The Armour Archive

--------------- SCA Specific ------------


At a local Tourney the question came up about using a shield against the body of the opponent.

The Society Rules state:

"D. A shield may be used to displace, deflect, or immobilize an opponent’s shield or weapon, so long as such use does not endanger the safety of the combatants. Deliberately striking an opponent’s head, limbs, or body with a shield is forbidden, unless that shield is designed for use as a weapon, and is approved by the Kingdom Marshallate."

It leads to the question if "PLACING" your shield against the body of the opponent is the same as "STRIKING." I personally feel that the SPIRIT of the rule is to keep us from hurting our friends. I read it as STRIKING in the sense that there is a chance to injure your friend.

However, I can see that the other side of the coin in that the act of placing your shield against the body could result in an injury. Example. I have been taught to PLACE my shield in the front of the shoulder of my kneeling opponent to keep him from being able to swing effectively. I could see that this could result in injuring his arm if not done carefully.

So I ask you, what is your opinion on the rule?

---Note--- I labelled the topic so others would not waste their time with responses about what is period and what is not. This is purely about rules interpretation.

Giles of Redheugh

Well, the customs vary from kingdom to kingdom and when you started fighting. In the Outlands, where I came up, it was ok put your shield just like you said, or to place your shield in the crook of someones elbow to impede the wrap. I got a bit of a talking to here in Drachenwald the first time i did that, tho. The intent of the rule is to prevent shield smashing, it's prolly one of those things that Nasr needs to clarify.
slainte,
Fearghus

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"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
Fearghus's Homepage

An Tir's rules specifically stated something to the effect of:

"Placing your shield in such that your opponent must hit in order to throw a normal blow is forbidden".

I used to do this a lot with a strap on round shield, I would get in real close plant my chest against my opponents shield, stick the edge of my shield in their armpit and wrap the hell out of them. Had to stop when I moved to An Tir because the rules were written in such a way that it was directly illegal.

Personally I wouldnt have a problem with it, but ya gotta follow the rules.

Cedric

Hi Giles,

This is a good question, and it gives us an opportunity for us to move our fighting to a more authentic level (to comment on your last paragraph).

First, let me say that I will probably *never* argue for striking with the shield, however authentic a practice it might be. The way we construct our shields, I feel this would just be too dangerous, and while I'm open to someone coming up with a shield that would be safe for this purpose, I suspect it would require changes that make a shield look ridiculous, and thus defeat the attmpt at authenticity.

That having been said, I have looked at the regs with apparently the same eye you have. I think it's clear that the spirit of the law is just as you say it is, to keep us from hurting our opponents with a shield *strike*. I think that shield *placing* is a good step to move us gradually toward shield *pushes*. By pushes, I mean placing the shield against your opponent and then using moderate force to move him. I recognize that this is a dangerous tactic in that it might lead sloppy fighters to just go ahead and strike with their shields, so I think it requires some careful experimentation, but I think that's where we should head.

Unforunately, in some places the taboo against shield striking is so strong that even placing your shiled in such a way that your opponent runs into it is viewed as breaking the rules, so I think we have a long way to go.

Good question!

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

In the kingdoms (Atlantia, Aethelmarc) that I've spent most of my time, the *accepted practice* is that placing is OK, pushing or striking is not. I quite often close and place my shield in my opponent's sword-side armpit to hinder their blows. If they advance on that side, it's my responsibility to move my shield out of their way; and besides, why would I want to stop them from opening their head for an offside?

- Kyle

I actually fully agree with Syr Rhys here. (crazy aint it.) but there are ways to use your shield now which accomplish almost the same things you mentioned above, hooking/pressing their sheild or sword/basket hilt is legal...at least in Meridies...so if you can manage to step in on an opponent and get your shield on his basket hilt it opens up several of the options discussed above. and oddly enough if you can get your shield centered on their basket hilt, the edge will usually end up in the crook of their elbow. you just have to be able to keep the shield on the weapon, if they get the weapon free, you gotta get your shield outa there. though I'm by no means an expert on agressive shield use, but I am a student of it.

Ulrich

Welp Ulric beat me to it.

We basically do it any way, you just push against their shield and/ hook their sword.
It's safe and no contact to the body.

I agree with this:

<<< I have been taught to PLACE my shield in the front of the shoulder of my kneeling opponent to keep him from being able to swing effectively. >>>
This is exceptable to me because your not striking me, I’m striking you.

but not this:

<<< "Placing your shield in such that your opponent must hit in order to throw a normal blow is forbidden". >>>
How can this rule even be enforced? If my opponent steps to the side and raps me I can’t (by this rule) move my shield to block him because he would end up hitting it to strike me. I could legally side step and rap people, only to win by default because my opponent placed his shield illegally (in a position where I had to hit it to strike him). Yes I realize this rule is probably geared towards offensive moves, but you would have to follow it both ways. It’s pushing it beyond reason –but I would be right in a “by the rulesâ€

In my part of Ansteorra (and I think most of the rest of it too although I don't live there) its the "place it don't strike with it."

That rule in An Tir would suck.

Yeah, what JP said. I'd say Ansteorra is place, control, don't strike.

Out of curiousity, how do you all feel about the reverse; I will sometimes body check an opponent's shield when fighting great sword or polearm. As far as I understand the rules, it's legal, and have been told so. Usually, I do it when someone charges me, and instead of backing off like they think I will, I plant and shove.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Owen:
<B>Out of curiousity, how do you all feel about the reverse; I will sometimes body check an opponent's shield when fighting great sword or polearm. As far as I understand the rules, it's legal, and have been told so. Usually, I do it when someone charges me, and instead of backing off like they think I will, I plant and shove.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Part of my repotoire, and fully legal.

JP and I are the kind of guys who don't mind it a bit on the rough side. I don't care if I win or lose, I just wanna have fun, and as far as I'm concerned, this IS a CONTACT sport.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Morgan:
JP and I are the kind of guys who don't mind it a bit on the rough side. I don't care if I win or lose, I just wanna have fun, and as far as I'm concerned, this IS a CONTACT sport. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too true... and really in general Ansteorra (yeah I know you're an import Morgan but ya fit right in) seems to be a rough-n-tumble too. Didn't realise till I went to some other areas they are are like "whoa whoa whoa whoooooaaa! We don't do that here"

I think when I went out to the Mission FP in the Kingdom of the West and I had legged somebody and come right in and sheild pressed them... The knight in question (I'm sure he was an archiver) was cool with it, but told me that was a little bit out of orthodoxy there.

Owen wrote:

<<< Out of curiousity, how do you all feel about the reverse; I will sometimes body check an opponent's shield when fighting great sword or polearm. As far as I understand the rules, it's legal, and have been told so. Usually, I do it when someone charges me, and instead of backing off like they think I will, I plant and shove. >>>

I have no problem with this so long as you plant and push -not punch! I had my ankle broken by someone who literally punched my shield so hard that he knocked me back some 5-10 feet, breaking my ankle in the process. It was just too excessive in my opinion.

I plan on picking up greatsword again this summer and want to work on this plant and shove tactic -of coarse I won't have too much luck since I am a whooping 5'7", 140lb, weakling.

(^_^)

When I fight mace I like to plant my shield in the front crook of the arm/torso and tie up my opponants weapon. I have to be very carefull because even though I don`t strike with the shield, I have had folks whine about it. Overall though I think it is accepted here in the Northern region of the East. Personaly I would like to see more aggresive shield work alowed. I have to agree with Sir Rhys that striking with the shield should stay a no-no, but pushing? I see no problem.
As far as having my shield body checked by greatweapon fighters? No problem here. Considering the invulnerable nature of SCA shields, I fully support the use of an aggressive defensive tactic like that. As with aggresive shield tactics, just use apropriate force so no one gets hurt.
John

Awwww....I think I'm gonna cry. Funny thing is, I've been in Ansteorra now more than I was in Northshield.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jean Paul de Sens:
Too true... and really in general Ansteorra (yeah I know you're an import Morgan but ya fit right in) seems to be a rough-n-tumble too. .</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

I have no problem with someone placing their shield anywhere around me (i.e. positioning it so that my arm jams into his shield if I try to swing) - that's just good tactics
If an opponent keeps his shield off my person (I'm usually carrying a polearm or hand and a half sword)then they can place it as close as they choose, and if I move into it that is my problem, not theirs. If I am carrying a shield then shield presses/snaches/slams are fine and dandy, and bring me back to my youth.
On the third hand if someone slams their shield into me, or places it on me and pushes I assume that they have no real problem with my displacing their shield, by locking and twisting, or driving them back with a series of sholder strikes into their shield (hand an a half sword), or moving them by placing a halberd haft on their faceplate and shoving up and back
Oddly with this philosophy I have been able to enjoy either strenuous fights, or polite fights depending on my opponents preferences

If pushing with the shield were allowed, I imagine we'd see a lot of "agressive" pushing in short order, up to and including outright striking, with excuses like "he moved into my push".

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Pushing IS allowed. We do NOT see that. This is of course, just my opinion.

Morgan- what is the actual rule for shield pushing in Ansteorra?

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Here's the rule. It may be a slightly liberal interpretation of this rule that allows one to place their shield on the weapon arm of one's opponent and push to control the weapon, but the intent is pretty clear. The typo is actually in the rule book, so I included it.

Section 2, I.A.6
A shield or buckler may be used to displace, deflect or immobilize an opponent's shield, buckler, or weapon, so long as such use does not endanger the safety of the Combatants. Deliberately striking an opponent with a shield or buckler is forbidden, unless that shield or buckler is designed to be used as a weapon. A shield or buckler designed to be utilized as a weapon (is) prohibited in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.

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"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

umm, allowing pushing with the shield would be an EXTREMELY liberal interpretation of that rule. It seems to me that if you're not striking with it, you're grappling, and under the rules, which isn't allowed either. I can't push you with my hand, can I?

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Okay,

While I can understand Rhys' desire for more authentic fighting and my own desire for a rough and tumble game, in tourney fighting I see it as ugly and unnecessary.

It is verboten by rule and custom in Central West. I don't need to push my opponent with my shield. I WILL hook or press his weapon or shield though. I believe this is a more gentlmanly way to fight. And more fun too. I'm big enough to maul most fighers. I'd rather not. Speed, timing and accuracy is more fun.

Wars are the place to play it rough and tumble. I would love to do more, even grappleing and gentle throws if possible.

Yes, this is a hot button for me. Just ask Gethin.

-Sir Parlan

I guess it's pretty hard to "tell" you want I mean by "push" in this instance. If I wanted to knock someone backwards, I could do that. I don't mean to suggest that we "push" that hard. It's when 2 fighters end up in that open stance that makes them both look like big cactuses...you know, arms up in a Y, my sword on the outside of your sheild, your sword on the outside of my sheild (usually)..there's contact there. There's a little pushing and controlling going on.

I'm just telling you "the way it is in Ansteorra"...no, we don't happen to think it's at ALL an EXTREMELY liberal interpretation of that rule. But then again, many of our rules tend to be more "common sense" oriented. Like we don't have a 90 degree rule, we have an "excessive force" rule. Well, we don't have a problem with a little pushing, because this IS a CONATACT SPORT. But we don't see it get out of hand either. And I'm sure someone would say something if it started. THat's just how it is.

Parlan: Trying to understand something. You'll PULL your opponents shield or weapon with a hooking motion, but you won't push? I do happen to agree with your statement that speed, timing and accuracy are more fun. I'd add strategy and technique. But I do have to say that a vigerous inside mauling can be a blast too.

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"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Morgan:
<B>
Parlan: Trying to understand something. You'll PULL your opponents shield or weapon with a hooking motion, but you won't push?
</B>

Oh, we do push (we call it a 'press'). But it is only shield-to-shield or shield-to-weapon. Shield-to-body is not cool. That being said, is it okay in my book to play an inside game, maybe get your shield inside a guy's sword arm? Sure. Just don't push the guy around with it and don't punch him.


<B> I do happen to agree with your statement that speed, timing and accuracy are more fun. I'd add strategy and technique. But I do have to say that a vigerous inside mauling can be a blast too.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he he. Well said on all points.

-Sir Parlan

I believe we're in complete agreement. That'd what I'm talking about...my shield inside my opponents sword arm. But it's not just sitting there. I'm actively trying to control his sword hand. NEVER punching. Never "pushing the guy around." But if he starts to raise his sword, I'll push out or back (at his sword, hand or arm normally from the elbow to the hand) to make it impossible to hit me. That's all I'm saying. So yeah, no shield to body, just shield to weapon or weapon arm or shield to shield.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Parlan:
<B> Oh, we do push (we call it a 'press'). But it is only shield-to-shield or shield-to-weapon. Shield-to-body is not cool. That being said, is it okay in my book to play an inside game, maybe get your shield inside a guy's sword arm? Sure. Just don't push the guy around with it and don't punch him.
-Sir Parlan

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Morgan:
<B>I believe we're in complete agreement. That'd what I'm talking about...my shield inside my opponents sword arm. But it's not just sitting there. I'm actively trying to control his sword hand. NEVER punching. Never "pushing the guy around." But if he starts to raise his sword, I'll push out or back (at his sword, hand or arm normally from the elbow to the hand) to make it impossible to hit me. That's all I'm saying. So yeah, no shield to body, just shield to weapon or weapon arm or shield to shield.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


We're close. I would hook and press the sword or quillions but not the hand or arm.

It's a fine line of difference. Frankly, I am more of a range fighter. In close is not as effective for me. No thrusting tips.

-Sir Parlan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Owen:
<B>umm, allowing pushing with the shield would be an EXTREMELY liberal interpretation of that rule. It seems to me that if you're not striking with it, you're grappling, and under the rules, which isn't allowed either. I can't push you with my hand, can I?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me? no. My shield? yes.

My point exactly. If I can't push YOU with my hand (that's grappling), I can't with my shield.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

I guess what I've been trying to say, Owen, is that we're not REALLY PUSHING per se. Contact, yes. WEll, frankly there woulnd't be contact if your sword arm wasn't up. Controlling. But not a hell of a lot of pushing. As Parlan said, a fine line. Perfectly legal and acceptable here, and we don't have any trouble with it.

I personally like shield hooks/presses to an opponent's shield/weaponry. However bodily contact leaves way too much open and moves it closer to grappling. If you are good enough there are so many different ways to push, pull, and impede an opponent if you were allowed to maintain shield contact. The grey area usually comes into play when punch blocking an opponent's shot and it hits their arm. Were you fully extended when their arm impacted the edge of your shield? Of course it can hurt them a lot too. Of course you would get someone who would place their door shield up against a person's head/body/sword arm and just leave it there while they threw their shots. Of course there is always the idea that pushing leads to pushing back, harder.

Most of the shield contact issues occur when people are fighting from their knees. Albeit a very foolish "recreation" in the first place(fighting when "legged"), it is extremely easy to disable an opponent by placing your shield against their sword arm. I have also seen how easy it is you cause someone to hyper extend their elbow when their arm contacts you shield mid wrap. I have had plenty of people try and place their shield in my arm, chest, or even head. Some of them became aware a little too late that such a position leaves my shield edge in their crotch, however.

Hehe...I suppose this picture would make most of you scream with concern:

[img]http://mike.thelostfrayman.net/King_Champion_01_2002/SMALL/images/KC012002_03_10.jpg[/img]

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"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 02-19-2002).]

The only thing I can't fathom is why the knight and the other marshal are letting those two do this.

Unless of course, the knight is simply taking mental notes for the next chivalry meeting "...so then the idiot puts his shield on the other idiots head, then he..." "Never get a belt in this kingdom. Never." "OK, which one of you lucky guys gave this genius a squire's belt?".

Yup. Should be good fun.

Richard,

I am surprised you are being so critical of one still shot photo.

There are many reasons how anyone, regardless of training, could get into that position.

Giles