The Armour Archive

made it to fight pratice first time in a while one of the fighters sead that the 90 degree rule was going out and being replaced with no excessive force.
when did this happen? it could also be just a kingdome thing but I doubt it.
currently in aethealmark

In Ansteorra, the 90 degree rule for two handed weapons was replaced by the excessive force rule about seven or eight years ago.

It was changed in Ealdormere about 4 years ago

Mind clueing me in on these rules? This is the first I've ever heard of either them.

------------------
Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:
<B>Mind clueing me in on these rules? This is the first I've ever heard of either them.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Per the Society Marshals' Armoured Combat Rules, Regulations and Policies at http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/armored/index.html

Specifically under the "Rules of the List" link:

Section B - Behaviour on the Field:
1. Striking an opponent with excessive force is forbidden and is considered an unchivalrous act.

-Keith/Austin.

To contrast:

The old 90 degree rule said "Thou shalt not swing thy 2 handed weapon through an arc that is greater than 90 degrees, or thou shalt be smited with wrath. For 90 degrees is a magical arc, and even the 91st degree of arc is excessive, and the 89th degree is not."

The new rule is "if you're hitting too hard, you're hitting too hard. Don't do that, it's not nice and it's not proper."

I can hit you WAY excessively with 45 degrees on a 7 1/2 foot glaive, and I can GUARANTEE that I do not hit TOO HARD with a 180 degree swing of a greatsword.

So the rule replaces arbitrary and meaningless numbers with common sense.

------------------
"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 07-03-2002).]

oh, ok. Im familiar with the rule, just didn't realize that "90 degree rule" was what it was commonly known as since i havent fought with polearms or greatsword yet. I knew about the no excessive force rule, but didn't see the connection until it was pointed out to me.

------------------
Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

Greetings,


What about in other kingdoms? I am in the East, does this apply here?


thanks,
Llywelyn

------------------
Stay open minded, but not so open minded that your brains fall out.

------

I am neater with a 5lbs. cross pein than with a ball point pen!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Llywelyn:
What about in other kingdoms? I am in the East, does this apply here?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it does apply in the East.

Now, if only someone would define "excessive force"!


------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

excessive force = smelling salts after the match.... just kidding....

you could say that excessive force is an ammount of force that you wouldn't want to be hit by...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Christopher:
<B>excessive force = smelling salts after the match.... just kidding....

you could say that excessive force is an ammount of force that you wouldn't want to be hit by...</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that that definition doesn't do us much good. I'm famous for saying that very few blows are anything *like* too hard, whereas some folks find my *normal* blows that I might use at a fighter practice to be *much* too hard.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

I agree with you, Rhys. I know that even personally "too hard" in the helm is VERY differnet than "too hard" in my ribs or on my spine.

I'm curious what you think should be a good solution to the issue, however.

While I wholeheartedly support the excessive force rule while using two handed weapons, I have to agree with those who raise the thorny issue of defining excessive force.
I'm a big guy, I like big hard hits which leave no room for doubt as to whether they were good. I believe it should sting a bit to get tagged. However, not everyone feels this way, usually somewhere along kingdom of birth lines.
I grew up in the Outlands, not a super hard kingdom, but when I PCS'd to Germany and joined Drachenwald fighter practices, I had to tone it down to avoid the reputation of being a club weilding thug. This is single sword mind you. Oddly enough, my greatsword shots were spot on, go figure. Anyhow maybe we should have "calibration circles" at major inter kingdom events, to even out the force we smack each other with throughout the known world.

------------------
"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
Fearghus's Homepage

I like the 90 degree rue. I find it easier to hit too hard with a two handed weapon than with a single sword. with the 90degree rule I know that I can move my sword where ever I want I just can't hit from there.
I would still use the 90 degree rule even if it wasn't there. Just for safety purposes.

We're here to kill each other; not to bash our brains out.

------------------
Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

There is some law of physics that makes the 90 degree rule irrelevant. Something like the force of the blow is nothing at the apex of the arch. Like if you are swinging a 180 degree arch when you get to half way or 90 degrees the force basically starts over. I know I'm not saying that right.
Excessive force????? What is that? How is it judged? I owe my noble opponent a good strong shot. My noble opponent is not a coward and should not be treated as such. Risk is part of the game. We can always wear more armour. I don't advocate trying to hurt someone but hitting like a ‘Patsy' is not chivalrous. Otherwise we might as well be playing with boffers.

If you're incapeable of hitting with proper force if you swing more than 90 degrees, by all means, don't swing more than 90 degrees. But please don't think it's necessary to mess with my technique. I do NOT have a problem hitting too hard.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Morgan:
<B>I agree with you, Rhys. I know that even personally "too hard" in the helm is VERY differnet than "too hard" in my ribs or on my spine.

I'm curious what you think should be a good solution to the issue, however.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly, I don't have a good solution, to be honest. To me, however, it's a pretty unimportant issue, since event he hardest-hitting areas aren't causing a lot of injuries, that suggests our sport is a lot safer than most people believe.

My *personal* opinion is that if you're really *damaging* your opponents through *good* armor, then you're probably hitting too hard. By damaging I mean things like broken bones, concussions, knockouts or a regular basis, etc. Of course, any of those things can happen from even a moderate shot: you'd have to be doing these things fairly often for me to think someone was hitting too hard.

I know, however, that this standard wouldn't appeal to most folks because they don't like pain.


------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Sounds reasonable. I think, however, that I'll take it a step further. If you're breaking large bones that are UNarmoured, you're hitting too hard. IE, if you hit someone's thigh, unarmoured, hard enough to break the femur, you're hitting too hard. If you hit somone's upper arm, unarmoured, hard enough to break the humerous, that's too hard. If you can crack more than say, 2 or 3 ribs, unarmoured, that's too hard. If you can hit someone in the unarmoured pelvis hard enough to damage that structure, that's too hard. It's easy to have physics be proper enough to break a radius or aluna, to crack a rib.

This is not to say I need to be hit almost that hard to take a shot. I do not. And at a level below that I'll say, "You don't need to hit me that hard." But I don't recall the last time I COMPLAINED about getting hit too hard. I don't wear much beyond the minimum necessary, I'm quasi-ashamed to say.

Now, on the ARMOURED side, I think if someone is hitting hard enough to cause major bruising through proper armour, that's too hard. Unless the juggernaut in question simply won't take a lesser shot.

------------------
"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

I always thought of excessive force as a shot that actually caused injury beyond bruises. Bruises are to be expected, but broken bones, knocking people out that kind of thing is excessive.

The problem to me with "cause bruises" is that a shot that will cause a bruise to my upper arm with no armour is VERY different than a shot that will cause a bruise to the top of my head in my helm. And if they throw a shot that will cause a light bruise to my head in my helm at a place I'm UNarmoured, I think I'll be VERY unhappy.

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 07-05-2002).]

I weigh 165 lbs only because I've been sitting at a desk and not exercising for almost two years now. I'm not a big guy.

I could still, under the 90 degree rule, take a 7 1/2 foot unpadded polearm, hold it at the end, raise it directly over my head, and get a swing with a radius of about 9 feet. The fact that it followed 90 degrees doesn't mean much: that still equals some pretty good neck trauma at the very least.

HELMUT

Helmut, I agree. I can EASILY hit you "too hard" under 90 degrees. I can EASILY hit you "just right" over 90 degrees.

Greetings!

What is the status of 90 degree rule in Drachenwald? I couldn't find it or the excessive force rule on the marshals' page.

Mikael

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Duncan:
There is some law of physics that makes the 90 degree rule irrelevant. Something like the force of the blow is nothing at the apex of the arch</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you are referring to the power curve.
At the point in the arc where the weapon or projectile ceases to accelerate, that is the apex of the power curve.
If you have reached max velocity within only 35 degrees of the swing, then swinging another 110 degrees does not increase the power of the blow at all...in all likelyhood, it is actually slowing down after that point.
It is not the distance traveled, but the speed the weapon is going at point of impact. And there's is also the direction and attitude of the weapon to incidence of contact. A sword swung at arms length has less leverage than a blow swung close in to the body (it is like holding up a broom at arm's length by the tip of it handle).
When swinging with the full arm rather than just the elbow, the force can be much greater despite loss of leverage, due to the greater arc-path the weapon travels.
It can gain greater speed and this lends greater force to the impact.

I think the other thing you were talking about was a related topic but not applicable to the situation we are discussing.
Well maybe it does apply...
There is a 90 degree rule in physics as well, concerning the apex of a rotating object and the influence of outside force on its path.
Any spinning, rotating, or orbiting object, when force is applied to it from any direction, the ultimate result and consequences of that force will not be seen for another 90 degrees further on in the object's rotation.
This means that if a helicopter blade spinning clockwise encounters a downdraft on the forward blade when the blade is extended straight out in front of the nose of the aircraft, the downdraft will blow the blade down, but the blade's lowest point will come 90 degrees further in its rotation from where it first encountered the downdraft, i.e., directly off the right side of the aircraft. The blade will then travel back upward in a horizantal arc and reach equilibrium again when it faces directly aft at 180 degrees, and then it will continue up in an arch reaching a height equal to its
former dip below the rotational axis at 270 degrees, and then reach equilibrium again at 360.
So a downdraft on the front of a helicopter pitches the whole thing the therright. A downdraft on the right pitches the whole aircraft aft, and an aft downdraft pitches the aircraft left...and so on. The effects of any outside influence on a rotating body are postponed for 90 degrees.
Gyroscopic precession.
This does have a parallel in SCA combat, and it is why it is harder to adjust the direction of a fully extended swing.
It also telegraphs your moves somewhat.
The best and most efficient swing...as defined by a swing that accelerates the entire distance to the target, would be one where you start out with your forearm and wrist at a 90 degree angle to your upper arm with the sword at a 90 degree angle to the wrist parallel to the upper arm.
As the arm extends, also extend the sword so that it aligns with the extended arm and as the weight gets further from the fulcrum of movement, the velocity will increase, magnifying the force of the blow.

Pulling shots inward also can increase the velocity of a blow. Once a rotational arc has been described and max velocity achived, when you shorten the arc, the velocity of the object inbcreases as less force is needed to make it follow the new smaller path. If you have ever sat in an office chair and spun around in it, you know what I am talking about.
Once you are up to speed what do you do?
You pull your legs in and the chair spins even faster. It is the same principle.
Move your sword from a large arc to a smaller one and it gains speed at both ends.
Neat, huh?





[This message has been edited by Abaddon (edited 07-10-2002).]