for me, over the course of quite a few years, very well.

So, you know, you guys follow whatever regimen works for you, but please don't tell me that what works for me doesn't...

See, when you do that, you're just calling me a liar.
I really don't like that. You wouldn't either.

To borrow a quote or two:

If it sounds stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Or... is the fact it apparently works for folks that big a deal?



.

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Ingrid, your workout sounds ROCKIN!

Glad the stinky Chinese stuff helps you as much as it does me.