Who here has built one of these?

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:19 am

I'm talking about the padded practice swords on the ARMA website..I want to build a few weapons myself, but would like a little clarification, or better yet, pictures showing the finished product. Photos of the end result might be very helpful.

I think I've figured out how I could modify the axe and flail instructions to make kasura-gama, but still don't know how to do a katana or chinese broadsword.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:08 pm

I used to play a little bit with the arma dfw gang. You can modify the instructions, but the biggest thing to look out for is the weight. Every one of these things I ever saw was like handling a godentag rather than a longsword: that fits with the arma cutting philosophy and footwork, but won't do you any good for normal fencing or asian weapons.

Shane Smith · Post by **Shane Smith** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:08 pm

I have made and used(and broken!) alot of them on my fellow ARMA Swordsmen(they returned the favor!).They are the closest thing to a safe,yet realistic weapon devised thus far.I will see if I can find a link I have floating around that gives precise details with good photos.Failing that,I'd be happy to answer any questions if you run into snags along the way.I think there is also a step-by-step on our site somewhere.

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Shane Smith
ARMA~Virginia Beach

[This message has been edited by Shane Smith (edited 01-16-2003).]

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:48 pm

The ARMA main site said something like "To construct curved weapons, consult with an experienced member" or something like that. Well, as much as I would love to do so, there are none living in my area, so I am limited to the internet.

Some of the drawings on the ARMA site showed curved swords that reminded me of chinese broadswords. I want a pair of those.

As for regular fencing, I did that for awhile, and prefer freestyle fighting- none of this sporting "gamesmanship" business, just do whatever works for you (within reason, safetywise)

And thanks for the help in advance, Shane. I can't wait to see the pictures

[This message has been edited by Aminata (edited 01-16-2003).]

Shane Smith · Post by **Shane Smith** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:04 pm

Aminata, heres the link. http://www.anomaly.org/wade/paddedsword/index.html The instructions are for a longsword but you can make asian-style weapons using the same basic techniques.You just need wider oak slats so that you can get the curved profile you're after by stock removal.The padding,sleaving, etc. method remains the same.Let me know if I can help any further.

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Shane Smith
ARMA~Virginia Beach

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:22 am

No, what I meant by regular fencing is something different... the padded weapons are terrible for blade-on-blade actions.

I see that Shane is helping you with links. I have also found good success, when making curved sabre toys, to use a wooden mockup of the weapon (a cheap 4-dollar red oak job will do it), and seriously pad the end with pipe foam. What you get isn't QUITE as safe as the ARMA models, but the striking edges are good.

Finally, although I know this will discomfit Shane, consider talking to some boffer groups. Lance Chan, who hangs out on the Swordforum International, does this inter-m.a.-school sparring thing, and has constructed a wide variety of toys, all of which seem to handle fine. Boffers used to look just terrible, but as I've been seeing, their construction and performance has improved dramatically in the past six or seven years.

Shane Smith · Post by **Shane Smith** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:15 am

Russ has a point.The padded weapons are not very suitable for many winding and sliding/gliding maneuvers due to the friction caused by the cloth sleeve.

For that reason and others,an aspiring Swordsman must not become too dependant on any one training tool,that is why ARMA utilizes wasters,padded weapons,blunts and sharps in our comprehensive curiculum. To do otherwise would surely lead to a misunderstanding of the principles as well as a falsity of technique and application.

When it comes to ARMA's emphasis on powerful footwork, I will simply let Master Ringeck's words speak in my stead;"If you strike an oberhau from the right side,follow the blow with your right foot.If you do not,the blow is wrong and ineffective,because your right foot stays behind.Because of this the blow will fall short and cannot travel in it's proper arc to the left side.If you strike from the left side and do not follow the blow,it too is wrong.That is why no matter from which side you are striking follow the blow with the same foot.So you will succeed in all techniques.This is how ye shall strike all blows"...Sigmund Ringeck commentaries on Johann Liecthenhauer's fechtbuch c.1389-1440.

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Shane Smith
ARMA~Virginia Beach

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:26 am

EDIT: I make some critiques regarding ARMA's training tool and how it affects training here. The following remarks are intended in a purely constructive manner

---Orig. Post-----
Yeah, Shane, you're right... I know you guys are Strong Ringeckians in your fencing, as opposed to Talhofferites or Dobringer men, but what I saw in practice with your dfw group was that because the sparring tools didn't allow for good blade-on-blade motion **while sparring,** they didn't happen. So a necessary component of the training wound up not being present inside the "now try to apply this on a living person" phase.

I'm totally untrained with the longsword, but because my lineage with the sabre and fokos involves quite a number of winden, I used to cut rings around your fellows when sparring, because I'd learned with the hungarian weapons to apply those motions on the go and with chaotic rhythms, and they hadn't -- and I think that a modification of your sparring weapon would take care of the problem entirely. Ringeck w/o being able to do meisterhau is a lot like really bad kenjutsu... but fix that problem, with a slick surface and a drop in weight, and they'd be pretty good.

[This message has been edited by Russ Mitchell (edited 01-17-2003).]

Shane Smith · Post by **Shane Smith** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:01 pm

Russ, Please see my above note on not being too dependant on one tool in ones pursuit of competency with the sword.I will concede that our padded weapons are not perfect but they ARE the best option currently available for general issue to complement the other three primary tools in our arsenal in my opinion.That said,we are always upgrading our training equipment in our effort to achieve as much realism as possible.The ARMA padded weapon is in a continual state of R&D with improvements being discovered and implemented continually.As for the focus of DFW,I can't attest to that one way or another having never sparred with any of them,I can only speak of myself, ARMA Virginia Beach and John.We are heavily inclusive of the work of Fiore,Talhoffer and many others besides.I think you are making the mistake of casting a overly broad net when you discuss ARMA's methods and sources(Ringeckian?lol!).We as a group do NOT exclude any historically validated source of knowledge.In fact,to do so would be strictly against the very spirit and goal of our organization.

Best regards...

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Shane Smith
ARMA~Virginia Beach

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:24 pm

Fair enough, Shane, I can only speak to what I've seen. When your MarkIII comes out, I'll definitely take a look.

Shane Smith · Post by **Shane Smith** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:00 pm

I'll keep you posted.

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Shane Smith
ARMA~Virginia Beach

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:51 am

Thanks for the links, Shane..I think I can make this work alot better now.
As for the blade cover, I remember seeing a silvery coloured raincoat material- vinyl with a fabric backing. As it probably would not take a whole lot of it to make a blade cover, it would be interesting to experiment with- it might cut down on the friction problems.

As for kama or kasura-gama, I think I figured out how to do these too- for the kama, follow the instructions for the basic axe, but the cutting edge will run crosswise to the blade, on the bottom edge of the weapon's head, rather than parallel to its handle.
For kasura gama, make yourself a basic kama, but use the instructions for the flail in order to make the chain and weight part of the thing. I can't wait to try this stuff. Again, thanks!

[This message has been edited by Aminata (edited 01-18-2003).]

Shane Smith · Post by **Shane Smith** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:29 pm

Let me know how the vinyl sleeve works if you go that route.I'm always looking for a better way of doing things.I was thinking of trying heavy nylon as a sleeve on my next padded-weapon reasoning that it will have less friction than canvas.I don't know if durability will be to par though.

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Shane Smith
ARMA~Virginia Beach

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 5:28 pm

About the heavy nylon- I don't know if this would work, but perhaps sewing the cloth cover out of two layers of fabric might do the trick- in essence, lining the thing.
Either use two layers of nylon, or an outer layer of nylon and an inner layer of canvas. Like I said- try checking out the rainwear fabric next time you go shopping. By it's nature, it is designed to be smooth enough to repel or at least resist water.
I also contemplated taking silver spray paint to a regular blade cover to improve its looks..I wonder what effect it would have on the surface?

rpleasant · Post by **rpleasant** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Russ Mitchell:
I know you guys are Strong Ringeckians in your fencing, as opposed to Talhofferites or Dobringer men, but what I saw in practice with your dfw group was that because the sparring tools didn't allow for good blade-on-blade motion **while sparring,** they didn't happen. So a necessary component of the training wound up not being present inside the "now try to apply this on a living person" phase.

I'm totally untrained with the longsword, but because my lineage with the sabre and fokos involves quite a number of winden, I used to cut rings around your fellows when sparring, because I'd learned with the hungarian weapons to apply those motions on the go and with chaotic rhythms, and they hadn't -- and I think that a modification of your sparring weapon would take care of the problem entirely. Ringeck w/o being able to do meisterhau is a lot like really bad kenjutsu... but fix that problem, with a slick surface and a drop in weight, and they'd be pretty good.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Russ

In the early days of the ARMA DFW Study Group the first padded swords our members made were way too heavy. As our skill in making padded sword has increased so has the weight of our padded swords dropped. The cloth covering does indeed prevent good blade-on-blade actions. However, at no time, even using our worst padded swords, have we been unable to perform the Master Cuts described by Ringeck. We have always been able to cut, thrust, and slice. As Shane has noted, the padded swords play only a very specific role in our training.

One other thing, I donâ€™t remember you doing a lot of sparring at our practices, much less of you â€œcutting ringsâ€

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:27 pm

Randall, while I'm glad to hear that you've had better luck with your sparring tools lately, personal shots like that should have been left off the archive. Now that you've decided to air it in public, let me ask you something: if what you're saying is correct, then why did Sean, George, and the other gentlemen of your group ask me to be the group's longsword instructor?

I am off this thread, and advise you to keep personal shots personal -- I will be happy to satisfy you, IN PRIVATE.

Mike Cartier · Post by **Mike Cartier** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:21 pm

Actually Russ that comment about running rings around another person was the inappropriate comment.
Talking about kicking anyones butt doing anything on a public forum is highly inappropriate in most martial arts circles and indeed shows a lack of martial arts smarts and respect.

Even while trying to sound reasonable you do it again in a parting shot at
Randall who has been quite professional about this and polite towards you.

I would advise you to be more genuine with your sentiments Russ, when people train together in martial arts there is a form of brotherhood that develops, having someone go on a public forum to announce that they "run rings around your folks" and "claim to have been asked to assume the longsword instructor position" is disengenuious and generally mean spirited especially after they invite you to train with them.

And as for that comment about you being asked to assume the longsword instructor position, didn't you just say in a previous post on this thread
"I'm totally untrained with the longsword"?

Are you claiming that you, the person admiting you are untrained with longsword was asked to be the longsword instructor? based upon what knowledge?

We are all on the same path here, I see no need for confrontational attitudes.

Mike Cartier
ARMA-SFL

[This message has been edited by Mike Cartier (edited 01-20-2003).]

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:35 pm

Mike,

I attempted to repost a considerably more conciliatory reply to Randall, but my computer skeezed out. First off, I apologize if I've irritated you or anybody else in your organization... one reason that I closed down the conversation with Shane, I think/hope amicably, is that what happens in one group, two and half years ago, is neither universal nor applicable elsewhere/elsewhen. The phenomena I described wasn't intended to be a slap at ANYBODY. In 2000, the dfw arma group was totally new -- everybody involved was either a total newbie or something very close to it, and in terms of total fencing time I was by far one of the most experienced there. My background with the sabre, where I have experience winding and using the false edge on the fly(but had no clue what "winden" meant), surmounted difficulties the group was having, at that time and in my opinion, in using the longsword. It is no more an intentional insult for me to say that I was able to bring my expertise from the sabre and fokos to bear on the longsword, though I know little to nothing about the weapon besides reading texts, more effectively than for newbies to pick it up cold with a flawed training tool, than for Sean to point out that he could thrust rings around me with the rapier (absolutely correct), or George to point out that he routinedly bopped me in the gut with the big mucking spear of his (also totally true), or, for that matter, that Bob Charron can probably take me with a dagger -- skill in one facet of historical fencing, or any hobby, for that matter, has nothing to do with a person's value, unless we're talking about the membership of some kind of bizarre sword cult.

Although I was asked to take charge of the longsword folks so that Sean could focus on the rapier, I turned it down precisely because what I was doing was an application of sabre work on the longsword, not longsword work itself -- I have no more ability to use historical longsword postures to attack and then simultaneously defend against the response while nailing the concurrently-available opening (the hallmark of the German schools) than I did then... zero. No ability to do it at all. The newbies had trouble using the false edge while sparring, imho due to problems with the MarkII sparring tools that fixed some problems with regular boffers and the MarkI, but raised others at the same time. That's it.

Again, I apologize if I have somehow come across as thrashing your skill, your training, your training method, your grandmother, whatever. I objected to Randall's comment because it put matters that were impossible to describe adequately w/o having had the context of being there up front -- my post to which he objected may have done the same thing. Fair 'nuff?

Mike Cartier · Post by **Mike Cartier** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:18 am

Fair enough

Its easy to misread peoples' meanings on the internet.
Just so we are all still one big happy WMA family