The Armour Archive

Richard:

"Notice the shirt protected well because you added a thick gambeson and a pair of vambraces"

I always thought that a good gambeson was assumed when talking about wearing mail. Why anyone would try to fight in mail without one is beyond me..

As to vambraces, my mail shirt never covered my forearms. Vambraces just seemed like a good idea...

Cedric

ps I could never "step into the light" and go 15th century.. my wife would love the opportunity to dress me up, but I would feel funny in the clothes. Saxon warrior dudes have much more comfortable clothes (and cooler looking helmets - even WITH bargrills)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cedric:
<B>ps I could never "step into the light" and go 15th century.. my wife would love the opportunity to dress me up, but I would feel funny in the clothes. Saxon warrior dudes have much more comfortable clothes (and cooler looking helmets - even WITH bargrills)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You actually like those cooking pots? Mate, sallets are so cool that everybody who had the readies got himself one!
Besides, I look good in a doublet!

Reinhard, unrepentant Swiss halberdier.

Quote: "I always thought that a good gambeson was assumed when talking about wearing mail. Why anyone would try to fight in mail without one is beyond me.."

I used to think so too. But a lot of SCA'ers wear gambesons with very little padding or just padding at the joints and shoulders. I personally think they are nuts (or immune to pain). I posted that I did not think it was authentic to fight in mail with basically a T-shirt instead of a thick and/or stiffer gambeson and expect to shrug off blows from a steel sword, as has been posted on other threads. Then in reponse, several members posted/E-mailed me that numerous extant 11th and 12th cent illuminations and the Bayeaux Tapestry show thin gambesons under armour that appear to be nothing more than a single light garment with little or no padding.

My response was that the guys with little or no padding under maille would not easily be shrugging off blows from a real sword.

So as usual, assumptions and generalizations can make discussions difficult.

I'm sorry but I don't see how the beauty of a Frog Mouth jousting helm, an armet, a sallet etc. can compare to any 11th century helm. The normal conicals and spagen helms just don't do it for me (although an elaborately decorated early helm a la Sutton Hoo is fascinating for its artistry). But I must admit I live the look of great helms of all periods, those are cool.

"(and cooler looking helmets - even WITH bargrills"

Bits of metal pieced together with rivits, add in a foot ball mask or...

the smooth sweeping lines of a Bascinet,Barbute or Sallet.


Must be all the head trauma from wearing such primitive head gear. Detached retnia maybe?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Reinhard:
My personal view that the square 'thingies' on the bayeaux tapestry Norman's maille is that they're face drapes that they're not wearing. The nasal would hold the maille off the face but it'd pull your beard hairs out!</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A somewhat late observation: I use a 'Norman bib' hooked up over my face. It sits very tight and close to my chin as I buckle my helm over the top of it. I have a goatee, the bib is not lined, and I don't have any beard problems.

(For the record, the mail is closely butted spring steel)

Michael B

Frog mouth jousting helmets??? I think that wearing all that lace must be addling your brains...

I do like most Salets and Armets, but I still prefer a well done spangenhelm (think WMA or something with a brasswork and such by Duke Torgul or Duke Steingrim).

Bascinets are kinda a mixed bag, I like them if they have well done visors (I prefer the Klappvisor to the Snout-nose) but think that they are totally hideous if they have one of those damn bargrills (want to talk about a fish bowl?).

Great helms are ok from an appearance point of view, I wouldnt ever want to fight in one again.

But frog mouth jousting helms??? Ack... give me a spuntop with a good bargrill, blue plastic from the neck down and get the dust off my madu... cause I would rather be seen as a mighty Smurfhide warrior than look like a stinking frog.

Frog Mouth's can be cool.

Check out a late 1400's German Gothic Stechhelm (sp?) with matching fluted harness, big pauldrons with wings, a lance rest that lets you hit your opponent with a lance so big and heavy that some of the splinters have a larger diameter than spears from Hastings. It is really, cool. They used to have one of these set up in the NYC Metropolitan Museum of Art at the head of the mounted knights section in the old days. It is one of the first complete suits I remember seeing in person in a museum. It is no longer on display, it was apparently "freely restored" to the point where much of the suit was determined not to be authentic and it was taken down when the Met redid its display in the 1980's. But it still was cool looking. It is featured in their old video about tournaments.

I think the Higgins has one on display, but not with matching mounted harness. If you don't see it with the rest of the harness on horseback, the helm seems ungainly and massive. In its proper context, it appears powerful and beautiful.

Much better than any spagenhelm I have ever seen. Spagenhelms look like what armourers who were never allowed to have an erector set as a child build as compensation.

Its all a matter of personal opinion...

Take a look at the blackened spectacle helm with the brass work on THIS page http://www.ironwolfarmouries.com/gallery/index.html

You REALLY think frog mouth jousting helms look cooler then this??? (so its not a Saxon helm.. but from the same general time period)

Absolutely I do. But like you said, it is a matter of personal preference. It also helps that I hate glasses so much I had RK surgery so I would not have to wear them. So buying a helmet that has glasses on it, is not going to seem like a good idea to me!

Thanks for posting that link though, some nice pieces there. It is our diversity of opinions and preferences that makes us strong and interesting. I just have fun poking fun at my friends.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
<B>Then in reponse, several members posted/E-mailed me that numerous extant 11th and 12th cent illuminations and the Bayeaux Tapestry show thin gambesons under armour that appear to be nothing more than a single light garment with little or no padding.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can they really tell how thick the garment is from C&I or embroidery? It can be hard enough from a photo.

Hi Alcyoneus,

Actually, it's not too tough to tell what is intended to have been indicated by some miniatures (case in point, the Mac bible)by the drape of the tunic being worn under the mail (as it is being put on). Regular cloth tunics are shown with the natural drapery that thinner cloth has. In comparison, look at the footsoldiers in the heavily paddded Acetons with the standing collars - there is no drap, small folds appear at the bends of the elbows, and quilting (usually vertical) can clearly be seen holding the linen and padding in place.

------------------
Bob R.

I don't know if you know about Regia Angelorium USA, Cedric. It seems to be right up your alley.

I'll look for a link and post it.

Oh, I know about them alright... Not a member or anything (as SOMEONE on here will be sure to point out, I wouldnt meet their authenticity standards) but I have scoured their webpages for information many a time.

Kinda stuck with the SCA for now, for one thing its all there really is 'round these parts, and for another I really love the fighting. Regia looks like a great deal of fun, but most of what little spare time I do have goes into either SCA or Everquest

Cedric

ps Richard, I fully understand about poking fun.. as long as its undertood that thats what it is. I would never seriously suggest that lace had addled your brains otherwise.
(well, not publicly that is )

There is a passage from Chretien de Troyes 12th century Arthurian cycle that indicates a thick silk tunic and nothing more was being worn beneath the hauberk.

The heaviest documented padding associated with maille that we have for the 12th and 13th centuries is from the Speculum Regalae, which describes a very lightly padded garment (or perhaps just a thick tinic) worn beneath the maille and a heavier padded and sleeveless garment worn *over* the maille.

The thick padded jackets from the 13th century Bible and other sources seem to be stand-alone armors.

------------------
Bob Charron
St. Martins Academy of Medieval Arms

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rev. George:
<B>Lodhur sapke with a mighty voice and sayeth:
Rev. George Since when are any of the rules supposed to be optional?
Thus does George respond:

Blows repeatedly blocked by a weapon in contact with a fighter’s helm, body or shield at the moment of impact may at the Crown’s or Marshallate’s discretion, be considered to have broken the blocking weapon. This will force a fighter to forfeit the fight, unless a secondary weapon is carried or the opponent chooses to allow the fighter to rearm with another weapon.</B> Rules of the list, Article IV section C

From the meridean website I assume that the discepency of numbers is clerical, or results form a revision:
<I><B>C. Blows repeatedly blocked by a weapon in contact with a fighter's helm, body or shield at the moment of impact may at the Crown's or Marshallate discretion, be
considered to have broken the blocking weapon. This will force the fighter to forfeit the fight, unless a secondary weapon is carried or the opponent chooses to allow
the fighter to rearm with another weapon.

WITHIN THE KINGDOM OF MERIDIES WE DO NOT APPLY THIS CONVENTION (CONVENTION III.C.). {emphasis thiers}</I> </B>

That's how. first you have to dance around saying that it is optional while inflating the ego/percieved power level of the crown/ Marchallate. Then wait till some people complain about it, and add a "non enforcement clause" to the rules.

-+G</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G,

Are you reading the same statment I am, I don't see any dancing around saying its optional or any inflating of ego/preceived power of Crown or Marshalate, if anything I see just the opposite.

1) discretionary and optional are seperate issues. discretionary in this context i preceive to mean, if it becomes a problem start enforcing it, where as optional means its your choice. i.e. its a let them play rule, kinda like holding in football or travelling in basketball,(it happens on almost every play) let it go for the most part but call the blaitant stuff.

2) as to the inflating of ego/perceived power of the crown and marshalate, how so, it seems to me that since making this call was at their discretion, and Meridies has taken that away. it has removed some of that "precieved power" from both entities, and placed the fight back on the honor of the combatants, it does not preclude the fighters themselves of self enforcing the anviling rule, it simply takes the call out of the hands of the Crown/Marshalate.

but lord knows I don't want to put words in the mouth of the marshalate, so I've forwarded this to our KEM and as I'm his Squire i'm sure if I'm wrong he'll let us know.

Ulrich

Ulrich,

Nope. Nice try. It IS all about power and ego. Haven't you learned anything?

Regards,

The Conal (no ego here)

the question I have is why offer an optional rule in the "master set" at all? These rules are the minimums, and you can add to them as you want. we already have a clause that states that kingdoms may be more strict, but not less, so what's the point?

The dancing bit is putting it in the society level rules (which all must follow) then adding "at its discretion" to it.that ego inflating comes in when you allow the crown to decide which portion of the rules to enforce.

-+G

It seems to me that the "discretion" implied is that of the marshal of the fight; does the incident require the marshal's intervention?

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Charron:
[B]There is a passage from Chretien de Troyes 12th century Arthurian cycle that indicates a thick silk tunic and nothing more was being worn beneath the hauberk.

The heaviest documented padding associated with maille that we have for the 12th and 13th centuries is from the Speculum Regalae, which describes a very lightly padded garment (or perhaps just a thick tinic) worn beneath the maille and a heavier padded and sleeveless garment worn *over* the maille.

The thick padded jackets from the 13th century Bible and other sources seem to be stand-alone armors.
********************************************
for whatever it's worth my gambeson is fairly thin (3/8 -1/2 inch) but it's made of multiple layers of fabric, wool "batting" and scrap woolen cloth. It moves fairly well, sort of "drapes", and is protectiv eenough for my needs
The heavier vertily quilted armors definately don't work under mail ( bad experiment - bad) as the mail tends to follow the hills and valleys of the gambeson, hangs up, and binds. Also it is quite difficult to belt the mail, so you wind up with all of the weight hanging from your sholders unexpectedly during hte fight.
This thread has driven me crazy as I have an reference from an islamic source to someone buying a frankish mail shirt, helmet, quilted coat, and the felt pads which were laced into the mail. As soon as I can locate the book
I'll post it.

Ulrich....

While appreciate the effort, I dont think its neccesarry. The problem is a society level one, not a kingdom one. Why have "optional" standardized rules? Imagine having a fereral law that said somewhere there in that "at the option of the local government, a person who drives the speed limit during the rain may be declared driving reckless, and subject to fines"

Its a silly SCA ism, and given the nature of Sir Conal, I could see him crusading against this, as he did plastic (which is a good thing)...

-+G

Whew, Rev, I thought you'd lost your mind for a minute.

Sir Conal, your perspective and efforts are indeed greatly appreciated, and I'm sure you don't get told that enough by the right folks. As you've said before, you and I may not be in lockstep but I think we're marching toward the same goal.

I just don't have your patience. It's an old guy thing. 8o)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mordreth:
for whatever it's worth my gambeson is fairly thin (3/8 -1/2 inch) but it's made of multiple layers of fabric, wool "batting" and scrap woolen cloth. It moves fairly well, sort of "drapes", and is protectiv eenough for my needs
The heavier vertily quilted armors definately don't work under mail ( bad experiment - bad) as the mail tends to follow the hills and valleys of the gambeson, hangs up, and binds[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many of the mail wearers in the live steel group I play with wear mail over very light padding. Only occasionally we see a broken rib when wearing mail over padding. We are not hitting full SCA power, but we are unchoreographed and using maces, axes, spears which only have a 1" diameter steel flat end for thrusting (hammer heads work great). After so many years in the SCA I was rather surprised at how much better mail works against a steel blade. It sheds it better than one would expect.

I agree with the vertical stuffed batting. After awhile gravity starts to work too and it clumps toward the bottom....

I wear a gambeson square quilted with plastic plates inside each quilt between moving pad and a trigger weight cloth on the outside. This protects fine for SCA alone and with mail, I am really fine for steel.

-Juliana

I think the mistake here is leaving it at the discretion of the marshal (which is what sparks the ego issues Conal described), & not the fighter. Other types of hits are on the honor of the fighter, why not this one?

If I may guide this thread back to the topic at hand...

Those of you who have been in the SCA for a while have probably seen alot of changes & improvements. How, exactly, did they take place? If you were involved in these changes, what part did you take & what challenges did you face? Granted, most of them were gradual, social changes; but surely you remember the first time you saw something at an event, & the effect it had on the people there.

I remember the first time I saw someone using 'La Jeu de la Hache' techniques, with pollaxes, at fighter practice.

I remember my first counted blows tourney.

I remember the first time I saw someone actually fighting in full mail. I also remember being told that my 7th century persona was too early to use it. Thank you archivists who set me aright.

More specifically, I assume different procedures ought to be applied in different contexts. Perhaps just showing up & doing it is enough in some circumstances. We can see that slightly more adamant methods are sometimes necessary, as with Conal's 'no plastic' ruling. Some things _need_ to be put in writing. Some of you have served in various offices & positions. I assume some of you have also appealed to higher authorities within the SCA to make a change or clarification. On both counts, what sort of resistance did you meet, & how did you deal with it?

Whew, Rev, I thought you'd lost your mind for a minute.
Nope...dont lose my mind, it just occasionally wanders.

Sir Conal, your perspective and efforts are indeed greatly appreciated, and I'm sure you don't get told that enough by the right folks. As you've said before, you and I may not be in lockstep but I think we're marching toward the same goal.

Yeah, what gaston said.

-+G

Juliana
"Many of the mail wearers in the live steel group I play with wear mail over very light padding. Only occasionally we see a
broken rib when wearing mail over padding. We are not hitting full SCA power, but we are unchoreographed and using
maces, axes, spears which only have a 1" diameter steel flat end for thrusting (hammer heads work great). After so many
years in the SCA I was rather surprised at how much better mail works against a steel blade. It sheds it better than one"
I've been working with a few folks in the area to bring "early period" (11th-12th century) back into use in the SCA - it can be effective if you work at it. On the other hand hte guys I train with don't break very easy
Course when I started "early period" referred to the weekend after the sack of Rome
would expect.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Michael B:
<B> A somewhat late observation: I use a 'Norman bib' hooked up over my face. It sits very tight and close to my chin as I buckle my helm over the top of it. I have a goatee, the bib is not lined, and I don't have any beard problems.

(For the record, the mail is closely butted spring steel)

Michael B</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See www.geocities.com/egfrothos/Bib1 for a discussion with pictures and reconstruction. NOT you, Michael, I know YOU already know!

I fight metal weapons in mail over a linen undertunic and a woollen tunic, but we pull our blows. It's still uncertain how well this stood up against a proper blow from an edged weapon at full force, but it must have been SOME good, because it seems they did it for a good long while before padded garments came in.



------------------
Egfroth

"It's just a flesh wound - I've 'ad worse"
The Black Knight

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Gang,

The reason the "optional" or discretionary rules are in the Society rules is that some kingdoms use them and some don't. In most cases (out on a limb here), I'm betting that individual kingdoms were gaming something a certain way before some smart chap at Society ever got around to writing a standardized (sort of) set of rules. Another way to look at why the optional rules are in there is so that you won't be completely surprised to find out that the kingdom you're visiting is doing something completely different from what you're used to. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't lose a lot of sleep over this...

Now, I agree that it would be a Good Thing to standardize the rules. Funny enough, so does your Society Earl Marshal. Being younger than Bob, and therefore more patient , he is forming a comittee for studying rules standardization issues, a comittee whose job it will be to recommend to him ways to make the SCA game more uniform from kingdom to kingdom. Will it be like herding cats? Well, only if the cats are suffering from ADD, are as stubborn as geologic formations (rocks, Murdock -- just kidding, don't sic Aidan on me), and are very, very cranky. Will good (if you think standardization is good) come of it? Yes, I think so. Slowly.

George, thanks for explaining what in the Underworld you meant by your post.

Regards,

Conal

P.S. I hate the SCA. There. Just wanted to get in on that action.

Hi Conal.

I received a generic E-mail looking for a volunteer to be on the committee as the East Kingdom representative. While I would actually love to do this, I have zero time unless the committee communicates nights or weekends only and by conference call and/or E-mail. I have also been very inactive for a few years and my views kind of go against what much of the kingdom thinks is right (for example, our Earl Marshal, a great guy and a friend of mine, wears plastic Jap harness and thinks it is fine to do so and half of the Northern Region wears plastic bear claw gaunlets) so I would probably end up representing what I think we should do rather than what the kingdom wants. Not that I have a problem with that, but I doubt they would appoint me as a result.

Up until recently the Eastern Rules were better than society rules. Unfortunately they recently reverted to Society minimums for the weapons and armour.

I actually would like to see standard rules for all the kingdoms. Unfortunately, they probably means that the East would get stuck with a lot of the really bad rules, like Murder From Behind (KFB), no limit to the number of people that can assault a single fighter and an inability to easily eliminate exposed plastic. The one advantage to having separate kingdoms is that we have a shot at getting the East to enforce higher armour standards than the rest of the society is likely to agree to. In the East, we tend to hit pretty hard, on a par with Atlantia and parts of the middle. It is definitely not armoured fencing here.

I do agree though that standardized rules would be better, as long as they are good rules, and I would support this effort.

Especially if it does away with CA as a result!

-Richard

Now let me clarify Richard, Conal;

The idea then is to _standardize_ the rules, NOT necessarily to bring them closer to an historically accurate standard?

Alas, I have no plans to move to the East anytime soon. Do either of you know by chance whom the delegate is for the Outlands?

"are as stubborn as geologic formations (rocks, Murdock -- just kidding, don't sic Aidan on me)"

Rocks?
What kind metamorphic, sedementary, or ignious?

Now where's Aidans email?



Thats a good question Lodhur, but i doubt they'll make any particular effort to become more authentic. I hope i'm wrong.

Richard,

It is my understanding (i.e., "I think") they're going to do most of their communicating via email. However, you're probably right about the inactivity thing.

Lodhur,

They're just going to be talking about standardizing rules between kingdoms, not necessarily moving towards "more historically accurate" rules. One monumental task at a time, please.

I do not know who the representative from the Outlands will be. I think the committee Chairman is still taking applications and recommendations and has not finalized the committee yet. Maybe there'll be an announcement soon. I'll keep you guys posted.

Murdock,

You're a good sport, even if you can't spell igneous (or sedimentary). It was fun fighting you this weekend. I'll be on the lookout for Aidan the Knife.

Regards,

Conal

Richard wrote-"In the East, we tend to hit pretty hard, on a par with Atlantia and parts of the middle."

And yet even with fighting in the East for years I never got knocked out.
That however, HAS happened, twice, when I fought against Atlantians.

If they made a movie about Kingdom Crusades, they would call it "Numb and Number".

VvS