The Armour Archive

Qwertypolk wrote:
I accept there will be rhinos out there, but I just don't think they're as common as people think they are. They're also not breaking the rules, whereas, by hitting them with excessive force, you are.

How do you figure that ? Not disputing that they're uncommon, but explain to me, please, how someone who is intentionally choosing to ignore blows they know are of sufficient force that they should acknowledge them (that's what it means to "rhino") is not breaking the rules of the lists ?

Animal Weretiger wrote:Gavin Kilkenny wrote :
"Ratty - We armour our heads too, to protect our brains from injury. Our torsos to protect all the internal organs. Elbows and knees to protect them. All can be injured in ways that endanger someone.

It makes picking out any one particular body part and making it the subject of extra special fuss seem a bit peculiar.

And the insults ? Off target. They don't make any point that you want to make. Not any more from you than from Animal.

Debate doesn't involve insults. Persuasion doesn't involve insults. Insults only lead to hard feelings and people locking in to their positions and refusing to consider what the insulter has to say.

It's destructive, not constructive."

gavin let me assure you. You dont have to instruct Ratty. She's got a college degree in English and knows full well what she's saying and intended to say and exactly how she intended to say it to express her point of view. I daresay she[s smarter than you are.
Read her posts and my posts again and this time look at it from the point of view of contempt for someone expressing a proclivity for base cowardly acts. Whatever your opinion of those acts might be, this is ours. You dont have to like it or agree with it but dont presume that either one of us doesnt know exactly how to express ourselves. Such acts in our opinion deserve contempt and people that perform such acts deserve the same contempt. Its a public forum and you're just as welcome to your opinion whatever.

whatever.

I'll just presume from here on out that when you (either of you) start throwing language like feces, you've got nothing I need or want to hear.

RatangeI wrote:Gavin.....

I'm not as think as you dumb I am.

I made no comments that implied anything about your intelligence.

But, as I wrote to Animal, I'll just ignore in the future when either of you starts with the name calling

Kilkenny wrote:

Qwertypolk wrote:
I accept there will be rhinos out there, but I just don't think they're as common as people think they are. They're also not breaking the rules, whereas, by hitting them with excessive force, you are.

How do you figure that ? Not disputing that they're uncommon, but explain to me, please, how someone who is intentionally choosing to ignore blows they know are of sufficient force that they should acknowledge them (that's what it means to "rhino") is not breaking the rules of the lists ?

The rules state that the receiver of the blow is to judge whether or not the shot was good, according to their view of whether it would damage the wearer underneath the armour(assuming the combatant is wearing maille):
(Quoted from the Drachenwald Marshal's handbook)
A. Judging the effects of blows is left to the honor of the combatant being struck by the weapon,
unless he or she relinquishes this responsibility, with the exception of clear violations of the
Rules of the Lists or the Conventions of Combat. Effectiveness of a blow may not be judged
by the opposing combatant, the Marshal, or other observers.

As for my point on it breaking a rule to then use excessive force as punishment:
(Quoted from the Drachenwald Marshal's handbook)
1. Striking an opponent with excessive force is forbidden.
3. Each fighter shall maintain control over his or her temper at all times.

I have since been told, however (through PM), that some kingdoms do not have this as a rule.


Just to reinforce my point though, I am not condoning people who simply shrug off blows, despite knowing that shots were good. I'm simply arguing that they're probably not all that common

But how can the blows be considered "excessive" if the receiver won't even admit they are valid blows?

That, to me, is the problem with your stance.

If the opponent refuses to take anything less than an "11", then "11" can't be considered excessive.

Animal, RatengeI... actually, I think I can see how the shot to the junk is cowardly...

I was going to defend it, and attack your communication methods (ie. your insults) in the same post... But then it dawned on me that both actions bore striking similarities...

The thrust I described is, after all, the physical equivalent of your insults: it's an inelegant solution designed to shock results out of the target without actually having any substance or finesse.... It is an atatck delivered when technique, style and skill have failed.

Thank you for the lesson.

I was on the third rank, defending a line. I was not shooting. I had my sword and shield. Directly to my front, an enemy spearman was engaging the front rank. At the start of the engagement, a friendly spearman was engaging the enemy spearman. The friendly struck a glancing blow that was not accepted. No problem: this was a good call. The enemy then struck a glancing blow that was not accepted. Once again, no problem. A hold was called to pull the dead. The two discussed this and they were in agreement on both calls. On lay on, the enemy struck a good blow and killed the friendly. It was accepted. A shieldman then stepped up and was defeated. Another shieldman stepped up and was defeated. Then I stepped up. I was stationary. The spearman was stationary. He hit my sheild a few times, then stuck my grill with far excessive force. I took the blow, but called to him that he needed to back off. I don't believe he heard me. Later, I spoke with him. He, of course, apologized. But he then justified his actions by saying that people were not accepting his blows and that he was 'dialing up' so people would accept them. Recall, I observed the ENTIRE engagement up to the point of my death. Every single good blow was accepted. Now, to give this individual his due I later found out that he had reduced his force back to good control after I had spoken to him.

The above story was told by the local baron after coming home from Estrella this year, the blow in question caused him to receive several cuts on his eyebrow, his grill sits at least 1.5" from his face and his helmet is well padded. We also had instances of one person receiving a concussion from a fiber spear pole that flattened part of his helm and bar grill, and another fighter being knocked unconscious, though the cause is unknown.

When is "Dialing up" going to do something like spears banned from Melee? Its one thing to say "Hit him harder" and to even teach it, but where does the line stop? How many fighters have the control to execute a dial up safely?

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Animal, RatengeI... actually, I think I can see how the shot to the junk is cowardly...

I was going to defend it, and attack your communication methods (ie. your insults) in the same post... But then it dawned on me that both actions bore striking similarities...

The thrust I described is, after all, the physical equivalent of your insults: it's an inelegant solution designed to shock results out of the target without actually having any substance or finesse.... It is an atatck delivered when technique, style and skill have failed.

Thank you for the lesson.

I disagree. The insults had no finesse but if they in fact had ho substance you wouldnt have changed your opinion. As for cowardly, ask anyone on here that knows me I'd have no problems saying such to your face either in or out of armor. The tone of the posts as well as the content of the posts were pitched to convey contempt for both the act and the actor.
About as subtle as a punch in the mouth but just as effective it seems.

It's my experience so far that a lot of people pick up spears with no fuggin clue just how much force they are cranking off when they hit someone.

Qwertypolk wrote:As for my point on it breaking a rule to then use excessive force as punishment:
(Quoted from the Drachenwald Marshal's handbook)
1. Striking an opponent with excessive force is forbidden.
3. Each fighter shall maintain control over his or her temper at all times.

I have since been told, however (through PM), that some kingdoms do not have this as a rule.

I bet that they do, just not officially, since that is a Society rule.

B. Behavior on the Field
1. Striking an opponent with excessive force is forbidden.

Edit for poor wording B1 is a Society rule, and not having it is not optional. It might get ignored, but it still exists.

Interesting. I have never checked since it was a marshal who told me at least once, but have been told several times that there is no excessive force rule in Trimaris, never noticed it abused either.
Due to the nature of the kingdoms though excesive is very subjective. I have had blood drawn from a hit on my shoulder blade from an east kingdom guy who told me that it was a normal powered hit for them. I have fought in Atlantia and got hit in the shin so hard I limped the next couple days after the beer wore off and yes I had armor on my shins(and yes he was very apologetic right after hitting me there). When I fight in some kingdoms though I dont wear armor(besides minimums) because I know that what is normal for me is excessive for most(not all) of them.
So is there an excessive for society or is it based on the kingdom? How do you measure such?
I agree with the whole spear thing, there are waaay too many wanna-be's at wars who pick up those and polearms(more so spears) one or two times a year(maybe) and due to such have very little experience with them. Above 'excessive' force sword swingers, these types are truly the most dangerous people on the field. (dangerous in a bad way, not a cool way). And to tie it in with the OT, these are the types most likely to get annoyed and lose control against either a rhino hide or someone who honestly didnt feel the first hit, lose his cool, and start clocking whoever. That or they try to compensate lack of skill and experience with heavy power or speed.

Pretty much the only time you will actually hear "excessive" bandied about is if you are routinely breaking people, with no prior reason to do so, on every fight.

There _IS_ hitting too hard.

I had a guy complain that I'd hit him on the point of the shoulder way too hard (GS) and given him a bone-bruise.

I was a bit flabergasted for 2 reasons.

1. The point of the shoulder is pretty much bone, there isnt a whole lot of meat there to bruise, so if it does bruise, the odds are...

2. I died, he did not.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:I had a guy complain that I'd hit him on the point of the shoulder way too hard (GS) and given him a bone-bruise.

I was a bit flabergasted for 2 reasons.

1. The point of the shoulder is pretty much bone, there isnt a whole lot of meat there to bruise, so if it does bruise, the odds are...

2. I died, he did not.

Wait, I was with you there up until 2...the dude said you hit him too hard with your greatsword on his unarmored shoulder

But didn't take the shot? Was it flat or what?

I have people bitch and whine all the time when I hit them in unarmored spots with my GS but at least they take the shot.

Was kind of wondering about that too. An excessive hit is still a good hit regardless how much it hurts.

Dauyd wrote:But how can the blows be considered "excessive" if the receiver won't even admit they are valid blows?

That, to me, is the problem with your stance.

If the opponent refuses to take anything less than an "11", then "11" can't be considered excessive.

Light
Light
Light
Excessive! You don't have to hit me that hard...

Yeah, that's a problem

Kenric, East

Sometimes it's just too much focus. This weekend in a melee at a practice for fun, I was super focused on trying to put the thrusting tip of my pollaxe into someone's grill, and they were beating me on the head...and I really didn't think about their shots. It was just some noise while I was trying to have some fun.

I was in my light suit, so it's not the armour. Most of the armour is leather and 22 ga steel. The helmet is a standard stainless bargrilled bascinet. The problem in this case was me.

It took about four of his blows before I sort of thought, "Hummmm...he's hitting me in the head...hang on, I'm supposed to say GOOD now!" And I said, "GOOD!" asked forgiveness, explained my horrible mindset at the time and we went on for a lot of fun again. I was so focused on getting that thrusting tip in there that I had "highway hypnosis" sort of.

That was the only hic-up I had that weekend. One "sorry I wasn't paying attention to you" situation.

Sometimes it's not malice.

With respect,

-Aaron

I was once asked "your Majesty, just how hard do I have to hit you?" to which I looked bewildered and said "ummm when" and the answer was that I had been hit with a walloping Poleaxe shot to the helm..... I never even felt it... ( I trust the man who questioned me )

I apologized for not noticing in the the thick of a mellee and went on from there. However, I did learn to be more aware in a mellee after that. I fight more tourney than mellee and that is a result of this kingdom but I know now that I need to be much more aware during the scrum...

I guess when my adrenaline is up, I really need to get smacked.

In singles it is easier because one is aware of their opponent, that is where I believe the true Rhino is to be found (if such a creature exists). In mellees stuff happens.

regards
Thorvaldr

Thorvaldr Skegglauss wrote:I was once asked "your Majesty, just how hard do I have to hit you?" to which I looked bewildered and said "ummm when" and the answer was that I had been hit with a walloping Poleaxe shot to the helm..... I never even felt it... ( I trust the man who questioned me )

I apologized for not noticing in the the thick of a mellee and went on from there. However, I did learn to be more aware in a mellee after that. I fight more tourney than mellee and that is a result of this kingdom but I know now that I need to be much more aware during the scrum...

I guess when my adrenaline is up, I really need to get smacked.

In singles it is easier because one is aware of their opponent, that is where I believe the true Rhino is to be found (if such a creature exists). In mellees stuff happens.

regards
Thorvaldr

The above is what makes honourable men.

I recently fought at the Insula Draconis Coronet tournament, it was my first big tourney and I had no illusions of winning it.

After one of the fights where I won I came off and was told by a knight that I had shrugged off two good thrusts to my visor. I was absolutely stunned, I did not even notice them. I offered to have the fight result reversed in favour of my opponent but he declined.

After the tournament had finished I was told by the same knight that it had happened at least twice more. Again I was stunned I had been honestly oblivious to at least 4 thrusts onto my visor.

Someone mentioned that some (if not all) of them had come upwards to my chin and I noticed, when checking, that I have a blind spot close to my chest which could lead to me not seeing a shot there rising up there. I was also wearing new solid torso armour (finished it the day before) instead of just a jack so I would not feel it on my chest - and if I mistook my helmet moving when struck for it moving as I moved then I guess I could have not noticed the shot, I am not sure.

However, I would have taken it in a heartbeat if I had known.

I was horrified that I had potentially 'won' several fights which I should have given to my gracious opponents.

I am glad that no one decided to give me a 'beatdown' because I would not have known what the problem was.

Stefan ap Llewelyn wrote:I recently fought at the Insula Draconis Coronet tournament, it was my first big tourney and I had no illusions of winning it.

After one of the fights where I won I came off and was told by a knight that I had shrugged off two good thrusts to my visor. I was absolutely stunned, I did not even notice them. I offered to have the fight result reversed in favour of my opponent but he declined.

After the tournament had finished I was told by the same knight that it had happened at least twice more. Again I was stunned I had been honestly oblivious to at least 4 thrusts onto my visor.

Someone mentioned that some (if not all) of them had come upwards to my chin and I noticed, when checking, that I have a blind spot close to my chest which could lead to me not seeing a shot there rising up there. I was also wearing new solid torso armour (finished it the day before) instead of just a jack so I would not feel it on my chest - and if I mistook my helmet moving when struck for it moving as I moved then I guess I could have not noticed the shot, I am not sure.

However, I would have taken it in a heartbeat if I had known.

I was horrified that I had potentially 'won' several fights which I should have given to my gracious opponents.

I am glad that no one decided to give me a 'beatdown' because I would not have known what the problem was.

worry not... all good things in good time.

if your Opponent had problems with you he should/would have discussed them with you.

The good Knight was I am sure just letting you know "in his opinion" he thought you should watch for such things in future.

It was discussed with all of you prior to the tourney that you understood the list rules, and to clear all things before stepping off the field.

I found the tourney to be well fought and honorable,

ThorvaldR

The thing that I have been doing is trying as hard as I can to keep my opponents from taking blows from me that are not EXACTLY like the ones I am taking.

Some people think I'm being a dick on purpose, but then when they hit me with half-baked stuff they know what I'm doing.

I can't throw like lightning anymore. I don't have any problem with saying that for about two years I had one of the fastest swords in the entire Midwest. Now I'm trying to get closer to sword-fighting, as opposed to rattan kendo.

Dauyd wrote:But how can the blows be considered "excessive" if the receiver won't even admit they are valid blows?

That, to me, is the problem with your stance.

If the opponent refuses to take anything less than an "11", then "11" can't be considered excessive.

It is breaking the rules because you know it is excessive, even if the rhino in question doesn't. Just because he is taking advantage of the honor system of our game doesn't mean you should besmirch your own to "teach him a lesson."

This game of ours doesn't happen in a vacuum of two fighters. Everyone is watching, an a goodly number of those will have fought that same rhino. They know the score. When it becomes clear that he prefers victory in that bout to retaining the respect of everyone else and his own honor, what is to be gained by thrashing him at injurious levels? What is proved, besides that you are capable of hurting someone? The momentary victory is not worth the long term loss of your own honor.

Alex Baird wrote:

Dauyd wrote:But how can the blows be considered "excessive" if the receiver won't even admit they are valid blows?

That, to me, is the problem with your stance.

If the opponent refuses to take anything less than an "11", then "11" can't be considered excessive.

It is breaking the rules because you know it is excessive, even if the rhino in question doesn't. Just because he is taking advantage of the honor system of our game doesn't mean you should besmirch your own to "teach him a lesson."

This game of ours doesn't happen in a vacuum of two fighters. Everyone is watching, an a goodly number of those will have fought that same rhino. They know the score. When it becomes clear that he prefers victory in that bout to retaining the respect of everyone else and his own honor, what is to be gained by thrashing him at injurious levels? What is proved, besides that you are capable of hurting someone? The momentary victory is not worth the long term loss of your own honor.

That raises an interesting question for me though. Is it dishonorable to give your opponent what they expect or require in order to consider your shot sufficient? How can it be? Unless you have willful intent to cause injury which is against the rules I don't think it can be considered excessive to strike your opponent with what they consider to be sufficient force.

My thought is that for this type of "rhino" it is their expectation of calibration that is excessive yet we do not really have a rule for that. Our rules allow for a beautiful thing which is for each fighter to display their personal honor or lack thereof.

On the flip side of this if we say that it is not the victory that is important to us then we should not be bothered by a loss to an opponent who has a higher calibration. Clearly some people here fall in line with this theory of things and perhaps the rest of us should reflect upon our own feelings of victory before being offended by another fighters extreme desire to win. Maybe both parties have an underlying problem that they should address with themselves. It is far to easy to make oneself feel like a "victim" which does not fit in with behaving in a knightly and chivalrous manner.

This thread is causing me to think hard about my own feelings on the subject which I like. In my youth I was far more offended by "rhinos" than I am today. Age and experience has changed my perspective a great deal.

My reply was in the context of turning up the power to "11". If the range is from 1 being totally inadequate, 5-8 being normal power range, and 10 being top end, then 11 is into the excessive range. Now, obviously, the 1-10 scale is a sliding one, depending on individuals and local norms, but "top end" should mean just that.

But, if I need to hit Lord Numbflesh at the equivalent of the local 11, then I know I am exceeding what is acceptable behavior among my peers. It then becomes a question of if I want to break what I consider to be the rules, simply to beat him. I don't think it right to do that for two reasons. First, and foremost, because I think "10" is the upper limit of what should be done. It's at 10 for a reason, and that reason is I don't want broken toys. Real disabling injury isn't something I want to inflict on a sparring partner. Second, because I don't want to cheat for the win. Throwing what I believe to be excessive force is every bit as much against our ruleset as not taking less than excessive is.

Alex Baird wrote:It is breaking the rules because you know it is excessive, even if the rhino in question doesn't. Just because he is taking advantage of the honor system of our game doesn't mean you should besmirch your own to "teach him a lesson."

I question this on multiple levels.

To my understanding, it is the one struck, not the one striking that determines what is light, good or excessive. Dialing up or down to meet your opponents requirements is, it seems, the essence of the game as played correctly and fairly.

By refusing to dial up, you are stating that your perception of the person being struck is better than his own. You are inverting the rules as stated.

I'm not saying it's not your right to surrender and walk off the field. I'm not saying you can't decide that dialing up further is not to your personal taste. I'm also not saying you can't be genuinely concerned for the other guy's real world safety.

I'm only saying that you cannot reverse rule one to enforce rule 2.

It cannot be excessive unless the person struck states that it is, any more than it can be good or light unless he states that it is. Yours is not to dictate how he receives his blows, merely to throw them to his liking.

That having been said, maybe your opponent is into the rough trade.

What I say is good, might be another's "excessive".

The thought there is excessive is useless, as it could be so many different levels.

The idea is to not break your freinds. I've only heard the word excessive used once, and it was after hitting someone three other times that were not good. It was funny, because the person reset to continue the fight becuase they didn't take the excessive shot.

Feargus wrote:

Alex Baird wrote:It is breaking the rules because you know it is excessive, even if the rhino in question doesn't. Just because he is taking advantage of the honor system of our game doesn't mean you should besmirch your own to "teach him a lesson."

I question this on multiple levels.

To my understanding, it is the one struck, not the one striking that determines what is light, good or excessive. Dialing up or down to meet your opponents requirements is, it seems, the essence of the game as played correctly and fairly.

By refusing to dial up, you are stating that your perception of the person being struck is better than his own. You are inverting the rules as stated.

I'm not saying it's not your right to surrender and walk off the field. I'm not saying you can't decide that dialing up further is not to your personal taste. I'm also not saying you can't be genuinely concerned for the other guy's real world safety.

I'm only saying that you cannot reverse rule one to enforce rule 2.

It cannot be excessive unless the person struck states that it is, any more than it can be good or light unless he states that it is. Yours is not to dictate how he receives his blows, merely to throw them to his liking.

That having been said, maybe your opponent is into the rough trade.

Well.. you are also missing that there's somewhat of a shared consensus of what constitutes "good" and "not good" in this game.

by the strict interpretation of what you said above, someone could go on to be an uber-duke by merely never taking a shot. Because NOBODY can match what they feel is "good" in their own skin.

Since that's clearly not a realistic interpretation, then we have to accept that while there is a range of what folks will take as "good" that range has to have some borders.

I understand the number scale thing yes but barring that how can it be considered excessive if the shot you throw is shrugged off like it's nothing? What if the guy just says good and takes the blow and is happy that you struck them with an 11 on your scale? Is that still excessive? maybe your 11 is only a 5 or 6 on their scale.

My thought is that the intent would simply be to throw what your opponent considers a sufficient blow which means you aren't intending to cause him injury but merely trying to provide what they expect or require in order to feel bested. I agree that if you feel like you are ramping up the power in order to cause injury then you should avoid that confrontation but if you are just trying to hit the person hard enough for them to accept it then it is clearly not excessive IMO. You are just providing them with what they obviously want.

Hmm...actually quite a bit of wisdom dropped down in this thread.

but first:

To my knowledge I've broken two people's arm. In neither case did I do anything unusual, just throwing my normal shots. One fellow really did do it to himself by blocking with his shield - make that shield ARM, he didn't have his shield on. The other was a fellow in a melee, nothing special, just my sword hit his forearm.

Yes, Gavin. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that you are one of the rare exceptions. I am also pretty sure you don't meet many folks who call off your shots (that one no-nerve-ending guy excepted)

So, by general consensus, the rules as stated are not followed?

Time for new rules.

But no, In all honesty, the source of the problem is that some people want to win more than they want to play the game as it's written.

This means either you rewrite the rules to prevent that from being possible, or just accept the fact that this is an exploitable loophole and part of the game.

The real problem is that by changing the rules, someone might be offended, falsely accused, insulted, etc.
Hell, the new rules might be worse than the old ones, depending on who's making them, and how they're used.

I personally think that more marshal authority and better marshal training would resolve the "lightlightlightlight Excessive! lightlightlight" problem.
In fact, that should pretty much be the very definition of a problem...

What is a good shot?

Balin50 wrote:What is a good shot?

One that the giver and taker both agree upon.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) they do not exist in the vacuum of space, but within the realm of our game, where peer pressure (pardon the pun) and local convention theoretically calibrate their meters pretty closely before they end up making that decision for themselves.

Maeryk wrote:

Balin50 wrote:What is a good shot?

One that the giver and taker both agree upon.



Well kinda but in end it is the taker that has final say. All the taker can do is throw harder and hit it again, or lose and bitch about it.

Balin


Edit All the giver can do

...DOh

SUMMARY OF WISDOM (IN THE LAST TWO PAGES AT LEAST)

Carlyle wrote:Isn't that kind of the point, though? Can you honestly put a real name to this? I don't disagree that some fighters are thicker than others (and in at least one case, off the scale), and many fighters sometimes go through "thick" phases; but in over three decades, I've personally not run into anyone who was the kind of consistent, unrepentent d!ck characterized by this and other posts.

Scott wrote:Instead of being upset at the guy who doesn't take your shot, why not thank him for the gift he has given you. He has given you the gift of being able to hit him again!

Nissan Maxima wrote:The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior, so discussions of what to do about these behaviors are nothing but mental masturbation. It may feel good but produces nothing.

We can only control our reactions and our own behavior.

I don't need to worry about whether someone takes my shots or not. I do need to make sure I give the best I can. Thats up to me. The rest I give away.

And like a good Buddhist he says:

Expectation is the death of serenity.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:"Light!" is short for "Please hit me harder!".

Smiley purposefully removed.

Thorvald wrote:In singles it is easier because one is aware of their opponent, that is where I believe the true Rhino is to be found (if such a creature exists). In mellees stuff happens.

This actually cuts both ways. Many times in a melee you are swinging at a guy who is running away or dodging while you are bound up or being jostled on on poor footing. That shot may not be anywhere near as hard as it looked or you thought it was.

In the last woods battle at Pennsic a guy charged the line oblique to me and I stepped up and creamed him in the back as he went by. Except I didn't, I kinda stepped in a hole on the hill and I did not hit him hard and I knew it. It must have looked good though - my buddies in the line were outraged that the guy I hit could have blown off that shot, but I informed them that his call was good and I missed him. Despite appearances.