<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus: <B> You could always take a dive.
I don't think I could take a dive for any reason without being disgusted with myself, I don't actually expect you to feel any different.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, if you do this many women will get furious with you and stomp off making claims that you hate women or something. It's kind fo funny, actually: When women were first allowed to fight in the SCA one of the things they said was that any man could refuse to fight them with no penalty; this was merely a sop to get men who thought it was wrong to beat women to accept the change of having women fight. Now that provision is completely forgotten.
Once I told a woman that she shouldn't take the shot I hit her with because it was too light (as I would do for any fighter who started to take a blow I didn't think was good), and she screamed at me for being patronizing. You can't win.
------------------ Hugh Knight "Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
I have always had mixed emotions about women fighting. The SCA made that issue simpler for me by simply allowing women to fight.
From a modern perspective I don't want any form of discrimination and therefore women should be allowed to fight. At the same time I cringe every time I see a little woman in minimal armour take a hard blow from a large man. Then I remind myself that she made her choice, no one forced her to fight and she is an adult. For the record, I worry when I see a thin, unathletic underized male in minimal armour get whacked the same way. But for some reason, I don't worry as much about the guy. I do worry about lawsuits and the end of the SCA, much the way I worry when I see undersized, unathletic people play contact sports like football.
From a historic point of view, I absolutely do not think that women should fight in tournaments, I have never seen documentation for it. So it makes our tournaments curious and ahistoric to reenactors. It also creates odd problems when the women want to fight but then be treated like a lady as soon as they step out of armour. I have however, learned to accept is as one of those very strange SCA customs.
From a practical point of view, I have worked with and encouraged many women over the years who did wish to fight. This would probably be a good time to point out that, with the exception of one lunatic in the East who is mentally ill, the women that fight have generally been much better behaved than the men and were much more concerned about fair play and "doing it right".
I do remember at one of my first Pennsics, I was not all that good a fighter, a short female fighter came up to me during pick up fights on the main battlefield. I took it easy on her and she immediately whacked me in the head. I stopped taking it easy on her and she levitated up over my shield and whacked me in the head. It was a great lesson in never underestimating any opponent.
I have never seen a woman fight at the top levels of competition in the East, Atlantia or the Middle. I have however met women that could fight a knight level consistantly (some are knights!). I am told that out of my area, some women have gotten to the point where they can compete at the upper levels within their kingdoms. If it is true, I give them a lot of credit. While the SCA does not have a very athletic base level of fitness, once you get to the upper levels, women tend to be at a severe disadvantage compared to the men. This is not a knock against women, just a comment that it is similar to modern physical sports were a skilled woman can compete with bigger, stronger men, but once you get to the top levels, the men's physical advantages coupled with equal levels of skill tend to make it impossible for the typical skilled female to win consistantly.
Then again, given the piss poor conditioning level of many of even the SCA's top 10% of the fighters, I would love to see some Olympic class female track and field athletes take up the sport and kick ass.
"LOL! It figures that some folks would take my question as proof I don't want women to fight!"
Nah, I just figured as gung-ho as you are for absolute historical accuracy for other aspects of tournament combat that you would be just as gung-ho over this one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve -SoFC-: Nah, I just figured as gung-ho as you are for absolute historical accuracy for other aspects of tournament combat that you would be just as gung-ho over this one.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, it's all a matter of priorities. *Rhys* would have run any women trying to fight in a tournament out on a rail, but I believe firmly in freedom, which means I mayn't discriminate (of course, I refuse to let them make fighting into a game of tag so they can win, too, and that hasn't earned me any friends in some corners). Just as Rhys would have thought it was OK to let people wear open-faced helmets in tournaments using face thrusts with sharp swords, but I recognize that that's too dangerous to do.
Please don't pretend that just because I want us to be better I'm not rational or reasonable; that's an old tactic: you make your opponent seem so outlandish in his claims that you can dismiss his arguments. It doesn't apply here.
------------------ Hugh Knight "Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
People often agree with your message. But they often find your wording to be insensitive, abrasive or worse. I agree with much of what you post, but often you do come across as having contempt for others. While I agree some may deserve your contempt, most do not. In person, I have found you to be a courteous individual who may be blunt, direct and forceful, but rarely intentionally rude (especially to women). Whether you realize it or not, some of your posts come across very badly not in terms of content, but in the form that message takes. It is up to you whether you choose to believe me or not. I am thrilled that you take part in this forum. But I'd be lying to you if I did not say that some of your posts are written in a manner that cause others to take offense and I don't blame them for their interpretation.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore: <B>Hi Rhys.
People often agree with your message. But they often find your wording to be insensitive, abrasive or worse. I agree with much of what you post, but often you do come across as having contempt for others. While I agree some may deserve your contempt, most do not. In person, I have found you to be a courteous individual who may be blunt, direct and forceful, but rarely intentionally rude (especially to women). Whether you realize it or not, some of your posts come across very badly not in terms of content, but in the form that message takes. It is up to you whether you choose to believe me or not. I am thrilled that you take part in this forum. But I'd be lying to you if I did not say that some of your posts are written in a manner that cause others to take offense and I don't blame them for their interpretation.
Your friend,
Richard.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rhys-
I agree with every single word of this, and would add that, in person, you are one of the *most* courteous gentlemen I have met in the SCA. I also greatly appreciate that you know the difference between "I'm sorry." and "I apologize."
I had not heard that Berengaria was the East's Princess. Please give her my best wishes when you see her next.
I agree with every single word of this, and would add that, in person, you are one of the *most* courteous gentlemen I have met in the SCA. I also greatly appreciate that you know the difference between "I'm sorry." and "I apologize."
I had not heard that Berengaria was the East's Princess. Please give her my best wishes when you see her next.
Your friend
Raymond</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry that both you and Richard, two men I respect, find my frusration at the beer and rattan crowd to have gone "over the line". I can't help it: I present people with simple facts and they take it personally. God forbid I should prevent them from playing a fantasy role-playing game. Let the do whatever in the hell hey want, I guess. You two both seem more able to tolerate the insults from such. So be it.
And Berengaria isn't princess; I think I was guilty of poor grammar here; I was saying that I helped train her and I helped train our current princess, Roxanne.
------------------ Hugh Knight "Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
Hiya Dont sweat the ones that see only what they want as their actions have already spoken for them. My lady was very pleased to see it, and as a heavy fighter of some fortitude, it behooves her ot find period examples. Though she has found some saxony references herself.
A couple more items to add to your list, though these are more than likely fiction written by a Pierre Gencien circa 1500. I already have a copy of the MSS. from the Bodleian library.
1. Tournament as dames de Paris (Pierre Gencien) Vatican City, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Ms. Lat. Regina Christina 1522, fols. 160v-172v.
2. Tournoi de Chauvency. (Oxford, Bodleian, Douce 308, fols. 107-39.)
3. Andrea Pulega, ed. Ludi e spettacoli nel Medioevo I Tornei di Dame, Cattedra di Filologia Romanza dell Universita degli Studi di Milano. (Milan: Cisalpino Goliardica, 1975)
4. Watriquet de Couvin. Tournois des dames az Chevaliers ou Paraboles de verite. (Auguste Scheler, ed. Dits de Watriquet de Couvin. Brussels: Victor Devaux & Cie, 1868. 238-71.)
5. Sarah Westphal-Wihl. (Winter, 1989) "The Ladies Tournament ... ," Signs. 14(2), 371-98. Discusses a German text similar to Gencien's.
