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Women In Tournaments

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 3:48 pm
by SyrRhys
At an event yesterday a woman asked me if there was any evidence that women actually fought in medieval tournaments. I told her about the allegorical story about the girls who dressed up like men and fought each other (I forget the source of that just now), and about games where women would pretend to guard a tower and pelt the knights attacking it with flowers, that sort of thing, but she said she wanted real evidence of women actually fighting in tournaments alongside and against men.

I don't know of any such references; has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 4:27 pm
by Otto von Teich
I've never heard or read of it being done...Otto

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:54 pm
by Templar Bob/De Tyre
The only instances I've ever heard of women fighting at all were of Matilda of Canossa, Jeanne la Hache and Jeanne de Montfort of Brittany---and that definitely wasn't tournament fighting. I don't think it happened, but even if it did, it wasn't recorded.

Sorry,



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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice
<B>Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Remember: In Living History/Reinactment, Real Life is the Great Leveler of Man.</B>

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:26 pm
by Rev. George
Or alternately, in the case of the cross dresser, they never knew it happened...

Thing I've always wondered about is how to treat the consort of a female tourneyer? (assuming said consort is male) Do they get to sit in the "fayre gallerie of ladyes faire"? should a "modern medievalist" carry tokens (similar to the roses one bestows on the ladies) for the male consorts? If so, what is appropriate?

-+G

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:12 pm
by Alcyoneus
Isabella apparently wore some armor, but the source did not mention her actually being in harm's way.

When the Grand Company of Adventurer's were in the East (Catalan Veangence), some women were listed as defending the gates from the embattlements. When men were away and castles were under siege, it would probably have been pretty common for women to have participated in this type of activity. This is quite a bit different than taking the field, however.

In Japan, women were trained in the use of the naginata for home defense under similar conditions. In standard modern kendo, this may be the standard as well.

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:44 pm
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
When the Grand Company of Adventurer's were in the East (Catalan Veangence), some women were listed as defending the gates from the embattlements. When men were away and castles were under siege, it would probably have been pretty common for women to have participated in this type of activity. This is quite a bit different than taking the field, however.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any evidence for this? Primary evidence, I mean; the Victorians were full of it (and I mean that in both senses of the phrase!). I've been looking through my library today trying to research the tournament issue, and I can't find any evidence that women fought even in castle defence. I find that they often *commanded* the castle in their husband's absence, at least in title, but none that any engaged in any combat per se.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:41 pm
by Otto von Teich
It seems like I remember Tacitus describing Germanic warriors as having their women often joining in battle against the Romans. I'm not sure about this.This would be pre medieval period for sure if it happened. I do think women may have fought when in great danger, to save their lives and children, homes ect.I dont think they would have been skilled wariors,but when dire need arises,people will tend to fight for their lives as best they can....Otto

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 10:00 pm
by Alcyoneus
I think it came out of a book called "The Catalans", it was only a small section of the book. The castle was basically garrisoned by the women, children, old men and injured when it was attacked. Of course, they taunted the attackers that women were able to hold them off. Image

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 10:36 pm
by Hushgirl
Frau Hirsch would be the one to ask. I remember something about a city who's women were given knightly orders for defending the city, and they were even given precedence over the men on state occasions, but she could tell you the specifics.

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 11:30 pm
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hushgirl:
Frau Hirsch would be the one to ask. I remember something about a city who's women were given knightly orders for defending the city, and they were even given precedence over the men on state occasions, but she could tell you the specifics.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to re-direct, I am only looking here for evidence of women fighting in tournaments; the one anecdotal reference in Plutarch notwithstanding, I have already satisfied myself about women in war.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:13 am
by Rev. George
rhys: what about bodecia? From my understanding she led a pretty large contingent of brittish celts to whup up on the romans....(of course, that could be the afformentioned plutarch reference for all I know)

-+G

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:21 am
by Murdock
That ain't a tourney, neither is Joan's situation.

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:09 am
by Owen
Why does everyone seem to remember Boudicca and Vercingetorix as having "whupped up on the Romans"? Lest anyone forget, they LOST!

That said, at least some of the Roman references to women fighting in the barbarians groups may have been an attempt to portray them as "other". It is exceedingly unlikely that any women fought in either the Roman games (although there are vague references to "private" fights with women, for the truly debauched crowd), or the military games (hard to hide being female, when emlistment includes a full physical).

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:23 am
by Egfroth
Didn't Eleanor of Aquitaine and her ladies cause a scandal by dressing in armour and having mock jousts while she was in the Holy Land?

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:30 am
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rev. George:
<B>rhys: what about bodecia? From my understanding she led a pretty large contingent of brittish celts to whup up on the romans....(of course, that could be the afformentioned plutarch reference for all I know)

-+G</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there are a fair number of references to women commanding troops in battle, especially in sieges, but it isn't clear to me there's any evidence Bodecia (sp?) actually fought herself, nor that any woman ever did so. The Plutarch reference isn't to her: he claimed to have seen a woman who fought as a common soldier in Italy (I think? It's been a while.), but there is no corroborating reference from any other source.

Oh, and by the way, the Celts got their butts *whipped* by the Romans! It's just revisionist history to claim all things celtic were glorious. ;-)

Again, however, I'm looking for references that show they actually fought in tournament.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:43 am
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Egfroth:
<B>Didn't Eleanor of Aquitaine and her ladies cause a scandal by dressing in armour and having mock jousts while she was in the Holy Land?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard they caused a scandal by wearing armor, but I didn't hear anything about any mock tournaments. Still, those would have been *mock* tournaments, and I'm looking for hard evidence about women fighting in real tournaments with and against men.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:45 am
by sarnac
Owen - Recently on the History Channel they excavated some bones from some of the arenas and the Roman Arena and found that the bones belonged to women....
They tried to assert that these women were female Gladiators....while that could be poosible .....they did not prove their case beyod doubt.

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:07 am
by Alcyoneus
But were they 'mock' tournaments because they were women, or because they ran at each other couching celery?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:14 am
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
But were they 'mock' tournaments because they were women, or because they ran at each other couching celery?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, as I said I hadn't heard that they did this (it's not my period). Regardless, the question is: Did they fight with and against men in regular tournaments?

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:20 am
by Rev. George
RE: bodecia: From my understanding bodecia DID whup up on the romans, until they sent the legions after them.

Re: celtic superiority: Ehhh... The celts were a tribal disparate group of people, Theyhad victories, and they had losses (i think they sacked rome 3 times, but got whupped up on by the returning legion the 3rd time) To believe they were "righteous warriors, fueled by the piety and righteousness of thier celtic-faerie-wicca-tarot based religion" IS revisionist history. Some history should be revised (i dont think caesar was a great historian, for example) but some shouldnt.

RE: gladatorial combat: the romans, If I'm not mistaken, regularly had women and dwarves fight in the arena. Also givent he fact the scythians had femal warriors, I can see women fighting being a good crowd drawer, ESP if she is styled as "amazon" or some such.

Re: women at war: maybe they did, maybe they didnt. Barring the time machine plans working, we'll probably never know.

-+G

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 5:58 pm
by FrauHirsch
I am busy this week, this is just some info I had laying around from various sites and sources that was easy to get to.

Certainly there are plenty of accounts of "rock chuckers and oil boilers" participating in defense of towns and castles, but there are also clear discussions of women in armor being right there in the midst of things. My thoughts are that there weren't a large percentage of female warriors, but there still is not a large percentage of women that wish to do this even within our various recreation clubs. In almost every area of medieval life over and over we find women that are the exceptions to the rules. I put the War and Tournament stuff together in one post, because practice for war is one of the earliest reasons to hold tournaments and I believe that they are tied together. For if women weren't already armed and trained for war, how would they jump out and fight a challenge in armor? How would they even have armor? Its not like they would just drop by Walmart and pick some up on the way to war. How would they know how to wield a sword, control a charger?

"It is also clear that large numbers of women accompanied the armies, sometimes working in direct support of the military effort, sometimes actually fighting alongside men. Some 4,000 from the Burgundian camp were once organized in an unsuccessful attempt to divert part of the Rhine. "These women" wrote and eye witness, "were given a banner by the Duke with a woman painted on it." and went to and fro "with banner trumpets, and pipes". There are examples of ladies of high rank fighting fully armed in battle. In 1382, a woman was killed in battle in Flanders bearing the Flemming's banner, and in 1396 a Friesian woman "dressed in blue like a madwoman" fell pierced by arrows during a battle between Friesia and Hannault.

We read following a defeat of the Burgundian army, that during their retreat "many women that were dressed in armour were struck down because they were unrecognized… many armed women, to protect their bodies and lives, exposed their breasts, proving they were not men…". " The Medieval Soldier by Gary Embleton and John Howe

The Royal Armouries Yearbook 1997 (ISBN 1366-3925) has an article by Thom Richardson on The Bridport Muster Roll of 1457. These are the names of ordinary people who were called up to the army. 174 names on the list are legible, and 5 of these (2.9%) are women. Alis Hammel has her own jack, sword, buckler, salet, bow and arrows. Alis Gare has a bow and a coat of plates."Condefer Wife" has bow, arrows, sword and buckler. Margaret Athyn and Sally Pens do not have any equipment listed, but overall 39% of the names on the list do not have any equipment listed.

This also agrees with one of the History channel shows I watched about a year ago. The show was a Medieval History: Black Plague segment. The dry English historian was using muster rolls from I believe the mid-14th c as an example of how under normal circumstances, they see 2-10% women's names on medieval muster rolls, but due to the black plague's devastation only a few years before, there was almost 30 out of the approximately 100 legible names that were female. These also had similar weapons mixes as mentioned above.

Women at Tournament
There are not many references to women in tournaments. This is true. My most recent find was a letter to 15th c Noble women who was chastised by her family for her penchant for spending way too much time fighting tournaments and battles and she needed to come home and be a good wife and put up her armor and weapons. I need to dig for this as it is buried in my files and links somewhere and I'm just not sure if I stuffed it in email, links or a doc file. It may take awhile due to my mundane schedule. This is the best reference and unfortunately if I find it after this thread dies, I'll post it in its own thread later.

Here are a few others that indicate that women did (though often in disguise) participate in the military games/tournaments/challenges:
Louise Labé(b. 1520), known as 'La Belle Cordiére', who was known for her poetry books and her musical ability. "She was skilled in military exercises and games as her brothers were, and rode with such daring that friends, in fun and admiration, called her Captaine Loys. ... Contemporary opinion was divided as to her virtue and a literary debate on the subject has continued for four hundred years."

"Agnes Hotot, (A.D. 1378? - ?). The coat of arms of the House of Dudley shows a woman in war helmet, dishelved hair hanging out, and her breasts exposed, commemorating a female champion. In the fourteenth century A.D., Agnes Hotot's father, of the House of Dudley, quarreled with another man and agreed to a lance fight to settle the affair. Upon the appointed hour, Agnes's father fell seriously ill. Agnes put on a helmet and disguised her sex, mounted her father's horse and set out for the tourney grounds. 'After a stubborn encounter,' Agnes dismounted her father's foe. When he lay on the ground, 'she loosened the stay of her helmet, let down her hair and disclosed her bussom,' so that he would know he had been conquered by a woman." (information given by Geoff Cook - geoff.cook@btinternet.com)

"Chivalry" by Maurice Keen (Yale University Press, ISBN 0-3000-03360-5)

The following is a description of "theme" tournaments that were popular. It is not an allegory about women fighting, but a tournament with an allegorical theme. There certainly is a possibility that the "wild women" were just cross-dressers, but the mention of other women participating in tournaments as part of the theme might lend just as much credence to the argument that they were young ladies dressed as wild women. The most common issue at the time was women dressing as men, not necessarily participating in male activities.

Chapter IX: Padgeatry, Tournies and Solemn Vows

"Anthony, bastard of Burgundy, at his Pas of the Femme Sauvage in 1470 made play with notions of primitive life, and with the sort of allegory that the Roman de la Rose had popularized: his "champion of the Joyous Quest" had been cured of wounds by the Femme Sauvage as he left the land of the Enfance for that of Jeunesse, and entered the lists surrounded by a troup of her "wild women". Arthurian and Carolingian themes were however the favorites of the patrons of the pas, and the tournament as one might expect. The champions of Orleans assembled at Sandricourt in 1493 threw themselves with exhuberance into the Artherian mode, riding out into the woods near the castle ('the Waste Forest') accompanied by their maidens to seek 'chance' encounters with challengers."

Chapter X p193

Ladies were admitted to the Order of the Dragon by Count of Foix, and if various deeds of arms had been achieved they were allowed to decorate their badges in the same way as Knights. The Order of St Anthony in Hainault admitted women. Order of the Garter admitted women. (references given in the book are:
1. P.S.Lewis "Une devise de chevalerie inconnue, creee par un Compte de Foix?: le Dragon" Annales du Midi, 76 (1964) 77-84
2. BR, MS Goethals 707, fo 33 vo (regulations concerning the device to be worn by knights, squires and ladies of the Order of St Anthony), and fo 39 ff (names and in some cases the arms of the knights, squires and ladies of the Order)
3. G.F.Beltz, "Memorials of the most noble Order of the Garter" (London, 1842), CCXXI-IV

Ana de Mendoza, the Princess of Eboli it is said, that at age fourteen, she fought a duel over the honor of Spain. Afterwards she was made to write to her betrothed explaining how she had lost an eye. She was also known for intrigue in the court of Phillip II.(1180-1223)

The Order of the Glorious Saint Mary was founded in Italy in 1233, and approved by Pope Alexander IV in 1261. It was the first religious order of knighthood to grant the rank of "militissa" to women. The Order was suppressed by Sixtus V in 1558. (source Women Knights in the Middle Ages)

A 1348 British chronicle tells of women 'free from matrimonial restraints' whose behavior startled the public: When the tournaments were held, in every place a company of ladies appeared in the the diverse and marvelous dress of a man, to the number sometimes of about forty, sometimes fifty, ladies from the more handsome and more beautiful, but not the better ones of the entire kingdom; in divided tunics, with small hoods, even having across their stomachs, below the middle, knives which they vulgarly called daggers placed in pouches from above. Thus they came on excellent chargers or other horses splendidly adorned, to the place of tournament. And in such manner they spent and wasted their riches and injured their bodies with abuses with ludicrous wantoness.'

This is not the best source, but how were they injuring their bodies? Where did they get Chargers?

Women at War

I didn't bother with the Ancient or Celtic references and left off the piratical ones. I also left off most of the rock chuckers and oil boilers and those who seemed to be dressing up, but not clearly part of the battle.

Early Middle Ages

"There were once women in Denmark who dressed themselves to look like men and spent almost every minute cultivating soldiers' skills." (source Saxo Grammaticus "History of the Danes" written about 1200AD.)

At the battle of Bravellir between King Harald War-tooth and his nephew Ring, three women, Hethna, Visna and Vebiorg led companies on the Danish side. (source "Women in the Viking Age" - Judith Jesch - Boydell Press - 0 85115 278 3)

What is not mentioned in any of the sites is that in a saga describing the war between the Wends and the Danes is that 1/2 the champions in that army women, but some brought armies with them. One is described as the greatest "chevalier" in all the North (because there is no adequate single word in Old Norse for "warrior on horseback".

Aethelflaed (?-918) - Aethelflaed was the daughter of Alfred the Great of England. During her father's reign, she led troops against Viking attacks and was responsible for the construction of numerous fortifications. By expanding her family's influence -- i.e., conquering most of England -- she helped her brother Edward the Elder become England's mightiest monarch (Gies and Gies, Women 23).

Sichelgaita (?-1090) Duchess Gaita of Lombardy (also known as Sichelgaita Princess of Lombardy or Sykelgaita), who died in 1090, was married to a Norman mercenary. She was a soldier and rode into battle with her husband wearing full armour. Princess Anna Comnena of Constantinople called Gaita a "formidable sight." She tolerated no insubordination from the other soldiers and threatened potential deserters with death (Gies and Gies, Women 24).

Matilda, Countess of Tuscany (also known as Matilda of Canossa) was born in Northern Italy in 1046. She learned weapons skills as a child. She first went into battle at her mother's side in 1061 defending the interests of Pope Alexander II. When her stepfather, Duke Godfrey, died in 1069 Matilda began to command armies. She is described as having led her troops personally and wielded her late father's sword. She spent some thirty years at war in the service of Pope Gregory VIII and then Pope Urban against the German Emperor Henry IV. She married twice, but had no children. She retired to a Benedictine monastery, but in 1114 when there was an uprising in the nearby city of Mantua she threatenned to lead an army against the townsfolk. She died in 1115.
(source "Battle Cries and Lullabies" - Linda Grant de Pauw - University of Oklahoma Press - 0-8061-3288-4)

In the late 11th Century there was a conflict over land in Northern France in which Isabel of Conches "rode armed as a knight". (source "Battle Cries and Lullabies" - Linda Grant de Pauw - University of Oklahoma Press - 0-8061-3288-4)

Urraca, Queen of Aragon became ruler of Leon-Castile in 1094 when her husband died. She remarried in 1098 and then spent 13 years at war with her second husband, Alfonso the Battler, to protect the inheritance rights of her son by her first marriage. She led her own armies into battle.

Teresa of Portugal, half sister of Urraca, also led her own armies into battle.

Middle Ages

Alrude, Countess of Bertinoro in Italy led her army and broke a siege at Aucona in 1172, she also took part in several battles when she returned to her own castle.

A Papal Bull of 1189 prohibited women from joining the Third Crusade, but was widely ignored. Queens Eleanor of Aquitaine (though we know she never actually engaged), Eleanor of Castile, Marguerite de Provence, Florine of Denmark and Berengaria of Navarre are known to have gone on Crusade. Guilbert de Nogent wrote a history of the Crusades and mentioned "a troop of Amazons" who accompanied Emperor Conrad to Syria as well as women Crusaders in the army of William, Count of Poitiers.

Nicola de la Haye was in charge of Lincoln Castle when rebel barons and Louis, son of the French King Philip beseiged it in 1217. She was the daughter of Baron de la Haye, hereditary castellan of Lincoln. She successfully defended the town against several rebel raids and was made sheriff of Lincolnshire in 1216.

These women are often rather proud of their abilities as is this young woman who helped the other women at the siege of La Rochelle by Henri III (13th c.). "Yea! I have heard it told of, how, for having oft repulsed her foes with a pike, she doth to this day keep the same carefully as 'twere a sacred relic, so that she would not part with it nor sell it for much money, so dear a treasure doth she hold it."

Many women formed units in which they fought. In the Royal Palace at Genoa, there were seen several cuirasses and helmets made for women, which supposedly belonged to the Genoese ladies who joined the 1301 crusade against the Turks.

High Middle Ages

Pope Boniface VIII wrote several letters in 1383 in which he mentioned Genoese ladies who were Crusaders. This somewhat corresponds withDuke Cariadoc's Islamic account that after one particular battle, the Islamic troops were surprised to find that many of the dead were armored women. Though I believe Duke Cariadoc's source was from the 2nd crusade.

Maria of Pozzuoli from "The Voice of the Middle Ages in Personal Letters 1100-1500" Edited by Catherine Moriarty ISBN 1 85291 051 8, Lennard Publishing.

"From Petrarch to Cardinal Giovanni Colonna. 23 November 1343
Of all the wonders of God,'who alone doeth great wonders,' he has made nothing on earth more marvelous than man. Of all we saw that day, of all this letter will report, the most remarkable was a mighty woman of Pozzuoli, sturdy in body and soul. her name is Maria, and to suit her name she has the merit of virginity. Though she is constantly among men, usually soldiers, the general opinion holds that she has never suffered any attaint to her chastity, whether in jest or earnest. Men are put off, they say, more by fear than respect.
Her body is military rather than maidenly, her strength is such as any hardened soldier might wish for, her skill and deftness unusual, her age at its prime, her appearance and endeavor that of a strong man. She cares not for charms but for arms; not for arts and crafts but for darts and shafts; her face bears no trace of kisses and lascivious caresses, but is ennobled by wounds and scars. Her first love is for weapons, her soul defies death and the sword.
She helps wage an inherited local war, in which many have perished on both sides. Sometimes alone, often with a few companions, she has raided the enemy, always, up to the present, victoriously. First into battle, slow to withdraw, she attacks aggressively, practises skilful feints. She bears with incredible patience hunger, thirst, cold, heat, lack of sleep, weariness; she passes nights in the open, under arms; she sleeps on the ground, counting herself lucky to have a turf or a shield for pillow. She has changed much in a short time, thanks to her constant hardships. I saw her a few years ago, when my youthful longing for glory brought me to Rome and Naples and the king of Sicily. She was then weaponless; but I was amazed when she came to greet me today heavily armed, in a group of soldiers. I returned her greeting as to a man I didn't know. Then she laughed, and at the nudging of my companions I looked at her more closely; and I barely recognized the wild, primitive face of the maiden under her helmet. (Moriarty 143-4)

In 1429 Isabella of Lorraine led an army to free her husband Rene, Duke of Anjou, who had been imprisoned by the Duke of Burgundy. She later took to the field to fight for Rene's recognition as King of Sicily. Her daughter Margaret of Anjou (1430-1482) married Henry VI of England and defended the Lancastrians during the War of the Roses. Leading her armies she defeated both the Duke of York and the Earl of Warwick. In 1471 she landed at Weymouth expecting to join her forces with those of Jasper Tudor, but his army was delayed and Margaret's greatly outnumbered forces were defeated at Tewkesbury. She fled the battlefield on foot carrying her infant son and eventually escaped with him to Flanders. She raised a new army and returned to England where she fought for a number of years before being captured by the Yorkists, who allowed Louis XI of France to ransom her after obtaining her oath that she would cease fighting

Caterina Sforza (also known as Catherine or Katherina) was the daughter of the Duke of Milan. She married Girolamo Riaro, nephew of Pope Sixtus IV. She is said to have excelled in boisterous athletic sports. In 1483 she defended her husband's territory from the Venetians. While seven months pregnant she held a fortress at St Angelo after the death of Pope Sixtus until his successor could claim it. After her husband's death she was sole ruler of Forli and Imola in Italy in the name of her son. She fought in many campaigns. She refused to surrender in return for safe passage during one seige. She was captured in 1500 and eventually released in 1501. She died in 1509.

Early Modern

Hernan Cortés' army in Mexico in 1521 included Spanish and Mayan women some of whom fought with the army. Beatriz de Pardes was a nurse, but on occasion fought in the place of her husband, Pedro de Escoto. María de Estrada was noted for her valor at the battle of the bridges on the noche triste.

Lilliard led the Scots at the Battle of Ancrum in 1545 She killed the English commander but was killed herself later in the battle.

In 1568, two sisters, Amaron and Kenau Hasselaar, led a battalion of 300 women who fought on the walls and outside the gates to defend the Dutch city of Haarlem against a Spanish invasion.

Dona Catalina de Erauso of San Sebastian left a nunnery in 1596 and travelled to Peru where she became a soldier of fortune. She used sword, knife, and pistol, and fought in battles and in duels. She died around 1650.

Undated, but probably middle ages
When Mahomet, King of the Turkes, was waging war upon the Venecians, some of his troops attacked the city of Coccino on the isle of Metelino.
" in the same Cittie was a young maide, who seeing her father slaine by the Turkes in this fight, and the Citizens beginning to fainte and feare, got into the former companies, and skirmished so couragiouslye with the Turkes, that all the Citizens ashamed to see themselves overcome in stoutness and courage by a simple girle, tooke hart and utterly destroyed their enemies, and saved the Cittie."

In the war between the Turkish Selim Sultan and the Persians, which the Turks won, "found among them that were taken and dead, and infinite company of Persian Gentlewomen that were come all armed as Knights, to fight with their husbands".

LINKS/References:

These were liberally gleaned from various websites and books, which include:

"Women at War" http://members.tripodnet.nl/womenandwar/

"Iothene Experimental Archeology- Women as Warriors in History" http://members.tripodnet.nl/womenandwar/start.html

http://homepages.shu.ac.uk/~conseal/articles/art_031.htm "Fighting Women" Unofficial article of the Federation of the Wars of the Roses Society

Stephan's Florelegium - Women-Battle-Art: Article: Women and the Art of Battle in the Late Middle Ages by Robin Anderson of Ross (Robin E. Craig):

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 6:17 pm
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
<B>I am busy this week, this is just some info I had laying around from various sites and sources that was easy to get to.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting, so it's just as I thought: Other than the questionable Petrarch reference (only questionable because it's not corroborated by another source) there are a handful of vague references (vague in the sense that "martial pursuits" can refer to skill in handling a horse or the skill of handling a sword, but doesn't define either) there are a few references to women in leadership roles but almost none where that actually fight (although one would assume that the ones dressed in armor who were wounded would have at least *tried* to defend themselves), and *none* of women fighting in tournaments.

Thank you; that's exactly what I expected.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 6:20 pm
by Alcyoneus
Ah, the words "Prove It" do indeed lead to much valuable research! Image

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 6:30 pm
by FrauHirsch
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SyrRhys:
<B> Interesting, so it's just as I thought: Other than the questionable Petrarch reference (only questionable because it's not corroborated by another source) there are a handful of vague references (vague in the sense that "martial pursuits" can refer to skill in handling a horse or the skill of handling a sword, but doesn't define either) there are a few references to women in leadership roles but almost none where that actually fight (although one would assume that the ones dressed in armor who were wounded would have at least *tried* to defend themselves), and *none* of women fighting in tournaments.

Thank you; that's exactly what I expected.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! I knew I had no chance of convincing you and that you'd make up some excuse not to give any credibility to actual scholars. You'd made up your mind already.

Yeah, that Gary Embleton and those Oxford scholars don't know nearly as much as YOU! ROTFL!

Why do you hate women so much?

Juliana

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 6:50 pm
by sebastian
"just some info I had laying around"
FrauHirsch

Geeze! I would hate to see what she gives us after she looks!

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:17 pm
by Hushgirl
With a little luck...shame to waste it all on somebody who doesn't bother to read it.

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:38 pm
by FrauHirsch
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hushgirl:
With a little luck...shame to waste it all on somebody who doesn't bother to read it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't post it for him in any case. It was posted for all the Ladies who lurk out there on the archive and for all the guys who support us on the field.

In reality, it doesn't matter one whit what Rhys does or does not think of women on the the battle field or in the tournament, nor what he thinks of this documentation. Women are allowed to fight in the SCA, many other recreation groups, and even a few hard core re-enactment groups. That battle was fought even before my time. I'm pretty sure Trude and Mary were already Knights by the time I joined.

Dang that Mary could kick some booty! Saw her run down the field in full plate with full chain shirt underall, and just kick some major booty on some Knights on our side.

Copy it off, save it, pass it on.

-J

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:09 pm
by Sieur Raymond
Certainly, much of what was posted is vague or clearly refers to women as leaders rather than frontline combatants, and most of it related to warfare rather than tournament, but Rhys, are you truly prepared to say that the information FrauHirsch presented does not constitute *any* evidence of female participation in tournament? It strikes me that there is at *least* an interesting suggestion of the rare (and scandalous) case of such.

I assume that you will provide the material to your initial questioner for discussion. I'd be curious to read about her reaction.

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:13 pm
by Guest
I can assure you fine ladies that a few folks in the National Park Service rue the day when a ranger "busted" a soldier reenactor for being a woman as she stepped into (...or was it out of?) the ladies room at Antietam!

On the other claw, it led to a lot of valuable research about women's roles in the WBTS, all of which was enlightening to the stereotypical view.

I'm probably going to have to quit reenacting the 6th century soon. After all, I have fillings in my teeth, I have teeth, I'm over 50 (...one study of over 100 graves had only three women and no men over 50!) and I'm lacking the required internal and extrnal parasites. The last can be arranged, however. Image

Interesting situation on the longship: The men have more strength, but the women have more endurance. About the third day I rely more and more on the women. I just love an English scholar's statement on the Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain: "Of course the women would not have rowed."

("Excuse me love; after you've mucked out the byre and helped load the cargo, please let me row us to Britain. I don't want you to roughen your hands.")

We all come with our own mental furniture. Some folks just let theirs wear out, rather than try a new arrangement or replace part of it. It's much more comfortable that way. Image

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Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:30 pm
by chef de chambre
Hi FrauHirsch,

It was a rarity for women to be combatants, but it did happen No reasonable scholar I know of doubts this. There is the example of the woman who's name escapes me, but who served as a soldier disguised, was discovered to be a woman(this occued in the 1440's), and when exposed played a con game of being Joan of Arc. Carried it off successfully till she was taken in fron of Charles VII, and he said "My dear Maid, I am so glad to see you alive! After all these years of thinking you dead. Now please tell me what you told me when we were alone and first met...." She immediatly confessed her subterfuge. She was viewd as an oddity, and a novelty,m and was taken into the bodyguard of some Cardinal, and eventually made her way to Rome & into the Popes presence. She served for years in the capacity of a bodyguard, and she has descendants alive today.

That said, it was rare, it was frowned upon to say the least(Joan was burned for wearing mens clothes at last). For this reason, most reenactment groups discourage disguised women - precisely because they are trying to represent the norm, and these women soldiers are outside the norm.

FYI, the women at Grandson in CHarles the Bolds Army. There was a damned good reason for this - Charles had expelled all women from camp after incidents during the Siege of Neuss convinced him their presence was detrimental to the army (he was almost killed in a brawl between two longbowmen over a woman). This left the women who normally followed their husbands with their children (they had no other means of support) to either beg or be prostitutes. A number apparently decided to disguise themselves and follow their spouses.

Of course Charles orders didn't apply to the mistresses and courtesans of the lords, who's perfumed and silked presence caused more of a stir to the Swiss than the disguised women did. The Swiss traditionaly supplied a corps of young women with any contingent to cook, launder, and be Medics, and there is evidence that they occassionaly 'fought' as skirmishers with weapons not requiring a lot of physical strength - such as handgonnes.

As to the Bridgenorth roll, that is no good evidence for your point. By law, those are most likely widows who are heads of household, and were expected to maintain the equipment. They would most likely have supplied a man (as was common for wealthy householders supplying a 'substitute' for a twon contingent) to use the gear, rather than use it themselves. The English are your least likely place to find actual women soldiers - campaigns were of short duration during the WoR, and oppotrunities would be fewer to take up an unusual role.

John Pastons wife had her husband send handgonnes, crossbows, bills, jacks and sallets to defend one of their properties from the Molyens (thier rivals for John Fastolf's inheritance), and was obviously prepared to defend the place herself, as she had no soldiers for the task, but a few grooms and maids.

Just to put in a balanced view here. Yes, it happened (woman soldiers), but it was very, very rare. Most cases occur during the defence of a town or castle.

There is absolutely no evidence that Margeret of Anjou ever wore harness or bore weapons herself - in fact the Beaufort Dukes of Somerset acted as her Constable in her campaigns. She did ride with the troops, but anything other than that is undocumentable.



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Bob R.

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:55 pm
by FrauHirsch
Chef, I accept that it is an exception and know that an army wouldn't be typically filled with women in armor. I introduced my post with that statement. But as you said, no reasonable scholar doubts that it happened.

The SCA covers a broad time period and region, there is of course more leeway for exceptions than in a normal re-enactment group. The numbers are more likely to support the occasional exception. In re-enacting, we portray the "average" people as a goal, and unless the numbers of people in the group support the percentage for an exception, they aren't allowed.

In the SCA, exceptions tend to be the rule. In any case, typically we end up with only a few women fighting in armored combat out of hundreds of men. And many of those have ancient and early medieval personas.

Historically in the SCA this argument has been used to try to ban women from participating, or sometimes just to humiliate and embarrass, even while Bubba the Barbarian and JoBob the Viking are not cornered and yelled at...

Cap'n Atli, I've also seen women who could totally pass off the cross dressing! I've also seen a lot of women that were indistinguishable from men when in armor.

- Juliana

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:01 pm
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sieur Raymond:
<B>Certainly, much of what was posted is vague or clearly refers to women as leaders rather than frontline combatants, and most of it related to warfare rather than tournament, but Rhys, are you truly prepared to say that the information FrauHirsch presented does not constitute *any* evidence of female participation in tournament? It strikes me that there is at *least* an interesting suggestion of the rare (and scandalous) case of such.

I assume that you will provide the material to your initial questioner for discussion. I'd be curious to read about her reaction.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure there is; I never said there wasn't. I just said the evidence wasn't hard. That's why I qualified it as I did.

I do hope to speak with the young lady again; I had to tell her I wasn't sure, and I dislike having to do that.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:25 pm
by Steve S.
Does anyone have any documentation to support noble female women traveling on Crusade? Even better, with Templars acting as escort for noble female pilgrims?

SyrRhys: Do you think women should be allowed to participate in SCA combat?

Steve

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:45 pm
by SyrRhys
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve -SoFC-:
SyrRhys: Do you think women should be allowed to participate in SCA combat?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely! For all my insistance that we do things authentically, this is one are where medieval sensibilities must take second place to the fact that gender-based discrimination is wrong. I have trained several female fighters, including the famous Mistress Berengaria, probably the best female fighter the East has ever produced, and our current crown princess.

I have to admit that I, *personally* dislike beating women, but they have an *absolute* right to fight if they want.

LOL! It figures that some folks would take my question as proof I don't want women to fight!

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 1:01 am
by Alcyoneus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SyrRhys:
<B> I have to admit that I, *personally* dislike beating women, but they have an *absolute* right to fight if they want.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could always take a dive. Image

I don't think I could take a dive for any reason without being disgusted with myself, I don't actually expect you to feel any different.