The Armour Archive

I had a few questions about calibration that I would like some help on.

I have the habit of taking non-solid, non-telling blows if they “pingâ€

hjalmr


Fact of the matter is, in the SCA, you are on your own honor on accepting blows.

Some fighters will throw a lighter than normal shot when the opening is pretty obvious, rather than hit you full out (like leaving a leg or arm wide open over and over) - why bruise you if they don't need to? However, most of the time they'll let you know they were being nice.

IMO, if the blow was embarrasingly clean, I'll take damn near anything. But it needs to be clean and obviously intended (no "I'm throwing in desparation a wrap to see if it will hit" stuff). Now if a blow bounces off my sword/shield and still hits me hard enough to be telling, I'll take that too - some peole don't - you are on your honor, not mine.

So if you feel it was light, call it light. But remember, saying light does translateto "hit me harder."

Now, not to just sit and and defend the Chivalry, TOC isn't necessarily the best place to get "all out fights" with some of the Chivalry. Many are there to spar / teach, and try to spread thier endurance/effort/time out amoung all the unbelts they can - and I've been at TOC were the ubelts had an 8 - 1 advantage! Trust me, by the end of a 3 or 4 hour run, it is hard to go "all out"! Some knight can do it, some can't.

Anyway, where about are you in Oaken? I don't recognize your name, but ot be honest, I'm lousy with names...

Diolun

Hjalmr,

Tough call. My general opinion is that you should take only good blows. However, there are as many 'good' blows as there are fighters on the field. Perhaps the best advice is to seek out an experienced fighter that you respect and discuss your experiences (and perhaps go a few rounds) to recheck your calibration.

Almost by definition, the Knights you faced should have been capable of throwing a 'telling' blow. It is certainly possible that they were mad not with you but with themselves for not connecting properly (I know I get that way). Ask them! It's also possible that they have a different idea of what is 'good'. They may not be "right".

You have to develop your own calibration based on the local customs and training in your Kingdom. As always, the best way to do this is TALK TO YOUR OPPONENTS. Perhaps not during the fight on the list field (although I do), but certainly afterwards and always at practice.

I try to temper my calibration by remembering why I'm on the field: to give my opponent the opportunity to gain honor. Honor can only be given, not taken. If I accept too light a blow, or offer an easy shot, I'm not giving my opponent much honor. If I take too hard a blow, I am losing my own honor. That is the balancing act I apply to calibration.

I hope this serves you well,
Ulsted

You are not the only one with these oncerns. When you practise do you talk to you oponint about the shots after words? There is A lot of stuff that does glance off of armor. Try and get A feel for the force of the blow and not the sound. When you are practiseing it is okay to stop and ask about the shots in question. Do you come home with A of bruises in area that you dont rmember taking? I allways thought if I receve A bruise from a shot that it was good enough.

Also think about what type of armor you where and how does it work. What I mean if you have A lot of plate over certain areas you are not going to feel the shots as well. So you should be mind full. Also when you have plates over laping each other you get A bridge afect that will soften the blow. Does this make sense? Do you get A lot of serious dents in your armor that you dont remeber? If so you may wan tto think about that also. I have been hit in my breast plate, that I hade it Taco and never noticed untill the fight was over. At which point I apolgized to my oponent for not taking the shot.

from Knoch

I try to teach new guy's to hit hard and take light at first. If they are fighting a person with integreaty there oponent will let them know if the shot was good enough.

Yep still cant spell.

Thanks for all the qiuck responces. To elaberate a little more:

I wear minimum armor (actually I added the hauberk last month, but for most blows it's pretty minimal). I only come home with bruises on my illegally target body parts (wrist, knee, shin, ankle). I do tell the new fighters after I except a good blow, that it was still rather light -swing a little harder (actually they need to follow through). I am also in the Constellation (Indiana)of the Middle Kingdom. And last but not least -the fighters I respect ALL think I accept to many light blows.

Another thing that complicates matters is that I fight defensively and almost always catch a piece of something swung at me. I also jerk my head, legs, and arms about to avoid blows and although the shot looks good and sounds good -I don't feel that it is.


I have pretty much made up my mind, but wanted to see what everyone hear has to say -someone may bring up something I hadn't thought about.

Thanks
(^_^)

Blow calibration is the main reason why I wear minimum armor -not so that I can be super sports jock. I figured if I didn't accept blows on an unarmored area, then there couldn't be any questions. I was of coarse wrong!

(^_^)

It sounds like you are at the point to where you are ready to start making your own Judgment on Calibration. If you have A lot of people telling you are taking to light you may be. ever thought you may not be giving your oponent A good fight because you are taking light? Look at as you would some one who is A Rihno, but from the opsosite end of the scale.

Now from another point if you do take light you are encrouging Bad techneque. All the people you fight will not have to take that next step to beat you. You are leting them get off easy.(okay I see huge reprisal here coming) I am not saying become A Rihno just be mind full of the power it actualy takes. Do not judge off the sound of the shot. Judge off the feel of the shot. Your game enjoyment will encrease ten fold.

From Knoch

Nope still cant spell.

If your getting "pinged" that much, you should prolly be thinking more about your "D" (defense). It has always been my philosophy that, we are practicing a sport on fighting, not metal denting, so I take ANYTHING that snaps in clean, I have done just fine in the lists, and I have never once had my calibration questioned. This has led to, what I believe to be cleaner calibration from my opponents also. Lead by example.
IMHO
Auto

Hjalmr, I'll be a squire who breaks ranks. Shots MUST be good. Tinks aren't good. I had a terrible experience at Pennsic over a *tink* fighter. I'd say that unless said fighter was hitting you lightly after an obvious screw up, you say "I'm sorry my lord, but could you hit me a bit more forcefully?"

If when saying it you realize you don't really mean it, then you stop, and go "whoops, my bad, good shot!" and fall down.

I agree fairly heavily with what Ulstead said, and will temper it with this. If you fight longer enough SOMEBODY will think you are a rhino. It is inevitable. Some person will catch you on a bad day, or a day with new armour, a day that SOMETHING is different. Therefore, I suggest you maintain that you and your friends are happy with your calibration. Trying to please everybody is impossible.

It's not clear that you have any problems with calibration, but it sounds like you're unsure, so you need to find out.If you're worried that you have a calibration problem, talk to some experienced fighters whose opinion you respect and that play with you and other groups regularly. Then be prepared to act on what they tell you. I'd agree that a knight should be expected to consistently throw good force blows, while you might make allowances for a less-experienced fighter with good targeting but insufficient force.

For my part, I have had rhino periods. I like to think I've grown out of them. One problem I finally found is that, under the pudge, I have very strong abdomen and neck muscles. This means that if I anticipate a blow to my head or gut, and the requisite muscles tighten up, I don't feel _anything_. As a result, if I know I tightened up, I'll take anything that hits in those areas whether it felt good or not.

I find it good, especially in practice, to take anything clean - it really sharpens your defense. Since it is practice, though, let your opponents know they need to raise their force if it's not a telling blow; they need feedback as well.

As others here have said, you can't go wrong by talking to those you fight. In addition to calibration, this is often the best way to find and fix errors in your technique.

Good Luck,

- Kyle.

Hi there,

Of all the questions fighters ask, this one is one of the most difficult to answer in words.

Frankly, my opinion is that we take blows that are much too light much too often. We're wearing armor: a "ping" wouldn't do any good at all, nor would repeated pings. If you take a blow that's too light you are cheating your opponent by giving him a victory his skill didn't earn. To me, that would be insulting.

A friend of mine once said that a gentleman always makes sure that he hits his friends so hard that they don't ever have to worry about whether the blows were good or not, and that seems to me like the chivalrous thing to do. It's not like our fighting is dangerous, after all!

Face thrusts vary by kingdom, but I think they should be solid blows. After all, a light touch to the face won't kill you, all it would do is pump up your adrenilin; you probably wouldn't even feel it until after the fight. Wasn't it one of St. Louis' knights, Ranulf, maybe? who continued fighting after his nose was hacked off his face?

Besides, light face thrusts just encourage unskilled fighters who can't hit hard enough to try to get a cheap kill by poking. It's unmanly and unseemly.

The bottom line is this: Hit very hard, take very hard, but always be consistent in both. You'll always have those who complain your calibration (giving and receiving) is too high, but most of those won't be elite members of the chivalry, and those are the opinions you should value most.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

I want to iterate that communication is very important. If you communicate with your opponent and the Marshals, your reputation will be fine.

I also believe in consistancy. DO NOT take light at practices and then change during a tourney. If you expect a solid shot, NEVER allow your opponent to take an iffy shot of yours, no matter how important the tourney may seem.

I do not think you should EVER say "I took that but it was light". That will just make people think you are an a**hole.

If you set yourself a calibration that is higher than the rest of your kingdom, even though it is common to your local barony, you will likely get a bad rep in any case.

Winning tournaments in foreign lands shows great prowess and will gain you great reknown, but winning where your reputation is tarnished in the process is worse than dropping out the second round. Whether you think "the rightness" of your call is irrelevant. Your reputation is based on the perception of others.

Talk talk. Assume the Marshals are there to help you. Assume they are not idiots. Believe it or not, many of us can tell when someone has moved out of a blow or not and can tell a "ping" from a "thunk". You would be amazed at how much is blatantly obvious to trained/skilled observers.

If you have preferences, you can always request for certain individuals to Marshal on your field or extra Knights to Marshal in addition or watch and comment on your fights from the sidelines. Pick ones you don't know well but have a reputation of Honor. Ask for blunt honesty. Be ready to listen to what they have to say.

Get someone to videotape your fights.

Juliana

<<< Assume the Marshals are there to help you >>>

Sorry, but most of the time you ask the marshals abouit the fight –they go “ugh, didn’t see it.â€

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hjalmr:
[B]

<<< I also believe in consistancy. DO NOT take light at practices and then change during a tourney. >>>

THIS IS MY PROBLEM, I also do this during pick up fights.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you do in peace is what you'll do in war. Practice to fight for real!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><<< I do not think you should EVER say "I took that but it was light". That will just make people think you are an a**hole. >>>

I do this too, but more like “well it was kinda light, but it was clean.â€

Thank-you Rhys! That is exactly the way I feel also. I consider it an insult to my opponent to take anything less than a telling blow...it is like telling them, because I know you are not able to hit properly, I feel sorry for you so I will just take it to make you not lose face.....BS!


I always hit someone so that there is no doubt...I also expect them to do the same. If I say it is no good, I mean it is no good in my opinion and since I am in the armor, I should know.

That being said, I have not very often had a light shot called on me from one of my blows. Since I only wear a halbrek/coat of maille, I figure if you hit me hard enough to get my attention, I was hit hard enough to call it. If not, I sure will tell you.

I think Alcenyous will vouch, that I don't get to many light shots called.

My advice to you is to set your level, live by that level and stay true to that level of force. Be sure to explain to any who question you your reasoning and then just go on.

[This message has been edited by Rorik Galbraith (edited 02-13-2002).]

I agree whole heartedly with FrauHirch.

and would add dont just talk to the marshal's talk to your opponent. ask, his/her opinion, but be willing to accept it.

Calabrate to your kingdom/regional standards. if you travel to another area, calibrate with the locals or your opponent. if they obviously are of different calibration than you...you move to meet their level, at least in what you accept as a good shot. I personally wouldnt move my shot force down, (it can throw off your technique) but you may have to raise it to another area's level. When in rome...

I'd like to make a statment about the honor thing. dont misunderstand, your honor is your own, you can give honor but you cant take it, and its only yourself who must meet your own expectation of your own honor.
A reputation, however, is earned...and its earned by your actions, how you conduct yourself based on your enviroment. thats why I say talk to people in the area your in. If the people your fighting and that are watching believe your tanking shots, then...your tanking shots. If the people who your fighting and who are watching think your taking shots that are too light, then your taking shots that are too light.

your honor belongs to the person who looks at himself in the mirror. your reputation is held by the person who looks back.

Ulrich
I was told once "Throw the thunder, call the rain." and I believe if you do this, your honor and reputation will be intact. though i dont remember exactly who said this to me, I believe it was Duke Gareth.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 02-13-2002).]

SyrRhys, Rorik Galbraith:

This is the way I feel as well –my problem is that I just have a hard time DOING this. I fight for the fun of it. Yes, I like winning, but I don’t mind losing if I have fun. At least this is how I see it. I have only just returned from a 4 year hiatus and want to nip this in the bud this time around.


(^_^)

Thanks for all the help.

Rhys, Rorik...the problem is that he's in the Middle kingdom. I believe their marshall handbook actually says to TAKE a shot if it's light but clean. At least that's what I saw being discussed on the Northshield list recently. Please, someone from Middle, correct me if I'm wrong. I went to DL the marshall handbook and look quick, but the server was down.

Personally, I agree with you guys...Unless I feel like I was out of position and it was a mercy to not hit me hard when I was vulnerable, clean-but-light doesn't do it for me. I take cup taps very light just assuming they pulled them no matter what. I usually say, "Thanks for not pasting me" and if they say "you're welcome" that's fine. If they did NOT pull the shot, then it's on their honor to tell me, "No, I didn't pull that." If they don't, what do I lose? Nothing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hjalmr:
<B>SyrRhys, Rorik Galbraith:

This is the way I feel as well –my problem is that I just have a hard time DOING this. I fight for the fun of it. Yes, I like winning, but I don’t mind losing if I have fun. At least this is how I see it. I have only just returned from a 4 year hiatus and want to nip this in the bud this time around.


(^_^)

Thanks for all the help.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 02-13-2002).]

Hjalmr-
You wouldn't happen to have a big blue star on your helmet, would you?
-V

Originally posted by hjalmr:
<B>
<<< Assume the Marshals are there to help you >>>

Sorry, but most of the time you ask the marshals abouit the fight –they go “ugh, didn’t see it.â€

Votus wrote:

<<< Hjalmr-
You wouldn't happen to have a big blue star on your helmet, would you? >>>

Actually it was a big yellow star on a blue and white background (my Baronial colors). It has to be me your thinking of because I don't believe anyone else had a big star of any color on thier helmet. It was on my shield(and tabbard when I was wearing it)too.

Guess you figured me out.

(^_^)

Face thrusts vary by kingdom, but I think they should be solid blows. After all, a light touch to the face won't kill you, all it would do is pump up your adrenilin; you probably wouldn't even feel it until after the fight. Wasn't it one of St. Louis' knights, Ranulf, maybe? who continued fighting after his nose was hacked off his face?

no offence but getting poked in the face with a sword would take out most people. but then again there are people that continue fighting after losing an eye or an arm.

The bottom line is this: Hit very hard, take very hard, but always be consistent in both. You'll always have those who complain your calibration (giving and receiving) is too high, but most of those won't be elite members of the chivalry, and those are the opinions you should value most.

actualy it's my opinion that values most rember if people don't like tha way you fight they wont fight with you. it's a fun game I want to keep playing.

A friend of mine once said that a gentleman always makes sure that he hits his friends so hard that they don't ever have to worry about whether the blows were good or not, and that seems to me like the chivalrous thing to do. It's not like our fighting is dangerous, after all!

actualy it can be. pennsic 29 aethealmarc's king go taken off the field with an ambulance
broken arm or shoulder I bleave.
last year at pennsic 30 I bleave there where a few other breaks in the woods.
this game is only as safe as you make it. calibration should be firm not crushing there are fighters out there that will dent your 12 guage stainless helm with out a thought. its not how hard you hit but where it was solid and did not skip was it a glancing blow of a weapon. rember you are wearing just chainmail and an openfaced helm what damage would that do you in that armour.

take no offence but try and keep this in mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by losthelm:
<B>no offence but getting poked in the face with a sword would take out most people. but then again there are people that continue fighting after losing an eye or an arm.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know that a light poke to the face would "take out most people"? We have various sources that contradict that, and I know from experience that some fairly substantial injuries don't even get noticed in the heat of the moment.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">actualy it's my opinion that values most rember if people don't like tha way you fight they wont fight with you. it's a fun game I want to keep playing.</font>

Why is it your opinion that matters most?

If people don't want to fight someone because he hits too hard, they can always fence. This is supposed to be armored combat, not tag.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">actualy it can be. pennsic 29 aethealmarc's king go taken off the field with an ambulance
broken arm or shoulder I bleave.
last year at pennsic 30 I bleave there where a few other breaks in the woods.
this game is only as safe as you make it. calibration should be firm not crushing there are fighters out there that will dent your 12 guage stainless helm with out a thought. its not how hard you hit but where it was solid and did not skip was it a glancing blow of a weapon. rember you are wearing just chainmail and an openfaced helm what damage would that do you in that armour.

take no offence but try and keep this in mind.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our fighting is less dangerous than high school football... we have fewer injuries. Moreover, you have to realize that most of the few injuries we do have aren't related to the force of blows (for example, to your point about the woods battle, most injures there are bee stings and turned ankles and heat related) People can get hurt playing tiddlywinks; that doesn't make it a dangerous sport. Of course injuries happen, but they're extremley rare, even in places that have *extremely* high relative calibration.

As for your comment about armor, not every kingdom uses the "open faced helm" rule as a standard, and mail is a lot more protective than you've obviously been taught to believe. It takes a tremendous amount of force to hurt someone through decent armor.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

I think we are getting into the world of wording again.
What is a "clean" blow? If someone throws a shot at me that lands without any obstruction, but was thrown in a way that there is no way the COULD have generated sufficient force, then that is not a clean blow. On the other hand, if I walk into a flat snap because of my own stupidty, Im going to take it, even if it is on the lower end of the force spectrum.
If you are wearing decent armour that is well padded, and you hear a shot but dont feel anything, I have a hard time believing it was a good shot. On the other hand, I have gone to practicers outside my home barony, and shrugged off "light" shots, until I recieved a couple blows and realized that they just hit a bit lighter there.
If are hit more than one with "light" blow, ans you have any idea that your opponent thinks they were good, just talk to them. ask "is that a normal telling blow for you"?
Most fighters are honorable and will give you a strait answer. Many fighters seem to have trouble approaching opponents they feel are not taking shots ( myself included). If you take the initiative, the matter will be resolved, and if anything I would think your renown would increase.
I understand what was said about not cheating your friend by taking a poor shot, Do you think it is possible to cheat yourself by not taking shot on the lower end of things if you screwed up?

As i wear plate, most people amp up with me any way, but i dont like to take shots that are sloppy. having done so many cutting demos, clean cuts and even grossly over powered slop usualy wont. I have started saying" plenty of power , just not a clean shot. " and that usualy doesnt get me nuked on the next shot. try explaining 'clean ' shots.

Guys - Lets try to remember a couple of somethings - - -

1) In the REAL Middle Ages, these guys were either:

A) Professional Warriors - this was their "job" and trained for it appropriately, and the inherent risk accepted. Life was short, and cheap... Is yours?

B) Fighting for their [Bold]lives[/Bold]. Rules go out the window. It's you or him. Anybody REALLY want to fight that way? If so, please stay off the field.


2) What is the point in trying to hurt your opponent? This is supposed to be a game of skill, but too often we hear "Throw very hard, take very hard". Do this, and soon "hard" will get harder and harder, and then only certain people (big/strong) wearing certain gear (late period armour) will be able to play safely. You want to play that game? Form your own organization, and have at it. But don't risk someone else's safety to fit your "version" of the game.

The idea is a "telling blow" that gets past your guard. You get hit hard enough that you know you got hit (not tapped) through mail and an open faced helm. Telling doesn't mean "I would have injured you with a real weapon". It doesn't mean "It has to get through MY armour". It means "you were better than me - on THAT pass.

We in the SCA get off cheap. We lose so little in losing. We don't give up ransom (except in some cases for sake of "schtick"), we don't spend days and weeks recovering from a tourney. We really don't risk our lives. We don't lose our freedom, rights or property. We don't even lose honor, or glory -

All we lose is a bout.

What is the big deal?


Diolun
Midrealm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by markH:
I understand what was said about not cheating your friend by taking a poor shot, Do you think it is possible to cheat yourself by not taking shot on the lower end of things if you screwed up?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because we're supposed to be wearing armor. That's the point of armor... to protect you from such mistakes. We bear the *disadvantages* of armor (heat, weight, restrictions to motion, etc.), so we should also reap its rewards: protection fom lapses. A blow that isn't hard enough isn't hard enough, whether you let it through stupidly or not (except in a *true* case where you are helpless and your opponent taps you when he *cearly* could have nailed you.)

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Irish:
<B>Guys - Lets try to remember a couple of somethings - - -

1) In the REAL Middle Ages, these guys were either:

A) Professional Warriors - this was their "job" and trained for it appropriately, and the inherent risk accepted. Life was short, and cheap... Is yours?

B) Fighting for their [Bold]lives[/Bold]. Rules go out the window. It's you or him. Anybody REALLY want to fight that way? If so, please stay off the field.


2) What is the point in trying to hurt your opponent? This is supposed to be a game of skill, but too often we hear "Throw very hard, take very hard". Do this, and soon "hard" will get harder and harder, and then only certain people (big/strong) wearing certain gear (late period armour) will be able to play safely. You want to play that game? Form your own organization, and have at it. But don't risk someone else's safety to fit your "version" of the game.

The idea is a "telling blow" that gets past your guard. You get hit hard enough that you know you got hit (not tapped) through mail and an open faced helm. Telling doesn't mean "I would have injured you with a real weapon". It doesn't mean "It has to get through MY armour". It means "you were better than me - on THAT pass.

We in the SCA get off cheap. We lose so little in losing. We don't give up ransom (except in some cases for sake of "schtick"), we don't spend days and weeks recovering from a tourney. We really don't risk our lives. We don't lose our freedom, rights or property. We don't even lose honor, or glory -

All we lose is a bout.

What is the big deal?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The big deal is that when we degenerate into a game of tag we hurt two things: First, the validity of our martial art in general is removed, and second, we cheat our opponent of a chance to truly test and demonstrate his prowess. If anyone wants to play that game, there are plenty of schalgers around.

The premise of your remonstrance, Irish, is that we don't want to fight hard because we might hurt people. I'm sorry, but that isn't supported by the evidence. I grew up fighting in one of the hardest-hitting areas in the country, the southern region of the East, and you know what? We have no higher injury rate than Meridies or AEthelmark or any of the places they hit very light.

Turning fighting into a game of tag encourages inclusiveness, I'll admit, but I don't believe in inclusiveness.

Here are the things *I* think are truly worth considering:

1.) Our weapons and armor make serious force-related injuries (you can still twist an ankle!) rare, even in the hardest-hitting areas.

2.) Hitting harder requires that skill levels go up, because frce is a funtion of *skill*, not of size. Claiming it's only for big guys ignores the fact that most of the hardest-hitting people out there are not huge. Sure, big guys can *throw* a hard blow, but it takes skill to make that blow *land*. Notice also that there's a high correspondance between skill level and higher levels of force; that's not a coincidence.

3.) Hitting harder brings us closer to living history and further away from a fantasy party because that's what they really did.

4.) There's no honor in playing tag... anyone can do it. Honor comes from doing something hard, doing it well (which includes fairly, before anyone starts screaming!) and succeeding.

5.) There's nothing on earth wrong with wanting to win. It's the *medieval* thing to do! Your post seems to say we should worry less about winning, but that's a *very* modern idea. Medieval chivalry was *about* winning! You can't rescue the damsel in distress if you can't beat the black knight, and if you didn't kick serious butt in tournament you were going to have a *very* tough time being retained by a Lord with a great mesnie!

Hit hard. Take hard. Fight hard; fight to win (honorably and fairly!). If you want to play tag get an epee.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

OK Rhys, I guess my concers fall more toward the danger of an escalation of registration and calibration -

I'm not considered a light hitter in the Midrealm by ANY means, and I've been trained to throw in a certain range, but take somewhat lighter. I train my squires the same way. Skill will win out. Now if the opponent calls it light, then I will throw harder - to a point. If I have an opponent dead to rights (weapon pinned, unable to block), I'll give them a "gotcha tap" and let them know. Most people take it, and thank me for the courtesy.

I've seen and fought the "Throw hard / take hard" guys. Inevitably, a gorup of guys with this mentality start to spiral upward in terms of both "Throw" and "Take". This is where the problems start.

The last couple of Pennsics, we've seen an increase (on all sides) of injuries caused by blows (according to the Chiurgeons).

This is one of the reasons the Society Marshall is working to standardize calibration and registration Society-wide.

I don't think anyone is advocating turning SCA combat into a game of touch or tag - we just don't want to see an escalation of force either.

Hit solid and clean. Take solid and clean.


That's all.


Diolun

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SyrRhys:
<B> Yes, that's bad. Why would you take a blow that's light? What an insult! We're trying to be armored knights, not peasants scrabbling about in tunics. Clean doesn't damage anyone in armor; hard does. If it's not hard enough it's not good, period.

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I hope I am misunderstanding you here. This satement sounds like if you arent causing pain it is not hard enough. No one- absolutly no one should be on the field if their goal is to cause pain. This is a game we all except the risk of being hurt, but if you try and hurt me on purpose it is gonna get real ugly real quick. Please clarify, with all due respect I would not like to see an attitude such as this coming from the chivalry.

As I have said many times before, anyone approaching a level of force needed to damage a man through the silly "armour standard" needs to bring it down a notch or two.
I am one of the few people who understand where Rhys is coming from, even though I don't endorse the higher force levels I encounter at Pennsic. Like Diolun said above, many of the heavy hitters/takers start at nine, and then when things get hot and heavy start to drift into (what I consider) innapropriate levels. Things escalate quickly at almost every major SCA "war", but what I want is for people to start at 5 so that they will end up at 8.
Seriously, I understand where Rhys' ideas about inclusiveness spring from, and they come from a very highly-developed understanding of medieval traditions and realities. But as I have always said, the average person did not sign up for this level of reality. Although I know that the average fighter on the field doesn't really know that much about the Middle Ages or the culture of medieval knights, this does not cause me to view them with disdain and to dismiss out-of-hand their own vision of what this org is supposed to be. Many of these people will change and grow and contribute in countless ways over the years- some will come to see the SCA as too inclusive, or not inclusive enough.
I spit out pieces of my teeth at War last year, and many people (from many regions) proved to me that they could not stay consistent and stable at the high end of the spectrum. When pressed or faced with a bad turn of Fortune- they went over the line because they were closer to the line to begin with.
One of my jobs is to be a "shield of the weak", and as Bertrand Du Gueclin once said "Your business is with those who bear Arms, the poor, women and children are not your enemies." I admit that some of the people on the field are probably not ready, and that some of them will probably never become really adept in the use of Knightly arms. They may never even study chivalric culture at all, and some of them are 90 pound ladies. They want to be there- they want to have fun. I can't let things escalate to such a degree that the only people left on the field are the ones who would still be there if they actually had to pay ransom.
I don't mind playing *extremely* hard with certain people who I respect and who I learn a great deal from, but it's not just about us and what we want.
-Vitus


[This message has been edited by Vitus (edited 02-14-2002).]

I see where many people are coming from here.

Having been hurt in real fights, i know you can fight with multiple broken ribs, broken nose, cracked sternum, broken fingers, collar bone ectectectect. Often not even realising any pain until hours later.

So the force level requierd to actually incapacitate someone through assumed armour is incredibly high, much less white harness. Thus the one shot kill system is flawed severly, but that is another thread.

To me this is why we need to ditch the concept of a "killing blow" it is night impossible to kill someone with a single blow to an armoured area as prsented in the assumed armour standard.

A telling blow, ideology might help change the way the concept of combat is framed, after all what we do is tourney combat.

Don't get me wrong, i _don't_ want to play tag with sticks tappity tap larp, but fighting at force leves high enough to actually maim and kill through assumed armour is dangerously high for most people in the SCA.

Now at things with a smaller more focused fighter poulace, punch it up if you like. However, as Vitus said, there are lots of people fighting in the SCA that would die just marching on a period campaign, we have a duty to make sure their safe too.

We shouldn't be fencing with sticks but we don't need to go up to a truly period force leve with the general populace.

Murdock, we have people who nearly die while walking to the Woods Battle. hahahahahaha
-V

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Conrad the Mad:
<B> I hope I am misunderstanding you here. This satement sounds like if you arent causing pain it is not hard enough. No one- absolutly no one should be on the field if their goal is to cause pain. This is a game we all except the risk of being hurt, but if you try and hurt me on purpose it is gonna get real ugly real quick. Please clarify, with all due respect I would not like to see an attitude such as this coming from the chivalry.

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Yes, you're misunderstanding me. Why is it everyone thinks that when I say "hit harder" that means "cause damage or severe pain"?

Gentlemen, I *frequently* fight in lightly-padded gamboissed cuisses; I'm talking about two layers of linen and one layer of cotton batting. I also frequently fight in a quilted lentner (and no, never at the same time... please!). I get hit, and I get hit by some of the hardest-hitting monsters in the SCA. You know what? It hurts. But you know what else? It doesn't hurt much, and it doesn't cause any damage.

People *want* this game to seem more dangerous than it is because that makes them feel macho, but it just isn't. As sports go, it's pretty tame, frankly.

We can hit a lot harder than we do without causing any serious rise in injuries, and we *should*.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Thanks for the clarification.