The Armour Archive

Whitie I guess I have your answer. We all know what the argument is all really about so Im going to Post a new topic so we can take this elsewhere.

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sic locus dignum, sic dignus placitum http://brennus.stormloader.com/interkin.html

" Alright, I just had to comment on the McDonalds analogy. As creative as it is, it's a poor analogy. The point is not that we have a billion fighters that all look the same, but that large numbers create variety to expand and push the limits of your training knowledge and experience..."

I see your point.But I would ask this:Is a person who trains in JUST the SCA(or any group) more,or less,likely to survive than someone who is trained in multiple schools of training?People who I have heard mentioned as "good" fighters in the SCA have trained in other disciplines.If the SCA was "the best",then why did they seek training outside its enviroment?

I'm not saying this to throw dirt on the SCA.I'm asking it as a legitemate question.One that can only be answered by those who have done this.

I'm also saying it because the original question didn't really allow for the option of multiple schools of training.In my opinion, the well rounded student has the best chance.

Also,the reason I used McDs' was that one of their damn commercials came on as I was typing.



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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

What group would I want to have been a part of if suddenly dropped into a medieval war zone?

Hmmm....81st Rangers battalion? 101 Airborne? Navy Seals? Marine Recon?

To start with. This would give the correct mental and physical preparation. Then some time with the Salinas Swordman. Their brutal, violent, & dangerous style of combat rules/techniques while a bit much for a hobby make a fine example of what I would want to prepare me for a medieval war zone. Of course I would like a month or two to brush on my metallurgical and explosives knowledge with respect for medieval warfare. Probably spend a substantial amount of time with the writings of Vegetius and other medieval authors on the subject of war also.

Brandr

I think my choice is obvious.

Just to get into the spirit of things:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think my choice is obvious.</font>

Yeah, but I can kick your butt along with all your buddies. At the same time. With one hand tied behind my back. Just drive 1500 miles to Indiana and I'll prove it. Don't forget your buddies....

Watch out Bascot,some people would call that a challenge!!!

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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

Ok I am going to go over the obvious reasons 95% of re-enactors of all of these groups would die in the medieval world

1) This mostly goes for Americans. Being out of shape and FAT!!!!!!!!!! 65% of the USA is fat, not just by 10 pounds either, and they all seem to be in the SCA or some other reenactment group. There are allot of vary thin people who are not in shape either. In the Middle Ages most people who were not sick were in good shape do to physical laboring and constant training for solders and knights.

2) Swordsman Ship. Vary few train in actual swords man ship. Stickjocking is useless against a REAL knight. Most stickjocks have as much swordsmanship as a medieval peasant. And Most of those who train using real sword technique it is like comparing a kendo student who trains a few hours a week to the ones in Japan that train 8 hours a day. We lack training! Most lack quality training anyway.

3) Armor. Most of us are tired after a 3-minute fight in our lightweight kits. Try strapping on a real 60-pound full kit on and fighting all day. This goes back to fact 1. Knights would be use to the weight do to training. Just like army ranger who run 20 miles with a 50-pound pack. Can the average guy do that? NO.

4) Groups like the SCA do not allow shots to the lower leg. There were no such rules in combat. We don't fight correctly.

5) Grappling. 90% of the reenactment community does not grapple. I do grapple in my Marshal Arts training, and I you are not use to it you will lose.

6) Shields. The SCA and LARPS use ridiculously over sized shield and they are made of cheap light wood that would break under the force of a flail or mace, and would chip into pieces when struck by a sword. If they had to carry a real shield made for REAL combat they could not use a round shield the size of a table. They are use to being immobile and hiding behind an OOP shield and trying to hit the other guy in the arm or head. This is not REAL sword fighting. It is crappy stickjocking.

Lets face it the games we play do not really prepare us for real medieval combat. Some train in a realistic sword fighting, but that is a vary small minority. Just because you hit hard or win allot of tourneys in our slimed down game doesn’t give you a good chance against a master of the REAL fighting arts.

Stickjocking is as close to REAL long, short, great swordsmanship as fencing is to REAL rapier fighting. And that is not close at all.

Next we will be arguing that an unarmored samurai can fight against a fully armored knight and win by cutting all the way through his armor with a katana. GET REAL.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yeah, but I can kick your butt along with all your buddies. At the same time. With one hand tied behind my back. Just drive 1500 miles to Indiana and I'll prove it. Don't forget your buddies.... </font>

You don't want to mess with me. I'm a ninja.

And flonzy, thank you for that long explanation of why any of us would never last in real medieval combat. However, you didn't answer the question so I'm going to have to disqualify you. And while you did mention the SCA and LARPs, you only addressed points for half of the groups listed.

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Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury

Oops, sorry! I didn't realize that! I take back everything I said, even the part about you being gay!

I would probably say Swordsmen. They dont apear to be afraid to get down and dirty and fight like you mean it. If I were used to fighting sca pole arm and got tangled in a mess of people trying to kill me, I'm not going to be able to say,"ok, on the count of three we break apart and continue fighting." I'd rather have the experience of being able to punch and kick in armour then jump on top of the guy and stab him in the eye with a dagger.

Well said flonzy.
Hey,when I say stuff like that,people usually get pissed.What's the deal?

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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

Ahh, good points. But I never said that the person this happened to would do well, or even survive.
And I never asked which group has the best training technique or most realism.
I simply asked if it happened to you, what combat group would you hope trained you.
Simply opinions, thats all.
For curiosity's sake.

I'd pick the SCA with traing from Bob Charron added in. Biggest pool, biggest diversity of conditions. Playing tag in red t shirts is no substitute for actually hitting people in armour. Like guys that only do forms vs guys that spar under rules. Who wins a real fight?

A top fighter say Duke Gareth in appropriate harness is going to tost people on foot.

as far as grappling, i do it all the time no biggie for me.


"So what if your"comfortable" in armor?"
It makes a huge difference.

"What would your understanding be of the locks and unarmed combat used in"close-in" fighting?What would kill you the quickest would be how"artificial"your fighting skills are."

You dismissing that people who have trained in a fighting style can adapt quickly if pressed. Joint locks or not a good fighter is a good fighter.


How many....(have)...Stabbed anyone?"
Me, wasn't that hard when it mattered. Didn't even think about it.

"Used a weapon to maim or seriously injure another person?"

Me again, it's easy to bash and stabb people when their trying to do the same to you.

"it's not as easy as you think."
It's alot easier than you seem to think.

"...I'd pick the SCA with traing from Bob Charron added in. Biggest pool, biggest diversity of conditions. Playing tag in red t shirts is no substitute for actually hitting people in armour..."

If any group is "guilty" of playing tag,it would be the SCA.I think flonzy said it best with
"...Stickjocking is as close to REAL long, short, great swordsmanship as fencing is to REAL rapier fighting. And that is not close at all..."

"..."So what if your"comfortable" in armor?"
It makes a huge difference..."

Granted,it would make a difference.But a HUGE difference?Nope,some difference,but not huge.

"...You dismissing that people who have trained in a fighting style can adapt quickly if pressed. Joint locks or not a good fighter is a good fighter...How many....(have)...Stabbed anyone?"
Me, wasn't that hard when it mattered. Didn't even think about it.
"Used a weapon to maim or seriously injure another person?"
Me again, it's easy to bash and stabb people when their trying to do the same to you..."


Yes,people can adapt.But if you have spent years training in the confines of a system, which has a whole gaggle of rules that are designed to keep you from killing or seriously injuring your opponent,how are you going to overcome that?When I asked about wounding other people,in a previous post,I meant outside the confines of their sport.In other words:during combat(a real war),defending your life,during a physical assault on your person,etc..
Making ol' Joe Bob see stars,during practice,doesn't count.I'm talking "real life,him or me" type stuff.



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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"..."So what if your"comfortable" in armor?"
It makes a huge difference..."

Granted,it would make a difference.But a HUGE difference?Nope,some difference,but not huge.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever worn a complete harness of Milanese plate, c. 1450 - 1500 AD with the pieces of exchange? With a frog-faced visor on a helm strapped to the breast and back? Tried to ride a horse? Level a lance? At a gallop?

"...Have you ever worn a complete harness of Milanese plate, c. 1450 - 1500 AD with the pieces of exchange? With a frog-faced visor on a helm strapped to the breast and back? Tried to ride a horse? Level a lance? At a gallop?..."

No,but I thought we were talking fighting on foot.

I,for one, wouldn't want to stake my life on my riding skills.They suck,big time.

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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

"In other words:during combat(a real war),defending your life,during a physical assault on your person,etc"

I knew what you ment. I have been in real fights, where real people were really trying to kill or seriously injure me.

Saying the SCA plays tag with sticks in this context is like saying "knock down fighting" is playing tag. Yeah it has rules and isn't completely NHB but it certainly is applicable to fighting.

I concur with Bascot, and will say "yes i have fought in full harness." But you knew that Bascot, i fought you in your really spiff Churburg! Man did'nt that make some cool pics?

But no, not on horse back, yet.

I will get a horse and i will learn to ride and i will joust! One day! AS GAWD AS MY WITNESS!!!



[This message has been edited by Murdock (edited 03-28-2002).]

ever had to use a medieval weapon as you fought for your life--and won ?

Nobody on this list has Mike, and unless you use a Ouija board you won't be able to communicate with one (if you believe in that stuff).

The number of people who have fought for their lives with rifle & bayonet is a shrinking minority.

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Bob R.

"...Saying the SCA plays tag with sticks in this context is like saying "knock down fighting" is playing tag. Yeah it has rules and isn't completely NHB but it certainly is applicable to fighting..."

I understand what you getting at,but something we should realise is that ANYTHING that puts "constraints" on your training with the use of weapons,regardless of what they are,will get you killed in the "real deal".

For example:In WW 2 and Korea,they would find large numbers of dead soldiers,on both sides,with unfired weapons.Using after action reports,eyewitness accounts,etc.. they determined that the soldiers had been UNABLE to kill they enemy when confronted with the situation.The military learned you had to train this "trait" out of new recruits.One of the things they did was to start using man shaped targets to get the trainee accustomed to shooting at "people".This,along with other things, produced results that were much improved.

Take this test.The next time your training or fighting with a sword,or some other comperable weapon,kill your opponent.
If you are unable to kill your opponent because it's wrong,or you don't want to go to jail,or whatever your reason is:Welcome to the club!!! If you CAN kill your opponent,well...

My point is that modern man has been condition to not react violently to any situation.On 9/11 last year,on the plane that the passengers attempted to regain control.Most of the passengers sat right there in their seats!Even knowing they were going to die if something wasn't done,they still couldn't bring themselves to do anything.Thats how strong the "civilized" streak is in most people.


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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

[This message has been edited by FightinWhitie (edited 03-29-2002).]

Er, I'm going to be that through the ages, on the average practicing fighters did not kill their sparring partners. You run out of friends in a hurry doing shit like that.

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Murdock:
<B>"

Saying the SCA plays tag with sticks in this context is like saying "knock down fighting" is playing tag. Yeah it has rules and isn't completely NHB but it certainly is applicable to fighting.

[This message has been edited by Murdock (edited 03-28-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heavy Combat is not a weak sport, nor is it tag like LARP boffer games, but my Tang Soo Do/Grappling classes are 100 times more dangerous than Rattan fighting is. Rattan fighting rules are set up to be safe. Face it Rattan is not life or death nor is it UFC fighting, it is a marshall sport with strict safety rules. There are no such rules on the field of combat.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

"Take this test.The next time your training or fighting with a sword,or some other comperable weapon,kill your opponent.
If you are unable to kill your opponent because it's wrong,or you don't want to go to jail,or whatever your reason is:Welcome to the club!!! If you CAN kill your opponent,well..."


Sorry but that was just stupid. Your trying to say that because someone won't randomly kill for no reason that they won't do it if confronted with a _real_ threat.

That isn't conditioning. Being attacked by a thug on the streen and standing there would be an example of socioconditioning. Sorry try again.

"but my Tang Soo Do/Grappling classes are 100 times more dangerous than Rattan fighting is."

Tang soo do is a Korean striking art #1. Now if they are cross training you to make it more effective that's different.
#2 I teach Asain martial arts. In a controlled environmet neither SCA heavy nor Asain MA are all that dangerous. But i seriously doubt a commercial MA class is rough enough to be more dangerous than being hit by a bat. If my students were being that rough they'd get "tweaked" fast. Espically in class it's about control not about causing injury, if you can control yourself then you can win a fight, whe it is about causing injury. My boss would kill me if i had guys hitting each other as hard wih arnis in class as we do in the SCA. Plus we'd break the arnis

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FightinWhitie:
<B>"
For example:In WW 2 and Korea,they would find large numbers of dead soldiers,on both sides,with unfired weapons.Using after action reports,eyewitness accounts,etc.. they determined that the soldiers had been UNABLE to kill they enemy when confronted with the situation.The military learned you had to train this "trait" out of new recruits.One of the things they did was to start using man shaped targets to get the trainee accustomed to shooting at "people".This,along with other things, produced results that were much improved.

Most people will react violently in situations where the flight or fight instinct comes in.(if they do not run)

My point is that modern man has been condition to not react violently to any situation.On 9/11 last year,on the plane that the passengers attempted to regain control.Most of the passengers sat right there in their seats!Even knowing they were going to die if something wasn't done,they still couldn't bring themselves to do anything.Thats how strong the "civilized" streak is in most people.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do not fool yourself mans "civilized" streak is skin deep. Most people are not comfortable with violence because it is not a tool that is PC. When people are scared to death they will react like animals. If you have ever tried saving someone from drowning you will be surprised at how uncivilized people are.

Khann


[This message has been edited by Khann (edited 03-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Khann (edited 03-29-2002).]

My point is the safety rules and properly maintained equipment in Rattan is safer than marshall arts sparing. If you don't think so then I would seek a better school to train in. My instructor started in KAJUKENBO as a young man in Hawaii and moved on to Tang Soo Do in Korea during the Korean War. For the grappling we in the school study that ourselves. We had, until last year, an Army Cornel who was an instructor who worked with the Gracie’s at one time. I take more injury fighting in my Marshal Arts school than wearing my plate with a proper armoring doublet and padded slops. If it's different for you then fine but I stick by my view. Rattan is safe if the rules are followed, and the "BAT" isn't hitting my forearm directly like the shin of my sparring partner in my Marshal Arts group. My school does Traditional Arts. Not watered down American arts. My instructor is a 9th degree, not a 3rd degree. He is also 68 years old and can kick my ass easy and I have my 2nd degree black (going for 3rd soon) and I’m 25.

Feel free to read on my Marshal Arts school history at http://www.robertskarate.com/master-roberts-bio-martial-arts.htm

Flonzy


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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

"Do not fool yourself mans "civilized" streak is skin deep. Most people are not comfortable with violence because it is not a tool that is PC. When people are scared to death they will react like animals. If you have ever tried saving someone from drowning you will be surprised at how uncivilized people are.

Khann"

Apples and oranges. The drowning person has no intention of killing their rescuer and would be horrified if they did. Soldiers frequently kill on instinct (and are, again, generally horrified by their actions). A good book on this subject is "On Killing." by Michael Grossman. Your library probably has a copy or can get it through Inter-Library Loan. The author would argue that it is a species survival trait, not the veneer of civilization, that makes it difficult for most members of the same species to kill each other.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
<B>"Do not fool yourself mans "civilized" streak is skin deep. Most people are not comfortable with violence because it is not a tool that is PC. When people are scared to death they will react like animals. If you have ever tried saving someone from drowning you will be surprised at how uncivilized people are.

Khann"

Apples and oranges. The drowning person has no intention of killing their rescuer and would be horrified if they did. Soldiers frequently kill on instinct (and are, again, generally horrified by their actions). A good book on this subject is "On Killing." by Michael Grossman. Your library probably has a copy or can get it through Inter-Library Loan. The author would argue that it is a species survival trait, not the veneer of civilization, that makes it difficult for most members of the same species to kill each other.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess my experiences would lead me to different conclusions I disagree.

Khann

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Odea:
ever had to use a medieval weapon as you fought for your life--and won ?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this context, what would you define as a medieval weapon? An entrenching tool? How about a Buck(tm) hunting knife? A broken rifle stock? Or do you want to limit the definition to sword and lance type items?

Mindset, training, and panic do wonders in lethal combat.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FightinWhitie:
<B>

Take this test.The next time your training or fighting with a sword,or some other comperable weapon,kill your opponent.
If you are unable to kill your opponent because it's wrong,or you don't want to go to jail,or whatever your reason is:Welcome to the club!!! If you CAN kill your opponent,well...

My point is that modern man has been condition to not react violently to any situation.On 9/11 last year,on the plane that the passengers attempted to regain control.Most of the passengers sat right there in their seats!Even knowing they were going to die if something wasn't done,they still couldn't bring themselves to do anything.Thats how strong the "civilized" streak is in most people.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bad example..
In that case, most people had been told/conditioned to go along with the hijackers, and the government will save them.
On the plane where they attempted to regain controll, I argue that those who did act, managed to divert the plane from the hijackers intended target.

Next, as to random acts of murder, no most people will not do so, but there are certantly those who will, the prison is full of them.

A better example would be to get a case count of homicide via self-defense..
How many people were physically threatend and felt they were in danger of loosing their lives have recipricated by wounding/killing the attacker?

Have I ever killed someone?
Nope. Hope I never have too.
Can I kill someone to save my life or the life of my family?
Damn straight.
Will I use a gun to do so?
Sure. But as I don't have a gun, my axe, katana, long sword, scottish claymore will do just as well.
Hell, if I have to bludgen them to death with my rattan sword, I will do so.
The only other time I'd kill someone would be in the service of my governments armed forces.
Would it bother me to kill someone?
Probably, haven't had to so I don't know.

As to what group I'd want to have trained me, I can not comment as I've only fought in the SCA.
(Generalizing)
Granted the SCA fights are about as period as plastic, you still have a large range of skilled opponents who are all coming after your head.
At the very least you learn to move quickly

Crystoll Mackintosh

"My instructor started in KAJUKENBO as a young man in Hawaii and moved on to Tang Soo Do in Korea "

Now thats exotic!!

Please lets not get into the my dad can beat up your dad thing. I didn't mean to imply that your teacher was anything but competent. But there are so many strip mall dojo's, that it's really common to hear someone talking about this or that style and have no clue.

Your absolutely right about most schools being watered down. It amazes me that in the US they market hand to hand combat designed to seriously hurt folks, to children.

We are an all adult class, we train NHB fighters as well as traditional full contact fighters. Skip (my boss) actually judges UFC's. We try our damedest to stay as real as is safe.

Skip is about 67 and a true beast. He was in SOG back in the day. Sounds alot like your teacher is from the same mold.

I'm about the same age as you, i know how it feels to get whupped by a guy old enough to be your grandpa. It's a humbling experience, rather embarasing too.

Now the question is this, some shmuck jumps out at you with a knife. Do you freeze up or disarm and disable?

I've been attacked it sucks, scary as hell. Ya keep cotrol of yourself and you can stay alive.

What constitutes a medieval weapon? Ice pick? Knife? Pool cue(staff)? Been there, hated it, but i'm alive.

Now this is debating,I love it!!

Okay first,those of you who were "confused by the "kill your opponent" statement,please raise your hands.Now those of you who raised your hands,go look up the word "rhetorical".I was posing a rhetorical question.Okay?

"...The author would argue that it is a species survival trait, not the veneer of civilization, that makes it difficult for most members of the same species to kill each other..."
Good point.Although I would lean more toward a mix of the two that would be modified by upbringing,training,etc..

"..I guess my experiences would lead me to different conclusions I disagree.."
You see our point,it's YOUR experiences that make you different.Saying that you could drop people into a battlefield and they would turn into little Lemming-like machines of death is ludicrous,in my opinion.

"...Mindset, training, and panic do wonders in lethal combat..."
Thats what I've been saying!!!!But it's those things plus, you as a person.

"...Bad example..
In that case, most people had been told/conditioned to go along with the hijackers, and the government will save them.
On the plane where they attempted to regain controll, I argue that those who did act, managed to divert the plane from the hijackers intended target..."

Okay,which is it?First you say it's a bad example,then you say those people were "conditioned" to go along.That WAS my point.People,in most cases,will quietly slip into the next world rather than fight.

And of course the people who fought back saved us all from another even worse tragedy.
What I'm getting at is that most of the passengers,when confronted with this situation, terrorists right there in front of them,reports of the other crashes, they still couldn't bring themselves to react violently.Only a handful of those brave passengers could,and that in no way impugns the ones who didn't participate,they just couldn't do it.


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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

[This message has been edited by FightinWhitie (edited 03-29-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FightinWhitie:
<B>
Okay,which is it?First you say it's a bad example,then you say those people were "conditioned" to go along.That WAS my point.People,in most cases,will quietly slip into the next world rather than fight.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple, it was a bad example because this was the first time many people had ever have terrorists use them and the plane their on as a weapon, so the thought of every last one of them dying didn't occur til it was sadly to late.

Someone swinging a sword at you on the other hand is a completly different subject.

Crystoll

" Simple, it was a bad example because this was the first time many people had ever have terrorists use them and the plane their on as a weapon, so the thought of every last one of them dying didn't occur til it was sadly to late.

Someone swinging a sword at you on the other hand is a completly different subject."

What neighborhood do you live in!!!
I, personally, have seen more terrorist hijackings than people attempting to kill me with swords!!And I'm pretty sure everyone here can say the same.

But seriously,thats the whole point of "conditioning".Some of those passengers reacted,and fought back.Most of them didn't.

Why?

You can attempt to answer with "It was the first time for that situation" or any justification,but what needs to be done is to put yourself in their shoes.What would they be saying to themselves?

"This can't be happening!?!?"
"Stay calm,we'll get out of this."
"Why is this happening to me???"

They were in denial of the situation.But some of the passengers weren't.

Now do you really think that this situation,being hijacked,is anymore likely to cause a person to "freeze up" than dropping into the middle of a medieval battlefield?


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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...

I tend to hit people shape targets at every practice. Im pretty used to it so as for the freezing up problem there isn't.
As to what are medieval weapons does a night stick count, how about the metal end of a can of mace. Used both of these as weapons while I was a correctional officer. Did I ever kill anyone , No. Did I feel sorry for the people I did hurt after they attacked me , NO. Would I have felt sorry if one of them had died, probably not. I agree people have to get used to chaotic situations so they know how to act.
I disagree with the fact that 99% of the people in SCA or on this archive would die seconds after they were dropped in the middle of battle. Point of fact regardless of how much you hate the SCA we members have probably gotten closer to the experience than anyone else except some European groups. How often do you fight in the middle of a field with thousands of people on a side and chaos all around you? I do it a couple times of year. You may say this is different from the real thing. Sure it is. However it is closer than what anyone else is doing.
The average medieval soldier isn't a god of combat depending on where and when in the middle ages most infantry has little formal training. When they do have formal training the drills are about the same as simple military or police drills. This isn't as true for the elite soldiers and Knights but in a mass battle with thousands of combatants what is the percentage chance of fighting someone more trained than you? How good is your chance to meet someone who had never been in a battle before? All this depends on the when and where you were dropped.
While most SCA participants aren't all that well armoured, this archive and as time has went by more and more Scadians in general are adopting period harness. I fight in mine all day the weight is a factor, comfort in the armour is a factor but I am used to both.

Are the people that do this kind of thing for fun the type of people who will freeze in combat. I dont think so. Most of my friends in this hobby are ex soldiers, police officers etc. Yes there may be people that freeze up but not 99%. Flonzy seems to have a problem with stick jocks and fat people oh well. I sometimes get angry at them myself but most of the people I like to play with aren't in those categories.


[This message has been edited by Brennus (edited 03-29-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FightinWhitie:
<B>
What neighborhood do you live in!!!
I, personally, have seen more terrorist hijackings than people attempting to kill me with swords!!And I'm pretty sure everyone here can say the same.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well considering the whole point of this discussion was that if you/I were dropped into a medival battlefield..
I don't think we'll see any airplanes..
This isn't about what we see today, it's about what we'd see on the field.
Soo.. That point is invalid.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
But seriously,thats the whole point of "conditioning".Some of those passengers reacted,and fought back.Most of them didn't.

Why?

You can attempt to answer with "It was the first time for that situation" or any justification,but what needs to be done is to put yourself in their shoes.What would they be saying to themselves?

"This can't be happening!?!?"
"Stay calm,we'll get out of this."
"Why is this happening to me???"

They were in denial of the situation.But some of the passengers weren't.
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Yep, some were in denial.
Simple fact is though that in most every other prior hijacking, some of the victims were saved because they didn't resist.
This was the first (to my knowledge) use of a passenger aircraft as a weapon.
(Yes, I know about the Japanese using their planes as weapons)
Also, as we do not know what happened to the pilots, even if you resisted, what can you do? Don't believe the movies where they talk someone whose never flown before down, it just don't happen.
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Now do you really think that this situation,being hijacked,is anymore likely to cause a person to "freeze up" than dropping into the middle of a medieval battlefield?
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Yes, I do.
Someone with a gun on a plane is going to keep me steady until I make a decision to act depending on the situation.
On the other hand, that big hunk of metal flying at my head will make me move in a hurry.


Crystoll