Decided to make two kits. Thanks for Input!

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Hello folks,

I'm having a hard time with a certain struggle in my mind... Recently I purchased an entire set of 9mm riveted mail from Icefalcon and am waiting patiently for it to ship after his shipment arrives. I also purchased a set of Historic Enterprises 13th century undergarments and hosen and a pair of buckled turnshoes and a padded arming coif from Revival Enterprises. Finally, I picked up a custom gambeson and gamboised cuisses from my friend Alexander Omelyanchuk (Jollyknight).

Here's the issue - I have two viable options that will both cost about the same amount of money in the end.

1) I put all of these elements together and make a late 13th century knightly kit that works for both SCA combat and living history. For combat I would substitute in hidden couters, gorget and kidney belt between the gambeson and the hauberk and have a pair of leather clamshell gauntlets with riveted mail over the top of them. The mail chausses would be cut at the knees and attached to the gamboised cuisses. I would wear a great helm over the coif and an era-appropriate surcoat.

2) I divide these elements into two kits. The first kit would be for SCA. It would have the gambeson and gamboised cuisses, and exposed steel low profile couters and poleyns. I would make myself a decorated leather gorget, cuirass, vambraces, demi-gauntlets and greaves to match, and wear leather boots with modern insoles. I would purchase a low-profile helmet that has locking cheek plates. The entire kit would not be historically true to any era, as the body armor would resemble early 14th century cuirre with leather gauntlets, and the helm would be a sports piece designed for combat.

The second kit would incorporate all of the elements I've purchased so far beside the gambeson and gamboised cuisses. I would wear the mail directly over the clothing I purchased, and modify it heavily with loose links that I would purchase. First, the hauberk would be re-sized to fit me very comfortably. Then coif would be integrated into the hauberk and a ventail would be attached to it with a layer of padding between my face and the ventail and a tie-off point in the top corner. Mail mittens would also be added to the hauberk, with the historical slit leather palms sewn to them. The chausses would extend the entire length of my legs, tied to a belt beneath the hauberk. I would wear a pot helm over the coif and wear no surcoat. The impression would date to approximately 1210.

I am leaning towards the second option for two reasons -

First, my SCA kit would be more mobile and easy to transport without the heavy mail, and also be worth less money so when I took it distances to practice or events I would be unlikely to lose any items of great value.

Secondly, even though preparing the mail kit would be tedious, if I finish the leather items for the SCA kit I can begin to fight sooner and continue steadily to modify the mail into a kind of kit that few people can boast having seen through. It would be a real unique project that I would not replicate with the mail for SCA combat due to inconveniences with the modifications.

My main fear of going this route is that I would find little use for the historic kit, get tired of the project and always be wearing and cleaning my SCA armor so as to never have opportunities to show off the mail.

What do YOU think I should do?

-Gregory

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Really, I would go with the first. It isn't really that much more expensive to get hidden knee and elbows, even if you have to forgo hosen to get them to fit. Too many people in my mind go with the "pseudo-Crusader", simply because "I need more armour/I can't make it work". Those who do more are more worthy, especially if they stand out because of it.

[William Frisbee]

I've done the same as #1.

My kit is both living history quality when I wear the right underclothing, and its also SCA legal. The best of both worlds.

[Armand d'Alsace]

I cast my vote for #1 too.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Well, the problem is that you are fighting many people in SCA combat who are essentially naked. If you have big ambitions in SCA combat you can make yourself look pretty accurate while being able to fight with the "surcoat and big pants" crowd.

My advice is that you wear exactly what you want to wear, and get really good in it.

Option #1 will probably force you to do that.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Well, the problem is that you are fighting many people in SCA combat who are essentially naked. If you have big ambitions in SCA combat you can make yourself look pretty accurate while being able to fight with the "surcoat and big pants" crowd.

That's one of the big things for me, too. I want to be extremely competitive when I get back into the game this summer. But, I think the four of you so far have shown that it's probably most worthwhile to put together a kit that can be awesome both on the field and for typical reenactment events.

And the SCA is where it really counts, I think. There are hundreds and hundreds of living history quality suits of armor out there in the world. Men playing WMA games with full suits of plate, etc, etc... But in the SCA, I think if I nail this kit I could be one of those inspirational types, and that would make me very proud.

Also, customizing all of that mail would be a bitch and a half. Ha, ha.

The four of you settled it. I'll stick to the initial plan! Thanks much. If things come to being real problematic I can slap together a low-key leather kit in a few hours, literally... And use that for practice or whatnot.

-Gregory

[Wulfgar]

Why would you cut the maille at the knee? Most effigies etc that I have seen have the mail extending all the way down the leg.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

You've got it backwards, methinks. The chausses are going to be visible from the bottom of the feet up to the knees. Then, since it would be hidden beneath the gamboised cuisses anyway, I'm cutting them off so they do not extend up the thighs. This will save weight and give me some excess mail to work with for the mittens.

[Sasha_Khan]

My feeling is that by attaching the cut-down chausses to the gamboised cuisses, you'll still be dealing with a lot of downward drag on the cuisses

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Greg, I would look at the ones that Duke Gaston made for his 14th century kit. They may need a bit of modification (his are front lacing, while yours would need to be back), but it may give you the look and weight you are looking for.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

My feeling is that by attaching the cut-down chausses to the gamboised cuisses, you'll still be dealing with a lot of downward drag on the cuisses

Not as much as I would be if there was twice as much mail below the belt that they'd all be hung up on... I'm very certain that the image is clear in my mind. Mail from my foot to the top of my calf, laced onto a leather strip that will be sewn to the inside, bottom edge of the gamboised cuisses. The cuisses will then be strapped to a belt just like they typically would have been in period.

Greg, I would look at the ones that Duke Gaston made for his 14th century kit. They may need a bit of modification (his are front lacing, while yours would need to be back), but it may give you the look and weight you are looking for.

Yes, I considered his example seriously, at first. But such modifications are rather complex and for the bit of weight distribution issues resolved and anatomical curvature it may assist in accentuating, I don't think its worth the effort.

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Either way, I've had to postpone the order on the chausses and coif for financial reasons, so I'll only be working with the hauberk for a while.

Because of this, I'm thinking I may lean back towards option #2 again... Primarily because I think that's what I REALLY want to do. I'm a history buff through and through, and would like to have an accurately designed harness of mail that I can use to make a great early 13th century persona out of for reenactment purposes. The armor worn from approximately 1180-1220 is my favorite of any Medieval period.

I do not believe I have the skill or the patience to modify a harness of mail heavily enough to get it suited for both SCA and LH purposes in this fashion... I also do not believe that I would be able to fight to 100% of my potential wearing such a kit. The same goes for that described in the first option.

Also, there is no way in hell I'll be able to spend this much money on mail again until I'm out of college and have a career in six or seven years. It means a lot to me to have the opportunity to modify this mail for little more than I'll spend on the rough product and capture part of the image I enjoy the most in Medieval history.

So, I think I'm going to go against the grain on this one and let you guys see what comes of it. Thanks very much for the input, folks!

-Gregory