The Armour Archive

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 12:32 pm**

Awhile ago we were talking about maintaining consistancy between challenges, practices and tourney fights. I saw a classic example of this this weekend. I was waiting in line for a challenge field while watching two Knights fight. The more senior Knight tagged his former squire with a tap to the area of the nasal. It was a quick wristy shot which absolutely could NOT have been thrown full force from that position. The other knight took it.

When he came off to wait in line behind me, I said "I'm surprised you took that. It was super light." His answer was "well it was clean and we just can't play with those "old school rules" anymore". I said "The current rules of the list require a full force slash to the face." He shrugged.

I just can't get behind that touch tap thing.. IMHO, one should be consistant and follow the rules, and especially Knights should be examples of this.

The funny thing was that my "old school" hubby won the tourney.

Juliana
...Back in the day...

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 1:12 pm**

Well, if everyone else is taking the wristy flicky stuff, I'd be suprised if somone who's taking "old school" who had some reasonable skill didn't win. That's not in any way a slam, just a fact.

I don't personally like full force face shots, but I don't like touch kill to the face either. I want SOME bite into the face. And that's how Ansteorran law is written, so it works out pretty well for me. Except when I'm fighting the old schoold people who STILL want it full force.

of the two problems, I'd rather face the ones who take a bit below the written standard than above it, but only by a slight margin. I prefer people who are consistant with the written kingdom standard.

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 1:52 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Morgan:
Well, if everyone else is taking the wristy flicky stuff, I'd be suprised if somone who's taking "old school" who had some reasonable skill didn't win. That's not in any way a slam, just a fact.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify, "everyone else" isn't taking "flicky wristy stuff" and those who do are inconsistant. I am talking about face shots primarily. I thought it was interesting that that following the rules of the list would be considered "old school".

My husband really wasn't hit much all day, even light or glancy shots, so it is irrelevant. Perhaps it sounded odd the way I worded this, but it was somewhat in regards to the implication that those of us who learned long ago are fighting incorrectly (including my husband who was knighted some years ago).

The point is that I don't believe that the guy who called it "old school" would have taken that shot in a list fight, though I have seen others do it occasionally. I have also seen certain people browbeat fighters into taking those shots in list fights or expect that their poor form shot should be acknowledged.

In this case the shot was lighter than I see light weapons people throwing with shinai. If I don't think it would have hurt someone if they didn't have a helmet on at all, I think it is a bit too light.

Juliana

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 1:53 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Morgan:
Well, if everyone else is taking the wristy flicky stuff, I'd be suprised if somone who's taking "old school" who had some reasonable skill didn't win. That's not in any way a slam, just a fact.

I don't personally like full force face shots, but I don't like touch kill to the face either. I want SOME bite into the face. And that's how Ansteorran law is written, so it works out pretty well for me. Except when I'm fighting the old schoold people who STILL want it full force.

of the two problems, I'd rather face the ones who take a bit below the written standard than above it, but only by a slight margin. I prefer people who are consistant with the written kingdom standard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How "old school" are you talking about? Ansteorra has always been a lower force face shot standard kingdom. We theroiticaly fight in open face helms with a light chaimail drape. I call shots so that if my face grill was not there and the shot would have hit my face, it is good. If it just glances the bars, but would not have hit me if they weren't there, it is not good.

What is new is the number of fighters expecting flicky wrist shots to be call wherever they hit. This is not our standard and they should not be called.

Regards,
Jean Richard

[This message has been edited by Jean Richard Malcolmson (edited 03-25-2002).]

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:00 pm**

My standard: Hit hard and take light

I take a face shot if it hits me with any positive pressure, i.e. it made contact with my grill and there was some force there.
I admit to taking lighter than I might in a tourney during fp, but I do mention it to who ever hit me with something like "good shot, little light, you might want to hit it a bit harder in a list."

Personally, since it is *my* honor, I'd rather take a light shot than argue about the force it landed with.

Crystoll Mackintosh

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:22 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jean Richard Malcolmson:
I call shots so that if my face grill was not there and the shot would have hit my face, it is good. If it just glances the bars, but would not have hit me if they weren't there, it is not good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you assume the presence of a nasal in Ansteorra?

Supposedly that is what we are doing here in Caid. The particular shot I'm talking about landed right above the eyes and horizontally. So theoretically it would have landed on the nasal and chain drape before hitting flesh.

The blows that bother me are the ones where the person goes from a high guard, moves the blow forward during a static block. Then the sword is flicked at the grill in a horizontal tap moving the end of the blade forward no more than 4-6". All wrist. This is not a punch (which can be hard enough if done right.)

Would that be a good shot in Ansteorra? Its not a tip or glance, just weak IMHO.

Juliana

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:24 pm**

I think Crystoll is right. A lot of people take light shots just to be sure to not be accused of cheating. They would rather walk off the field than be accused of being a Rhinohider.

------------------
Watt

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:36 pm**

It is interesting that many people will take a shot in some circumstances and not others.

Does that send the right message to those trying to figure out the game? How does this effect those who are trying to improve their fighting, but when they fight in practices and challenges, their blows are taken, but not in tournament? How do they learn to use proper form if its not expected during training?

If there are Knights or Senior unbelteds, and they do one thing in challenges and one thing in tourney, or inconsistant depending on who they are fighting, do you think that might be confusing to those using them as examples?

Is it right for the fighter throwing the shot to let the opponent to take an "ultra light" shot? If you use a punk shot as a set up to make someone raise their shield, and then they don't raise their shield and decide to take it, should you tell them not to?

In a tournament would it be fair for the Marshals to allow someone to take a blatantly obvious ultra light shot without comment? What if it were flat? What if it was an obvious glance or off the shield? Should they speak up?

Would you ask your opponent or ask the marshal if you were concerned if it was an ultra light shot? Would you feel it unchivalrous if you did?

Juliana

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:39 pm**

I was at that tourney myself. Yes, I think that lack of consistancy can be a real problem. There are many fighters that really want others to take the real flicky/tippy shot that never would have killed let alone bruise someone even in plain mail armour. The main reason is they can't throw the shot with any force but they can with some speed and they want to win the fight.

Now, as for face shots, they do need some force behind them, although I don't think as much as the rest of the body. If we are supposed to be in an open faced helm, the blow can be somewhat lighter that a blow to the top of the skull. There are times that a lighter shot can be taken by a fighter without consistancy problems, though. I myself will take a groin shot lighter than a blow to the helm or body, it is plain common sense.

"Old school" or "new school"? Well, at least here in Caid there has been a shift in styles of combat. For quite a while arm hunting was tabboo as was keeping one's shield when an opponent lost his or her sword arm. That has started to change. I think calibration has done the same. Some groups went to a lighter force and a more flicky style of fighting. Right or wrong, being consistant is very important. Fine, take take lighter when training. If a shot gets through that you should have stopped, take it and keep going. But at a tourney, even in pick ups, use the same claibration.

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 3:15 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munz:
There are many fighters that really want others to take the real flicky/tippy shot that never would have killed let alone bruise someone even in plain mail armour. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly am not advocating "taking someone's head off", but it seems like some middle ground should be maintained.

Honestly I've never seen anyone in your group do this tappy thing either.

Nice kit BTW. As a side note, we had a visiting Laurel from Ansteorra who complimented us on how great our fighters look both in armor, costume and footwear, and she was especially delighted to see so many of our Knights in period harness. Please pass that on to your very honorable Knight and your friends who who were there.

regards,
Juliana

[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 03-25-2002).]

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 3:16 pm**

The East used to be one of the few kingdoms who used a close-face rule, and I was one of the ones who pushed hard for that. It takes a lot more skill to land a hard blow than a light one (note I said to *land* a hard blow), and I'd prefer to encourage wins by highly-skilled fighters, not by lucky shots from unskilled folks.

As for the "hit hard, take light" philosophy, I believe we should hit hard and take hard. This is about armored combat, and I feel I would cheat my oppoenents if I took a blow I didn't think was hard enough to be effective. If people want to call that rhino hiding, well, that's too bad.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:00 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
 Do you assume the presence of a nasal in Ansteorra?

Supposedly that is what we are doing here in Caid. The particular shot I'm talking about landed right above the eyes and horizontally. So theoretically it would have landed on the nasal and chain drape before hitting flesh.

The blows that bother me are the ones where the person goes from a high guard, moves the blow forward during a static block. Then the sword is flicked at the grill in a horizontal tap moving the end of the blade forward no more than 4-6". All wrist. This is not a punch (which can be hard enough if done right.)

Would that be a good shot in Ansteorra? Its not a tip or glance, just weak IMHO.

Juliana

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Above the eyes? Most probably not. Above the eyes it'll usually have to be a full powered shot.

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:06 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SyrRhys:
 If people want to call that rhino hiding, well, that's too bad.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are within the accepted standard where you play, then it shouldn't be considered rhino hiding. I think that Caid was originally a fairly hit hard/take hard kingdom, but we also typically had heavier weapons (which are now illegal), required heavier shields, and tended to wear more armor as well. I remember fighting pickups with a young Duke Ronald at a war shortly before he was belted and won his first Western Crown. He was definitely a hard hitter, but it wasn't to a degree that was unusual. And he took the few shots I managed to get in, so I assume I was hitting moderately hard (though I was in much better form than I am now). I assume you guys still play around that level, which is not criminal by any means :-)

I do think that Caid's typical calibration has lightened a bit over time, though I wouldn't say we are a particularly "light hitting" kingdom compared to others. We still maintain many of our West Kingdom roots. We have come down hard on Rhinos, who basically would not die no matter how hard they were hit or who hit them. Hard hitting/taking is a different issue than not taking at all.

I do believe in the "when in Rome" philosophy however if people go to some other kingdom, especially if they have a different ruleset such as open face vs closed face.

It sometimes is hardest when some regions within a kingdom have different views on blow calibration. This is especially hard when there is disagreement within the Chivalry.

Juliana

[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 03-25-2002).]

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:38 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SyrRhys:

As for the "hit hard, take light" philosophy, I believe we should hit hard and take hard. This is about armored combat, and I feel I would cheat my oppoenents if I took a blow I didn't think was hard enough to be effective. If people want to call that rhino hiding, well, that's too bad.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/Teasing tone
Maybe that's why I am not a knight

/End Teasing tone

Seriously, imho, there is no loss of honor by loosing a bout in taking a shot light.
On the other hand, winning a bout by demanding a out of standard calibration (i.e. Rhino hide) is very dis-honorable.
If you want me to hit you hard, that's fine, that's why I throw hard.
On the other hand, I don't need to be nuked by a shot to consider it good.
Part of the problem I guess is how much force is needed to switch from light to good?
To me a good shot is any one that if it had struck a portion of my body that was un-armored, it would have left a mark.
A good head shot causes my head to move when struck.

Crystoll Mackintosh

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:41 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Crystoll:

A good head shot causes my head to move when struck.

Crystoll Mackintosh
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just as an FYI, the type of wristy shots I was talking about would not move anything.

I find that many good head shots don't always move my head, but then I have a fairly heavy helm.

Juliana

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:32 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
 Do you assume the presence of a nasal in Ansteorra?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The short answer is Yes, a nasal and a light chainmail drape. However, I was not able to find it in writing in the Ansteorran Marshall's Handbook.

There are typically four phases in a fighters blow calling. Beginners call everything, then they begin to call harder after they have been hit a few times. The third phase is after they someone has complained about their blow calling and they call too light to avoid conflict. The final phase is when they gain the confidence to call a light shot light whether they are fighting a beginner or a Duke.

Regards,
Jean Richard

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:59 pm**

Is anyone going to post their annoyance at the Ansteorran domination of this thread?

What Jean Richard, JP said...I like to be hit hard enough that I know about it. Except down the back. That STINGS!

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:08 am**

No, I'm not going to gripe about the Ansteorrana domination this thread. Lots of shots do not a kill make.

I might gripe about the advantage the Ansteorran's give by toting those EMMENSE shields! I can hide so well behind them and I don't have to carry it. You guys are SO CONSIDERATE.

------------------
Sir Theodrik of Skane,
West, Mists, Blackwood Company
'Lude Fortier, Lude Juste, Nemini Damnum!'

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 7:47 am**

I'm not a bearer of the "Ansteorran Standard" shield...but I'm learning to fight around them.

I have to admit, I prefer my opponent to come out with a buckler and a dagger....I guess that's why they carry a sword and shield. hehehe..

------------------
"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 9:51 am**

Heh..
Hey I fight with a round (roughly 24") and a 36" sword mostly..
Cept during war when I carry a kite...
I've really never liked the BFS (Big F&^&*^ Shields) that some folks carry, but hey that's ok, it just makes it easier for me to make my opponent blind themselfs

Crystoll Mackintosh

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:08 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Theodrik:
No, I'm not going to gripe about the Ansteorrana domination this thread. Lots of shots do not a kill make.

I might gripe about the advantage the Ansteorran's give by toting those EMMENSE shields! I can hide so well behind them and I don't have to carry it. You guys are SO CONSIDERATE.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theodrik, you haven't been out to Ansteorra recently have you?

The times, they are a' changin'! While the typical Ansteorra BFS is still found, alternative shields and fighting styles are arising.

Case in point, one of the two finalists in our last crown was fighting a 24" round shield. The other was carrying the standard Ansteorran BFS. Of the 23 entrants in our crown tournament, I'd say about 10 of them carried smaller/different shields that the standard ansteorran 2x3.

Frau, sorry bout the thread hijack.

------------------
Jean Paul de Sens (JP)

And Shepherds we shall be
for thee my lord for thee
power hath descended forth from thy hand
so that my feet may swiftly carry out thy command
And we shall flow a river forth unto thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be
In nomini patriath, fili, espritus sancti.

-The Boondock Saints

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:23 am**

/grins
Bah, Timo's shield is a 22-23", depending on how much it got smashed recently

Crystoll Mackintosh

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 4:47 pm**

Juliana-

Thanks for the nice compliment on the harness, I've been working hard on it. As for my knight, who would you be refering to? I am squired to Duke Ivan the Illustrated and he wasn't there. Some think I am squired to Sir Luther, but we are just good friends. As for Saturday, I was sitting with Sir Gavin, but again we are just friends and members of the Company of Saint George together. He does look quite spiff on the field, though. I will pass along your fine words to him. By the way, I enjoyed fighting your husband very much, and hope to do so again in the future.

Munz

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2002 5:22 pm**

Okay, I just want to put in my two cents:

Frau Hirsch: I too was at the tourney this past weekend and had a very good time fighting your husband. He took me out in the second round, but gave me a great fight. One of the best of the day.

Munz: If you are the gent I think you are, then I too must compliment you on your kit. You -do- wear the gambiosed cuises and simple cops correct? I am moving that way myself and made some mental notes to myself based on your kit.

http://photos.yahoo.com/acdntlpoet/
the "me" picture was taken during my first fight of the day. I'm in the green tunic with the red favour... just so you can put a face with the name.

-Seamus

------------------
Formerly Acdntlpoet
The WaywardCelt

[This message has been edited by Seamus (edited 03-26-2002).]

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2002 1:49 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munz:
Juliana-

Thanks for the nice compliment on the harness, I've been working hard on it. As for my knight, who would you be refering to? I am squired to Duke Ivan the Illustrated and he wasn't there. Some think I am squired to Sir Luther, but we are just good friends. As for Saturday, I was sitting with Sir Gavin, but again we are just friends and members of the Company of Saint George together. He does look quite spiff on the field, though. I will pass along your fine words to him. By the way, I enjoyed fighting your husband very much, and hope to do so again in the future.

Munz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silly me! And I thought you were with Sir Gavin.. oops! Of course Duke Ivan is also a very honorable Knight as well and I'm sure he'd love to hear that his Squire and many other Caidans were complemented on the effort we put into looking good on the field and off. Related to another thread Duke Ivan is a perfect example of someone who I think could crack someone's helm open if he used a real sword with that wrap of his :-)

We used to fight Duke Ivan more often when Arion and I used to live in Gyldenholt (about 12 yrs ago).

Of course it is always a pleasure to see Company of St. George members show up. We of course point the Company as example for our new members to aspire to.

I will pass that on to my husband. We haven't been out as much lately to SCA tournaments, so it was a very fun day seeing old friends and fighting different people.

Juliana

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2002 1:52 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Seamus:
Okay, I just want to put in my two cents:

Frau Hirsch: I too was at the tourney this past weekend and had a very good time fighting your husband. He took me out in the second round, but gave me a great fight. One of the best of the day.

-Seamus
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Seamus! I recognize your armor, but might not recognize the face. I vaguely recall the fight. If you see me at an event, please come introduce yourself! Arion had a great time with that center grip heater. It was maybe the 4th time he's used it ever and only the first time in an SCA tourney. It sure generated a lot of questions. He'll have to start dragging around documentation to show people. :-)

Juliana

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2002 5:18 pm**

Frau Hirsch-

I had indeed seen you, but alas had no opportunity to introduce myself when I was thinking about it... and forgot the rest of the time! Out of my helm I look like this: http://68.4.157.138:2266/SCA%20Pics/GWW%20V-%20Oct,%202001/DSCF0192.JPG

I must say, Sir Arion's use of the centre grip heater was right on the money in the fight I had with him. Hopefully we will have chance to meet again on the field, as I'm sure he can teach me a thing or two, as he did at Friendship.

Regards-
Seamus

------------------
Formerly Acdntlpoet
The WaywardCelt

[This message has been edited by Seamus (edited 03-29-2002).]

The Armour Archive

Consistancy

Consistancy