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Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:47 pm
by Sigifrith Hauknefr
dukelogan wrote:anyway, when the head of an arrow comes off and (this time) hits someone in the teeth or the eye (nevermind our spectators of course) i think you will understand his point.
Yeah, maybe. Do you think CA is safer than sitting in the lower deck of at a typical (college/minors or higher level... not t-ball) baseball game?
BTW, I thought of you some recently... because I was hit in my left elbow cop behind a 29" centergrip round _3_ times in the last week! (once hard enough to leave a bruise though spring steel + foam) Now it goes without saying that the user of the shield in this case (me) was obviously defective... but I still thought it was funny.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:31 am
by Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle
Duncan wrote:Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle wrote:
BTW- Jousting in the SCA. Rapier and Cut and Thrust in Calontir. Two other things that ain't never going to happen.
Uilleam
(Waffle)
Calontir is currently experimenting with Cut and Thrust.
I know, that is exactly the point of my statement. Face Thrusts, Combat Archery, Jousting, Rapier, and Cut and Thrust in Calontir are examples of things that have been said, over the years, that are never going to happen. Yet, they have, do, and other things of this nature are contantly being developed, and more power to em.
Now, if they can just get that flail experiment refined, and we can finally expose the real truth behind the SCA BOD "Everyone must wear full plate armor as a minimum standard." conspiracy theory, we will finally getting somewhere in this organization.
Uilleam
(Waffle)
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:34 am
by Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle
Zafir al-Th'ib wrote:...and yes, in Meridies and Gleann Abhann there is no such thing as a "light" or "glancing" face thrust.
Lucky for those two places, a rather large scale experiment has been ongoing in, well, every single other Kingdom in the Known World regarding the relative safety of non-touch facethrusts in SCA combat. Despite the exponential escalation of risk such a practice, the rest of the Known World has been able to somehow avoid the steady stream of paralyzations and deaths that positive force facethrusts must inevitably cause. I suspect conspiracy.
Great. Experimentation, with good safety standards and controls is wonderful. I have no problem with it. It is also the reason the SCA, overall, has the safety record it has for the number of years it has been doing heavy combat.
The reality for face thrusts is: Whether your kingdom's standards are "touch", "positive force", "significant degree of hardness", or however your kingdom defines it, the fighter receiving the blow knows they got thrust in the face. Even a, so called, "touch" has a degree of force behind it. Regardless of the strength it should be called. For safety reasons if for no other; i.e.: the "light blow" factor. The one word I hate to hear in a fight after delivering a face thrust is "light ". It means they want me to hit them harder. While I am willing to comply with this request on almost any other area of their body, not to the face. The risks are, to me, just too great.
For many years it was a contention between Meridies and the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids because face thrust were not allowed in the Midrealm.
Speaking of which, I was living in the Middle at the time when it was proposed the Midrealm begin allowing facethrusts. The level of hysteria in some quarters is almost impossible to overstate. I have vivid memories of local fighters swearing that this would be the end of the SCA.
Maybe it was. Maybe, we are actually in an alternate universe SCA. Same kinda things happen here, but in different areas. The most common one I have heard, over the years, whenever there is an SCA wide change in armor standards (like going from basketball pads to hard armor for joints) is the old "It's a conspiracy to make us all wear full plate as the minimum standard." However, I actually haven't heard that one in a number of years.
They were wrong. Positive force facethrusts can, apparently, be done in relative safety. Obviously, each Kingdom can make up whatever extra rules each likes; if you claim it's simply an artifact of local culture, there's not much anyone can say about that. But your defense of this practice on grounds of grave danger is absurd..
Maybe they can. I have received face thrusts of every degree of hardness and have never been injured, shaken, but not injuried. As I stated above my main problem is with the ability to call a face thrust "light". To me, the arguement of "If you just touched the faceplate/grille of my helm means there wasn't enough power to actually damage my face." is just as absurd. The fact that I got through your defences, with control, and touched you in the face means I could have hit you much harder, but didn't. I can't tell you how many times I have looked at a fighter across from me and told them not to call a face thrust because my arm was at full extension, and while the thrust did touch them it would not have actually reached their face, or done damage.
There are many times in the history of heavy combat where rules or restrictions have been instituted because people saw the potental for problems not as a reaction to the result of those problems. At one time it was that fighters were allowed to call a leg blow by continuing to fight by hopping around on one leg. To my knowledge, no one ever really got hurt doing that, but for some reason they made a rule against it. I wonder why.
Edited: Spelling. Twice.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:49 am
by Diglach Mac Cein
Sigifrith, Nissan -
I haven't noticed a lot of difference at Blackstone or Pennsic facing guys from other Kingdoms from what I face from other Midrealmers at our events.
Logan - I'll pass your opinion on to the Midrealm fighting community. I'm sure we'll give it all due consideration.
I have fun, my opponents seem to have fun. That pretty much makes it all good for me.
.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:59 am
by Zafir al-Th'ib
Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle wrote:The one word I hate to hear in a fight after delivering a face thrust is "light ". It means they want me to hit them harder. While I am willing to comply with this request on almost any other area of their body, not to the face. The risks are, to me, just too great.
...
I have received face thrusts of every degree of hardness and have never been injured, shaken, but not injuried.
Again, we have a preponderance of evidence to suggest these risks are all in your head, and that positive-force facethrusts are as safe as anything else we do. I would say your 'N' of one doesn't matter, but it turns out you yourself have been hit in the face a number of times with absolutely no ill effects. So you don't have even personal anecdote on your side.
As I stated above my main problem is with the ability to call a face thrust "light". To me, the arguement of "If you just touched the faceplate/grille of my helm means there wasn't enough power to actually damage my face." is just as absurd. The fact that I got through your defences, with control, and touched you in the face means I could have hit you much harder, but didn't.
That is not the way our game works. The above could just as easily be used to argue that no one should be able to call any blow light, because their opponent "got through their defenses, with control..." No. You must best me. You must hit me with authority, because it takes more skill to do so, just as it takes more skill to deliver an in-control yet solid face thrust.
I do not live within their borders, but I thank the Lord for the existence of Atlantia and East... and, indeed, the Tuchux. Were it not for those fine folks, every time someone came hand-wringing about the perceived dangers of stout blows struck with intent, we might be tempted to pay them some mind.
Keep on keepin' on, you crazy Atlantians and Easterners!
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:16 am
by Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle
A bit of explanation then. The unwritten convention (and sometimes it has been written) is that the thrust it has to be delivered with intent and good control. If a thrust is delivered at full extension of the arm it is considered bad form not to acknowledge that and inform the recipient that the blow was not good.
Uilleam
(Waffle)
dukelogan wrote:i think you missed his point. that being that if the grille wasnt there and all you did was touch it how is he to know if you had enough distance left in your trust to have hit his face with extreme force (since it would take extreme force to defeat the maille drape and, moreso, the skull). touch kill allows for someone at the extreme end of their range to just make contact and somehow its a fight ender. that, in my opinion, does nothing to enhance our sport and leads to cheap "kills".
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:01 am
by Aaron
Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle wrote:...and we can finally expose the real truth behind the SCA BOD "Everyone must wear full plate armor as a minimum standard." conspiracy theory, we will finally getting somewhere in this organization.
Uilleam
(Waffle)
Hush! The "Full Plate and Mail Standard" is a secret...wait, if I've said it on the Armour Archive....
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:08 am
by Aaron
dukelogan wrote:and really, if folks are worried about injuries so much that they want to ruin the sport by doing touch kills to the face they should look at how many actual injuries hay bales cause every year.
The absolute hardest shot I've ever received was being pushed over a hay-bale and being pile-driven to the ground, head first by a fighter with a good amount of weight behind him.
If you think about it, if the fighter had face-thrust me he would have delivered between 1 and probably 100 lbs of force (guessing here). But when we both went over the hay bale, it was my weight 194 lbs plus my FLF suit armour 45 lbs plus his weight 250 lbs plus his armour 60 lbs to make a grand total of 549 lbs of force. I don't even Duke Logan can generate 549 lbs of force with a single handed sword thrust. And if could, I don't think he would do so.
The hay-bales are the most dangerous part of our sport IMO.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:18 am
by DukeAvery
Hitting light with a 9' spear to the face at speed is harder than pasting someone into next week. The former requires far more control than the latter. The unwritten Estrella conventions reflect this. If the 'best' spearmen don't take light to the face at Estrella, the test of the field rapidly degenerates into neck wrenching 9s. YMMV
A spear thrust can be light, even to the face, but you are better off taking it, while being tolerant of being non-injuriously pezzed. Maybe we aren't using the same definitions for 'touch' and 'light'. A touch after all does have some, however tiny, force. I probably wouldn't take anything that didn't rock my helm back 10 degrees.
Regards
Avery
dukelogan wrote:thats absurd on every level. a thrust, face or not, can certainly be light. that makes no sense at all.
regards
logan
DukeAvery wrote:Speaking from my Estrella experiences, I would say that it is discourteous if not illegal to call a face thrust "light". But, the strike must be just that - a strike, not merely a touch. Furthermore, there is a great tolerance, even desire for, more forceful strikes ("Estrella hard") because it enables a much more energetic level of combat that inevitably results in some hard shots as plans go awry. Spearmen who are hurting people are/were yanked and yanked quickly. Is it possible east coast spearmen don't test for/use rapid deceleration methods for face attacks?
I find that targeting a certain "tilt" of the helm will produce better results than any other method determining how hard to drive a thrust.
Regards
Avery
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:50 am
by dukelogan
whats with the eye rolling emoticon?
regards
logan
Diglach mac Cein wrote:Sigifrith, Nissan -
I haven't noticed a lot of difference at Blackstone or Pennsic facing guys from other Kingdoms from what I face from other Midrealmers at our events.
Logan - I'll pass your opinion on to the Midrealm fighting community. I'm sure we'll give it all due consideration.
I have fun, my opponents seem to have fun. That pretty much makes it all good for me.
.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:55 am
by DukeAvery
Here is my advice for new commanders - "Never set up to receive a charge in front of haybales, lest I wander off more than usual."
Regards
Avery
Aaron wrote:...
The absolute hardest shot I've ever received was being pushed over a hay-bale and being pile-driven to the ground, head first by a fighter with a good amount of weight behind him.
...
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:58 am
by Dietrich von Stroheim
DukeAvery wrote:Maybe we aren't using the same definitions for 'touch' and 'light'. A touch after all does have some, however tiny, force. I probably wouldn't take anything that didn't rock my helm back 10 degrees.
Regards
Avery
Bingo, that's the difference. My experience in touch-kill kingdoms is that there is a world of difference between a 'directed touch' and what you describe. I had a dude scream bloody murder about a shot that rocked his head back less than 10 degrees, and angrily tell me that a face thrust is to be no more than a touch.
I'm a proponent of accepting lighter blows to the face but they should still be BLOWS, not 'POKE You're it!'
At the same time, I agree with Avery about being tolerant when you do get jacked hard. It happens. Case in point. I aimed a long thrust at a distant shieldman who was engaged with my line, but a meridian knight came sprinting up and accidentally ATE the thrust with his grill (like a dog jumping for a ball almost).
It was sheer accident that I laid into him that hard--bad luck on his part that he just happened to run in the way and catch the blow at its point of greatest kinetic energy.
He being a smaller fellow, was knocked over. Worried, I rushed forward and stood over him protectively, reaching down and helping him to his feet. I asked if he was 1) if he was alive and 2) if he was all right, and he looked up at me and laughed agreeably, saying,
"Dude, no problem, that's what the helm's for."
That made my day!
Moral of the story is that (even in a touch-kill kingdom) hard face thrusts occur, but the way to handle it is just to be cool about it.
And have a decent properly-fitted helm like Logan said.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:07 am
by dukelogan
risks? sure, i guess there are some risks to face thrusts that dont exist on the same level for other thrusts. but real injury? i would say the risks are terribly low. those risks are higher with a crappy helm of course and we should, perhaps, demand better fitted better strapped helms. ive been tagged with some pretty hard face thrusts but have never come close to be injured from them. my helm is 18lbs, strapped tight, and built to fit my head, so im fine with someone hitting me full force with a thrust. i dont need that much, nor do i want that much, but for me its not a safety issue.
given that more (i think) helms fall below the quality of mine i dont think we should explore full force face thrusts. nor do i think anyone is suggesting that. but to think that anything above mere contact / light taps is dangerous is unrealistic. if that is the case we should ban face thrusts altogether in the interest of safety. i really do think that our greatest safety insurance is our concern for each other and the control we employ with our weapons. remember, rattan doesnt kill people, people kill people!
it has been demonstrated for many years that hard face thrusts can be done safely. if someone is out their jacking people overly hard with shots, face or not, it is the fighter that needs to be corrected. i often describe the spirit of our sport as we want to hurt our friends but certainly not injure them. in other words we find joy in poking bruises over a beer later but feel terrible if there are ice packs and ace bandages involved. i also encourage folks to throw everything with enough force that our opponents dont have to think about a shot, they just react. if you have to think about it the flow is interrupted and the shot isnt good. fighting is like a dance and should flow without interruption. few things are as enjoyable.
regards
logan
Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle wrote:Zafir al-Th'ib wrote:...and yes, in Meridies and Gleann Abhann there is no such thing as a "light" or "glancing" face thrust.
Lucky for those two places, a rather large scale experiment has been ongoing in, well, every single other Kingdom in the Known World regarding the relative safety of non-touch facethrusts in SCA combat. Despite the exponential escalation of risk such a practice, the rest of the Known World has been able to somehow avoid the steady stream of paralyzations and deaths that positive force facethrusts must inevitably cause. I suspect conspiracy.
Great. Experimentation, with good safety standards and controls is wonderful. I have no problem with it. It is also the reason the SCA, overall, has the safety record it has for the number of years it has been doing heavy combat.
The reality for face thrusts is: Whether your kingdom's standards are "touch", "positive force", "significant degree of hardness", or however your kingdom defines it, the fighter receiving the blow knows they got thrust in the face. Even a, so called, "touch" has a degree of force behind it. Regardless of the strength it should be called. For safety reasons if for no other; i.e.: the "light blow" factor. The one word I hate to hear in a fight after delivering a face thrust is "light ". It means they want me to hit them harder. While I am willing to comply with this request on almost any other area of their body, not to the face. The risks are, to me, just too great.
For many years it was a contention between Meridies and the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids because face thrust were not allowed in the Midrealm.
Speaking of which, I was living in the Middle at the time when it was proposed the Midrealm begin allowing facethrusts. The level of hysteria in some quarters is almost impossible to overstate. I have vivid memories of local fighters swearing that this would be the end of the SCA.
Maybe it was. Maybe, we are actually in an alternate universe SCA. Same kinda things happen here, but in different areas. The most common one I have heard, over the years, whenever there is an SCA wide change in armor standards (like going from basketball pads to hard armor for joints) is the old "It's a conspiracy to make us all wear full plate as the minimum standard." However, I actually haven't heard that one in a number of years.
They were wrong. Positive force facethrusts can, apparently, be done in relative safety. Obviously, each Kingdom can make up whatever extra rules each likes; if you claim it's simply an artifact of local culture, there's not much anyone can say about that. But your defense of this practice on grounds of grave danger is absurd..
Maybe they can. I have received face thrusts of every degree of hardness and have never been injured, shaken, but not injuried. As I stated above my main problem is with the ability to call a face thrust "light". To me, the arguement of "If you just touched the faceplate/grille of my helm means there wasn't enough power to actually damage my face." is just as absurd. The fact that I got through your defences, with control, and touched you in the face means I could have hit you much harder, but didn't. I can't tell you how many times I have looked at a fighter across from me and told them not to call a face thrust because my arm was at full extension, and while the thrust did touch them it would not have actually reached their face, or done damage.
There are many times in the history of heavy combat where rules or restrictions have been instituted because people saw the potental for problems not as a reaction to the result of those problems. At one time it was that fighters were allowed to call a leg blow by continuing to fight by hopping around on one leg. To my knowledge, no one ever really got hurt doing that, but for some reason they made a rule against it. I wonder why.
Edited: Spelling. Twice.
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:15 am
by dukelogan
well the argument will be that folks have been killed and hospitalized from baseball contact and nobody has been killed yet by ca. sure, i get that. i think that our current system is pretty safe except for our spectators. is it safe? no, there are risks and we trust our marshals and archers to inspect the ammo and to contruct it correctly. tube and tennis ball ammo would be, in my opinion, about as safe as we can do it. again, the best thing we have going for us is that our archers care about fighters and dont want any of us to be injured.
regards
logan
Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:dukelogan wrote:anyway, when the head of an arrow comes off and (this time) hits someone in the teeth or the eye (nevermind our spectators of course) i think you will understand his point.
Yeah, maybe. Do you think CA is safer than sitting in the lower deck of at a typical (college/minors or higher level... not t-ball) baseball game?
BTW, I thought of you some recently... because I was hit in my left elbow cop behind a 29" centergrip round _3_ times in the last week! (once hard enough to leave a bruise though spring steel + foam) Now it goes without saying that the user of the shield in this case (me) was obviously defective... but I still thought it was funny.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:23 am
by Diglach Mac Cein
whats with the eye rolling emoticon?
regards
logan
The idea that a large percentage of fighters in a Kingdom (really multiple kingdoms) should stop SCA fighting and do boffer.
.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:31 am
by dukelogan
good thing i never said that though. but dont let that stop you from placing that on me.
logan
Diglach mac Cein wrote:whats with the eye rolling emoticon?
regards
logan
The idea that a large percentage of fighters in a Kingdom (really multiple kingdoms) should stop SCA fighting and do boffer.
.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:31 am
by Diglach Mac Cein
Well, that's what I got reading this, and various posts you've made regarding Meridies...
If I'm wrong I apologize, but please let me know what you meant so I can have a clearer understanding.
dukelogan wrote:word! 1000% dead on.
any shot that wont bleed me without my helm on (which honestly would be most shots but thats not my point) is bs and only cheapens our contests. there are foam padded groups for those guys and they really need the numbers. badly need the numbers!
regards
logan
Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Diglach mac Cein wrote:Why is it one extreme or the other?
In the Middle, it is a good "pop". Not touch. Lighter than body thrust, but not "touch"..
I love you guys, but a Middle Kingdom face thrust with a single handed sword is ludicrously light. A two handed spear thrust from you guys is noticeable, but frankly I doubt it would give me a nose bleed (given that it's 3" of foam) if I didn't have a helmet on.
And not to single you out - I would say the same for Aethlemark, Northshield, Ealdomere, Calontir and Trimaris. And that's leaving out the 'touch kill to the face kingdoms".
Any you know what? That's OK. Not only is it your Kingdom and local area's choice to fight that way, it's every individual's right to take however light as he or she so pleases.
I have to say that I loath and despise the "lighter to the face" rule. It is the worst part of the redonkulous "chain mail standard" rule. The "rules on the ground" are -- and have been for many years -- I hit you, you tell me if it was good. Socialization takes care of the rest.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:50 am
by dukelogan
well just to be clear, my only contention about meridies and their admittedly low calibration is that they should embrace the fact that nobody else plays that way and they should adjust to that when outside of their zip code. most do. however, there are quite a number of them that are high profile that have no issue suggesting that other people are cheaters or "rhinos" if they dont accept light blows. that is unfair and often creates unneeded negative feelings. ive seen it happen way too often. i couldnt care less if they want to play touch kills with sword blows or if they want to go to full bore submission fighting at home. i just think when we are all together, and outside of their borders, the minority must adjust to the majority. nothing more.
but your comment was about reporting to the midrealm fighters that i think folks should go do boffer fighting implying that i somehow was insulting the whole of the midrealm. my comment (below) had nothing at all to do with the midrealm or any other kingdom especially given the description offered as "a good pop. not touch" which i agree with. im not sure how you read into my comments to mean something about the midrealm.
and just a side note, ive fought in tourneys in seven kingdoms and have never had an issue adjusting to whatever the "standard" is when im visiting, including meridies. granted "their way" is so foreign to the sport i enjoy that i simply dont do tourney fighting when im there and just stick with pick ups. i think i have the right to do that and there certainly is no insult in doing so.
regards
logan
Diglach mac Cein wrote:Well, that's what I got reading this, and various posts you've made regarding Meridies...
If I'm wrong I apologize, but please let me know what you meant so I can have a clearer understanding.
dukelogan wrote:word! 1000% dead on.
any shot that wont bleed me without my helm on (which honestly would be most shots but thats not my point) is bs and only cheapens our contests. there are foam padded groups for those guys and they really need the numbers. badly need the numbers!
regards
logan
Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Diglach mac Cein wrote:Why is it one extreme or the other?
In the Middle, it is a good "pop". Not touch. Lighter than body thrust, but not "touch"..
I love you guys, but a Middle Kingdom face thrust with a single handed sword is ludicrously light. A two handed spear thrust from you guys is noticeable, but frankly I doubt it would give me a nose bleed (given that it's 3" of foam) if I didn't have a helmet on.
And not to single you out - I would say the same for Aethlemark, Northshield, Ealdomere, Calontir and Trimaris. And that's leaving out the 'touch kill to the face kingdoms".
Any you know what? That's OK. Not only is it your Kingdom and local area's choice to fight that way, it's every individual's right to take however light as he or she so pleases.
I have to say that I loath and despise the "lighter to the face" rule. It is the worst part of the redonkulous "chain mail standard" rule. The "rules on the ground" are -- and have been for many years -- I hit you, you tell me if it was good. Socialization takes care of the rest.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:12 am
by Diglach Mac Cein
OK, that just wasn't how it came across to me initially.
.
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:15 am
by Vladimir
dukelogan wrote:conversly, hitting someone with a stout blow, like a stiff jab, might disable someone and does require skill.
regards
logan
That's what I liken a good face thrust to, a boxer's jab.
Give me a jab to the face, that pops my head and I'll take it. That's what I try to deliver as well
Do that and I'm happy. Brush my helmet like you're trying to finger paint my helmet with your spear and I won't take it.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:01 pm
by Balin50
It's easy; if when you are stabbing folks that it happens that they make horrible noises when you're hitting them or complain about you hitting to hard EVERYtime. Throw a little lighter. If not you are most likely ok.
That being said if you are not wearing armour that will protect from an EXCESSIVE shot and you feel unsafe in you should improve your armour until you feel safe. Same thing for cup shots like your boys? buy them GOOD armour. Like your bean? Buy a good helm and strap and pad it right and maintain said padding and chinstrap.
Hit hard take light.
Balin
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:18 pm
by Amanda M
Vladimir wrote:dukelogan wrote:conversly, hitting someone with a stout blow, like a stiff jab, might disable someone and does require skill.
regards
logan
That's what I liken a good face thrust to, a boxer's jab.
Give me a jab to the face, that pops my head and I'll take it. That's what I try to deliver as well
Do that and I'm happy. Brush my helmet like you're trying to finger paint my helmet with your spear and I won't take it.
That's pretty much what I try to do too. An authoritative poke to the face to say hey, that was me over here. I don't like to crank off really hard but if someone doesn't take it I'm happy to turn the dial up a little til they do.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:58 pm
by Oscad
I fought in the Mid for... decades. I am now in the East, and have not found much of a calibration difference. Atlantia seems to play a bit higher, but even then, not overly so.
OTOH, I played mostly in Mich and Ohio, and they have higher calibration than the I states. (Honestly not sure of KY calibration, aside from a few folks...)
I have found a bigger difference in calibration between experience levels within a Kingdom, than between the kingdoms.
My preference, is for a face thrust to obviously move my helmet, doesn't have to be a lot, but enough that we are both sure that is what happened.
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:10 am
by raito
Vladimir wrote:That's what I liken a good face thrust to, a boxer's jab.
Jack Dempsey believed that the jab is a knockout punch. Interestingly, his 4 methods of generating power are all found in period combat manuals.
(Kinda OT. But then how many have actually been hit with a boxer's jab with intent? I know of Diglach, Logan, and myself. Any others?)
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:49 am
by dukelogan
i have knocked men out with a jab. hard to say in the ring because of cumulative damage leading to the jabs. in the street ive laid a fair number of men to the earth with jabs/straights. they can be powerful enough to take a man out, but its very rare. they are set up shots for power punches or to change your footing. aside from that they are not that useful.
oops, i guess i didnt answer the question (although i was already credited with having been hit by one). of course ive been hit with jabs. they are punches that are not very damaging (except in the sca where some folks think you could stop a man with an axe punch which is just silly) but they cannot be ignored. in the ring, or any formal fighting, they are pretty much used as a distraction.
regards
logan
raito wrote:Vladimir wrote:That's what I liken a good face thrust to, a boxer's jab.
Jack Dempsey believed that the jab is a knockout punch. Interestingly, his 4 methods of generating power are all found in period combat manuals.
(Kinda OT. But then how many have actually been hit with a boxer's jab with intent? I know of Diglach, Logan, and myself. Any others?)
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:35 am
by Zafir al-Th'ib
raito wrote:
Jack Dempsey believed that the jab is a knockout punch. Interestingly, his 4 methods of generating power are all found in period combat manuals.
(Kinda OT. But then how many have actually been hit with a boxer's jab with intent? I know of Diglach, Logan, and myself. Any others?)
Yep. I'm a right-hander who fights southpaw, and my main weapons were a very stiff jab and a lead hook. Certainly eaten my share.
With respect to Dempsey, Ike Quartey is the acknowledged 'King of the Jab'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_HwYguqgaQ
That's a standard jab there, executed to perfection. But others have used different types of jabs to great effect. Aaron Pryor utilized a slapping jab masterfully to set up different punches. There are slap-jabs and flip-jabs. My favorite jab-artist, Miguel Cotto, used a power-jab that could have caved a man's skull. Check the second round. The footwork on his jab could easily be adapted for SCA combat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lvZLlbTb5s
Someday, if we keep this thing going, SCA fighting is going to have the same level of nuance and sophistication.
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:51 am
by Vebrand
I often find it funny how people who do not live in a Kingdom make comments on that Kingdom's fighting culture from either one tourney or one event they went to. I have lived in numerous Kingdoms and played and learned the culture which one cannot do from one event. Sorry just the truth to it. Travelling and visiting is much different than living there. Making general statements is also poor to do when one really has only limited experience or going off hearsay.
I have told people on more than one occasion the hardest I have ever been hit by a single handed sword was in crown tourney by Duke Boru. No one complained about it and it was a great powerful shot that staggered me several steps. Can others hit as hard, sure, but never been hit that hard in a tourney and I have lived in some Kingdoms that are known as the heaviest hitting. I often find it's not the blow force that the difference but the acceptance level.
I have honestly thrown the same level shot in the West, An Tir, Atlantia, and Meridies and 95% of the people take it if it lands clean and rarely do I have to raise the level. I will go as far as to say that of that rare 5% that 99% of them where unbelted fighters that either were known to be a higher acknowledgement person or wanting to win so bad that they just didn't want to call blow that fight.
Vebrand
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:01 am
by Dietrich von Stroheim
raito wrote:(Kinda OT. But then how many have actually been hit with a boxer's jab with intent? I know of Diglach, Logan, and myself. Any others?)
Oh yes. I admit I've actually been KO'ed by a jab.
Although I was fairly punch-drunk by that time--was probably just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Back in the day I liked to use a jab-cross combo to close in and grapple. I also used a gimmicky jab-to-a-hook fake--with the same hand--that didn't actually do much damage but often confused the opponent enough for me to land a nice crushing right.
Useful little tool, that jab.
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:54 pm
by Balin50
dukelogan wrote:i have knocked men out with a jab. hard to say in the ring because of cumulative damage leading to the jabs. in the street ive laid a fair number of men to the earth with jabs/straights. they can be powerful enough to take a man out, but its very rare. they are set up shots for power punches or to change your footing. aside from that they are not that useful.
oops, i guess i didnt answer the question (although i was already credited with having been hit by one). of course ive been hit with jabs. they are punches that are not very damaging (except in the sca where some folks think you could stop a man with an axe punch which is just silly) but they cannot be ignored. in the ring, or any formal fighting, they are pretty much used as a distraction.
regards
logan
raito wrote:Vladimir wrote:That's what I liken a good face thrust to, a boxer's jab.
Jack Dempsey believed that the jab is a knockout punch. Interestingly, his 4 methods of generating power are all found in period combat manuals.
(Kinda OT. But then how many have actually been hit with a boxer's jab with intent? I know of Diglach, Logan, and myself. Any others?)
From OT axe to the head
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... kills.html
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:37 pm
by dukelogan
wait a minute!!! he survived an axe blow to the face!?! how is that even possible? i mean ive heard from a number of sca guys about how deadly a punch to the face with an axe would easily be and how silly i am for suggesting that axe punching not only violates the rule which states that weapons are to be used in accordance to their design but also that i dont think an axe punch would be fatal, not a chance in hell. so its clear that the scientists in this article are crack smokers since this body showed signs that he had survived an axe blow (maybe those arent as hard as punches) to the face in an earlier fight.
oh wait, if you read on its clear they are crack smokers since they also said they found an arrowhead lodged in his chest when we know that arrows defeated armour and destroyed anything they hit. at least thats what ive been told from a number of sca guys. ha! and these guys call themselves scientists. shenanigans i tell ya.
but they do say that he was killed by a sword blow that struck him while lying on his back. now that is a technique that ive only seen done legally at gulf wars when i was laying on my back during a hold trying to help a guy under me get up. when all of a sudden a little wee half man stepped over me, cursed at me, then hit me with his sword. i thought that wasnt allowed but i was corrected later on. weirdest thing really.
so in this article we learned that these guys are crazy and that even back in the day the technique of hitting a dude lying on his back was as fashionable as it is today.
regards
logan
Balin50 wrote:dukelogan wrote:i have knocked men out with a jab. hard to say in the ring because of cumulative damage leading to the jabs. in the street ive laid a fair number of men to the earth with jabs/straights. they can be powerful enough to take a man out, but its very rare. they are set up shots for power punches or to change your footing. aside from that they are not that useful.
oops, i guess i didnt answer the question (although i was already credited with having been hit by one). of course ive been hit with jabs. they are punches that are not very damaging (except in the sca where some folks think you could stop a man with an axe punch which is just silly) but they cannot be ignored. in the ring, or any formal fighting, they are pretty much used as a distraction.
regards
logan
raito wrote:Vladimir wrote:That's what I liken a good face thrust to, a boxer's jab.
Jack Dempsey believed that the jab is a knockout punch. Interestingly, his 4 methods of generating power are all found in period combat manuals.
(Kinda OT. But then how many have actually been hit with a boxer's jab with intent? I know of Diglach, Logan, and myself. Any others?)
From OT axe to the head
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... kills.html
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:30 pm
by asbrand
dukelogan wrote:but they do say that he was killed by a sword blow that struck him while lying on his back. now that is a technique that ive only seen done legally at gulf wars when i was laying on my back during a hold trying to help a guy under me get up. when all of a sudden a little wee half man stepped over me, cursed at me, then hit me with his sword. i thought that wasnt allowed but i was corrected later on. weirdest thing really.
Wait...what?
There was a hold. And you were on the ground, on your back. And someone hit you with a sword...and you were told you had to take it?
Re: Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:10 pm
by dukelogan
mostly. all of that happened, some folks who witnessed it demanded a marshals court, i agreed, and some kind of court happened. in it the little toad man admitted to what he did (although his story changed two or three times as he insulted anyone that questioned him). then a guy with a title (though not of either the host kingdom nor the two principal kingdoms) decided he was in charge of the court thingy and did nothing.
well..... he did nothing to the little asshat (although im told this kind of behavior is ongoing with him and ive witnessed some really disgusting behavior on his part myself). he made some claims about coming after me but never did. like i said, very weird stuff.
clearly when someone admits to striking a man, unarmed, on his back, during a hold, and there is a marshals court held and nothing happens to him it must be legal. i have faith in our various methods of dealing with rule violations and have been asked to sit in several marshals courts. ive never been called to one myself, of course, but i have seen them happen. so they must work right? anyway, now you know that you can do that and its perfectly ok!
regards
logan
asbrand wrote:dukelogan wrote:but they do say that he was killed by a sword blow that struck him while lying on his back. now that is a technique that ive only seen done legally at gulf wars when i was laying on my back during a hold trying to help a guy under me get up. when all of a sudden a little wee half man stepped over me, cursed at me, then hit me with his sword. i thought that wasnt allowed but i was corrected later on. weirdest thing really.
Wait...what?
There was a hold. And you were on the ground, on your back. And someone hit you with a sword...and you were told you had to take it?
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:39 pm
by William Scrivener
Not to get way off topic, but the axe blow as described and depicted is well away from the face and would have been under even the most basic conical helm. The article does not give enough detail to determine why they feel it is an axe vs a sword blow and if it was delivered to an armored or unarmored head.
That said, why the heck would I punch someone with an axe when it has that big old lever built right in there to increase force and killing capacity? I guess I am lucky in that I have yet to encounter this particular "style" on the field. Sometimes it is good to be lacking in experience.
Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:20 am
by Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle
Ok folks, this is becoming an equine autopsy for me. So, I am going to do one more bit of commentary and then return to my normal lurking from a dark corner.
The general consensus of commentary seems to be that face thrusts, as done at this time, are essentially safe. No argument, they are. The contentions seem to be what is hard enough, or too hard, in regards to the potential for injury, and whether the call of "light" is appropriate in relation to a face thrust.
By now, you all know I am a propionate of the touch kill standard, and most of you should have figured out why, safety.
When the basic rules for heavy combat were first being developed, two of the rules were: no intentional striking of the hands and no striking the knee and below. The reasons were pretty obvious. The armor required at the time did not protect either area enough to keep fingers from being broken, or knees from being blown out. As armor evolved the armor required to protect these areas was increased until we have the standards we have today. Even though the protection afforded these areas is now at a point to where the potential for significant damage is remote both the hands, and the knees and below, are still restricted areas. Why? It is because, the inherent weaknesses in the structure of these joints, even now, make it easier for the hands and the knees to sustain injury than most of the other areas of the body. So it is with the cervical area of the neck, which is just as weak, if not weaker in its structure as that of the hands and knees. Even if current standards provide for more than adequate protection why take a chance on injury beyond what is necessary to know that defenses have been penetrated and the blow has been struck.
The bottom line comes to this. If a fighter has the ability to call a face thrust "light" then they have to be hit harder in the face for the blow to be called good. The normal reaction is to "crank it up" to make sure the next one gets called. Even if a fighter intends to only turn it up a little bit, in the heat of battle, and adrenaline being what it is, what seems to be a little bit can easily become an exponential (I know Zafir al-Th'ib likes that word) increase in force. Which also increases the possibility of injury. It is not worth taking the chance of a neck injury just because a fighter is not sure the thrust would have actually reached they’re face and done damage or not.
Thanks for the discussion. Never can tell when I will come out of the darkness.
Uilleam
(Waffle)
Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:26 am
by dukelogan
wait!! before you go off into the darkness!!
just a view from the other side, so to speak. what if the standard were, as it is in most places, that you throw face thrusts with force? not as much force as you would throw at the body, but force nonetheless. as has been described here, a stiff jab. also, if someone gets hit with a face thrust and calls it light i have more faith in our fighting communitity than to think the next one will be this out of control and overly hard follow up. at least when ive had/seen face thrusts called light ive never witnessed the next one being one of these fabled "it lifted me off my feet and threw me back 20'" kind of superhero blows.
i disagree with your fear of face thrusts being unsafe or with the notion that the verterbrae are fragile, weak things. i do so coming from nearly 20 years in a kingdom that has always thrown stout face thrusts (and never hearing about any injury. i also feel that way as a retired boxer. in boxing i would say half of the shots i took straight (jabs, straights) were twice as hard as any thrust ive ever received and the rest as hard if not harder. our heads can get rocked without damage.
i dont think we can ever legislate safety with face thrusts nor do i feel they are unsafe. but there are a ton of factors involved (helm fit/size/strapping, body movement, being all amped up, slipping, weapons failure, etc) that can dramatically change the level of force applied. i dont see us regulating equipment to an acceptable standard so we will continue to see crappy, ill fitted, helms on the field with tie behind the head thongs for chinstraps. so how do we do it safely?
well, the same we have for so many years. we rely on each other not to injure our friends. if a fighter lacks control and is knocking peoples head "off their shoulders" pull him aside and remind him that he is in charge of his opponents safety. if he continues to harm people then deal with him in other ways.
it can be done safely, and has for years. if a kingdom wants to fight with a touch kill condition i guess they should, but dont put that on the rest of us when we meet outside of your zip code. regardless of who is doing what on the field the important thing to remember is that we all get to go home in one piece. it is what seperates us from most other sports.
regards
logan
Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle wrote:Ok folks, this is becoming an equine autopsy for me. So, I am going to do one more bit of commentary and then return to my normal lurking from a dark corner.
The general consensus of commentary seems to be that face thrusts, as done at this time, are essentially safe. No argument, they are. The contentions seem to be what is hard enough, or too hard, in regards to the potential for injury, and whether the call of "light" is appropriate in relation to a face thrust.
By now, you all know I am a propionate of the touch kill standard, and most of you should have figured out why, safety.
When the basic rules for heavy combat were first being developed, two of the rules were: no intentional striking of the hands and no striking the knee and below. The reasons were pretty obvious. The armor required at the time did not protect either area enough to keep fingers from being broken, or knees from being blown out. As armor evolved the armor required to protect these areas was increased until we have the standards we have today. Even though the protection afforded these areas is now at a point to where the potential for significant damage is remote both the hands, and the knees and below, are still restricted areas. Why? It is because, the inherent weaknesses in the structure of these joints, even now, make it easier for the hands and the knees to sustain injury than most of the other areas of the body. So it is with the cervical area of the neck, which is just as weak, if not weaker in its structure as that of the hands and knees. Even if current standards provide for more than adequate protection why take a chance on injury beyond what is necessary to know that defenses have been penetrated and the blow has been struck.
The bottom line comes to this. If a fighter has the ability to call a face thrust "light" then they have to be hit harder in the face for the blow to be called good. The normal reaction is to "crank it up" to make sure the next one gets called. Even if a fighter intends to only turn it up a little bit, in the heat of battle, and adrenaline being what it is, what seems to be a little bit can easily become an exponential (I know Zafir al-Th'ib likes that word) increase in force. Which also increases the possibility of injury. It is not worth taking the chance of a neck injury just because a fighter is not sure the thrust would have actually reached they’re face and done damage or not.
Thanks for the discussion. Never can tell when I will come out of the darkness.
Uilleam
(Waffle)