The Armour Archive

I am due to start training for sca fighting, and I have a question about how these things are done.

I know that most everybody starts training with sword and shield, and also starts fighting that way. This is not historically accurate, as swords were fairly uncommon on battlefields, so a warrior would be trained with what he would be using in battle. I do not intend(unless I am forced by my trainer) to fight with a sword because I do not believe my persona would be likely to have used one. Anyway, that's just my thoughts on that... comments please.

Greetings,

Your first authorization in almost all Kingdomes is weapon and shield. "weapon" meaning mace, axe, sword, hammer < if done safely >. Some Kingdomes allow pultruded fiberglass spears as your first weapon authorization, but you may want to check on that.

Saranac Goetz

As far as i know, swords were VERY commonly used on the battlefields throughout Europe during the middle ages, along with maces, axes and spears. Some regions had certain preferences for weapons and may even have been known for their use(think english longbow, swiss pikes, etc), but if they were truly effective then they tended to get adopted by just about all the nations of Europe eventually.
Without knowing your specific persona and time period it's hard to say what sort of weapons other then swords you would use commonly. If you can let me know what your portraying i may be able to help narrow it down a bit, and im sure that the folks on the archive that are more knowlegable about weapons can point you in the right direction if i can't.

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Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

Edit: my assumption that this is for SCA. If not, maybe it applies maybe it doesn't.

If you're counting all combatants on a field of battle, across many time-periods, I do believe that spears were the most common weapon, and swords were a luxury.

But that's not the SCA. We're all nobles here. If you want to a stickler for doing it right, keep that in mind. Nobles typically had swords. To use an anology, the footman's spear would be a Honda. The sword would be a Lexus.

[This message has been edited by Edwin (edited 07-08-2002).]

Close examination of the works of Ewart Oakeshott reveals the truth- there were many different grades of sword in the Middle Ages. Spear work and swordplay would have been taught to a young nobleman as soon as he could pick them up.
Swords were not rare- *extremely* nice ones were rare. Many art pieces survive to this day because they were too beautiful to recycle or dispose of.
Read about the 15th century river finds- those swords were off-the-shelf weapons...very affordable.
-Vitus

I think we can safely assume he's talking about SCA since SCA is in the title and body of the initial post.

I hated sword and shield. It was what I learned first and then dropped quickly in favor of pole arm and great sword. My knight fixed that. I love sword and shield fighting now, because I was taught out to do it. It's made the REST of my game a lot better. I fight a lot of spear in war, for example. I also strongly believe in the tenant that a knight should be proficient and deadly in all weapons of tournament combat. So I fight with everything.

I am curious what your persona is and why you think you wouldn't use a sword and shield.

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"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by I. Stewart:
<B>I am due to start training for sca fighting, and I have a question about how these things are done.

I know that most everybody starts training with sword and shield, and also starts fighting that way. This is not historically accurate, as swords were fairly uncommon on battlefields, so a warrior would be trained with what he would be using in battle. I do not intend(unless I am forced by my trainer) to fight with a sword because I do not believe my persona would be likely to have used one. Anyway, that's just my thoughts on that... comments please.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Swords were common shields were not.. According to the time period? 15th 14th no sheilds Fiore called the sword the queen...

Khann

I'd like to see some documentation to back up "shields were uncommon" if you don't mind.

On an SCA note, although most kingdoms encourage you to authorize weapon and shield first, that is because it is also the easiest and fastest way to train someone safely. I have seen a large article (don't remember by who) which describes the best way to train a new fighter is with bastard sword because then they only have one thing to think about.

In reality though, you will get your best training as a new fighter in weapon and shield. Learn how to fight with it, because once you know how to fight it, then you also know how to beat it.

Just some thoughts

Mav

Stewart:

"I do not intend(unless I am forced by my trainer) to fight with a sword because I do not believe my persona would be likely to have used one. Anyway, that's just my thoughts on that... comments please. "

I was in the same situation as you - I never wanted to fight W&S but had to to authorise. As a sixth century Angle, who didn't feel very "noble" yet, a heater and 42 inch sword felt wrong too.

As soon as I got my card, I threw the damn things away, and concentrated on becoming a demon pole fighter. Then, a couple of years later, I won a shield as a tourney prize. The King told me to learn to use it, so I did W&S for a year.

Well, it was worth it. I never really got to enjoy carrying a shield, but now I can fight much better against W&S with my pole, and - lets face it - most of your opponents will be shield users.

There are other benefits too. I can teach that newbie who wants to learn W&S; I can match weapons with anyone at a Pas d'Arms; and I don't disgrace myself utterly fighting in the "single sword only" battle in Calontir.

So give it a try. The more tools you understand, the better.

Cheers

Adam
/Aethstan / SCA Drachenwald

PS On the persona front, you may find your persona changes with time too. I am still Dark Ages at heart, but I enjoy playing 15C as well now. Those flashy tourneys are just so spiffy....

Shields remained common during most of the 1300's. The verse accounts, the illustrations from all sources- shields remained for use on horse and foot.
-V

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Morgan:
I'd like to see some documentation to back up "shields were uncommon" if you don't mind. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many references would you like?
Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight(David Edge & John Miles Paddock
Medieval Warfare (Terence Wise)
Philosofia de las armas (Carranzas)

If you look at the Treatises of old they do not cover shield they at best cover buckler.
Flos duellatorum by Fiore de Liberi
Hans Talhoffer Fechtbuch 1459
Trattato CamillobAgrippa 1533


There is some reference to large buckler 1528 Gabriel de Contreras was attepting to register as a master he had to prove skill with two hand sword, sword and small buckler, sword and large buckler, sword and rondel, sword alone, dagger, quarter staff,
All other master were reference to small buckler only.

There is more however I am tired of typing

Khann



[This message has been edited by Khann (edited 07-13-2002).]

I'm sorry...I skipped over the late period reference in your post.

I'm not sure if taking unarmed combat manuals as the sole source is all that wise, but we do know that shields in combat were much less common in late period because armour was so advanced.

But my fully armoured 16th century persona would love to meet up with an unarmoured guy who loves his sword....shield or no shield.

Morg

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Morgan:
<B>I'm sorry...I skipped over the late period reference in your post.

I'm not sure if taking unarmed combat manuals as the sole source is all that wise, but we do know that shields in combat were much less common in late period because armour was so advanced.

But my fully armoured 16th century persona would love to meet up with an unarmoured guy who loves his sword....shield or no shield.

Morg</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many of the manuals were armed and armored..

However I would have to agree with the second sentiment.

Khann

Manuals...
So now we are to assume that the rank and file of the soldiery could not only afford a sword and would be allowed to carry it in public, but that he could also read and afford books. Granted, the manuals were mostly illustrations, but nevertheless.
I have to assume that the manuals of arms were pretty much geared to the gentry and the professional soldier. Yet we know that much of an army was made up of local levies and retainers...farmers and herders.
While this was less true in later periods, as armies were more specialized and better equiped and trained...you are ignoring a large portion of earlier history where the lightly armed an armored peasant played a rather large, if unsung and unappreciated, role in warfare. A 10th century peasant would not have had a sword or shield. Nor would an 11th, 12th, or 13th century peasant.
Yet they were all present when in battle when their local lord needed to round out his leveies.
But I don't think the SCA authorizes fighters in the use of the "pitchfork".

Well, not pitchfork per se.....
But a short spear is pretty much the same thing.
you can't slash with either weapon....

Now I have this image of a member of the chiv being surrounded in mellee at Pennsic..... by a bunch of folks with short spears and burlap tabbards....

Now there's a historical combat challange scenario idea......(grin)

VvS

The idea of mass levies composed of peasants armed with agricultural implements is largely a myth. Warfare in the West was largely monopolized by various classes of relatively wealthy, free men. A peasant defending his farm (and heaven knows the Vikings alone created enough of these scenarios) would fight with whatever was at hand. In an army assembled for concerted action, however, any peasants present would be working in the baggage train (or possibly employed as pillagers), not standing on the front lines.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
The idea of mass levies composed of peasants armed with agricultural implements is largely a myth. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Germany, many of the peasants are depicted wearing short hanger swords going about their daily business.

Then by the early 16th c, you see landsknechts (which were often from the middle and lower classes) with short back up swords called katzbaulgers.Many of the ranks of pikemen were originally farmers.

Juliana

But Landscknects aren't levies, and what you were before you started trailing the pike hardly matters. Most levy troops were required by law to show up armed and paid a fine if they did not, at least in England. What you showed up in and with varied according to your property's and movable goods assesed value, and the terms of your village's feudal obligations. The various Asize (sp) rolls show this quite cleary. Nobody wants a bunch of clueless primes getting in the way.
slainte,
Fearghus

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"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
Fearghus's Homepage

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vermin:
<B>Well, not pitchfork per se.....
But a short spear is pretty much the same thing.
you can't slash with either weapon....

Now I have this image of a member of the chiv being surrounded in mellee at Pennsic..... by a bunch of folks with short spears and burlap tabbards....

Now there's a historical combat challange scenario idea......(grin)

VvS</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its been done at an event called Peasant's Revolt. A guy made a short spear with flexible non-functional "tines" on either side of the shaft. Very amusing.