The Armour Archive

Asside from 'You can't get on the field without one'

This another post in a series of 'Matt is gonna fight again, and has forgotten everything during his 3 year sebattical'

Sold all my armour a while back and am starting over.

My questions as follows:

1. What helm offers the best overall advantage to the wearer during SCA heavy fighting (breath, vision, weight, durability, etc...)? (please go into detail)

2. Same question. One restriction. No helms with bargrills. What non-bargrill helm, offers the best overall... etc...

3. What is the absolute worst (most restrictive) helm for fighting heavy? And why?

Thank you for your answers in advance.



------------------
Matthew Broadway
Web site Design - Broadway Design
Founder of The Armour Archive

Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Broadway:
<B>Asside from 'You can't get on the field without one'

This another post in a series of 'Matt is gonna fight again, and has forgotten everything during his 3 year sebattical'

Sold all my armour a while back and am starting over.

My questions as follows:

1. What helm offers the best overall advantage to the wearer during SCA heavy fighting (breath, vision, weight, durability, etc...)? (please go into detail)

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
IMO, lowpoint bascinet with bargril. Good vision, reasonable weight, conformal shape to cause shots to glance, and reasonable price.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>

2. Same question. One restriction. No helms with bargrills. What non-bargrill helm, offers the best overall... etc...
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
t-face Barbute. Good vision, good breathing, sexy tail. No bar grill if made correctly.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
3. What is the absolute worst (most restrictive) helm for fighting heavy? And why?
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
Badly made great helm.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Thank you for your answers in advance.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Jean-Paul.
slainte,
Fearghus

------------------
How long will we fight? We will fight until Hell freezes over. Then we fight on the ice.
Fearghus' Homepage

Gee... I was hoping for more originality Feargus...




------------------
Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive

Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter.

1. What helm offers the best overall advantage to the wearer during SCA heavy fighting (breath, vision, weight, durability,...

Probably an open face bascinet is the best overall helm as far as glancing surfaces and vision. The breath is all just a mind set deal, I can suck just as much air through my closd face sallet as I can through an open face helm.

My philosophy is don't min/max. Pick a time period and use the gear from that time period, even if there is a disadvantage.

------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

Grand philosophy Noe...

I agree for the most part, yet...

I would like to learn to fight first, then, fight in a period kit.



------------------
Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive

Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter.

I would have to agree. If you are looking in general at helms, an open face bascinet or barbute with bargrille. Next question, I would say a T face Barbute with a 1" gap or a Sallet with bevor. I also think that location has something to do with your choice. If you live in the Outlands were there is minimal shade and alot of heat in summer, you would wear a helm that was better than a mild climate area where you may spend more time in the cold. I fight in an open face bascinet with a late 14th century harness. Remeber that visibility is somewhat restricted on certain helms. As for the worst, I would say a Great Helm or Sugarloaf that is a bit to large for your head and gives you the same visibility as looking through a paper towel tube.

Just my opinions.


------------------
With regards and wishes of health, Vivat!

Trystan

It's not really such a grand philosophy, and fighting in a great helm does not preclude your learning to fight.

Of course, it depends on what you are interested in: Are you wanting to learn to fight, or are you wanting to learn to play a game and win tournaments?



------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

Grrrr....

"Are you wanting to learn to fight, or are you wanting to learn to play a game and win tournaments?"

I take it from your tone that it is impossible to want to do both?

I think question 1. and question 2. are at odds with each other. If your fighting people with open faced bargrill helmets you'll be at a disadvantage if you are using a period visor.

"I would like to learn to fight first, then, fight in a period kit."

You might want to reconsider this Matt. Why not learn to fight with a period kit? If you want to use a period visor the longer you wear it the less of a disadvantage it becomes.

Anyway, to get to the recomendations:

1. A well made great helm with aq conical top (like the Pembridge or Black Prince examples)or a sugar loaf. You can enlarge the occular a bit without ruining the look wich helps but isn't strictly necessary.

2. A bascinet with a globular klappvisor.

3. A T-face barbute only if you can live with a couple unobtrusive bars across the vertical part of the "T". Even with .99" inch openings you'll need one at the point where the vertical and horizontal openings meet to keep a 1" dowel out.

As to the worst I'd probably say a pigsnout bascinet.

Jezus... Now I know what it feels like to be on the other end of the argrument...

Guys... I've fought in period kit before... when I used to fight it was full plate and a T-faced Barbute all the way...

Later it became Gothic...

Lets just say, this time... I'm trying out something different for a bit... to see if I can get some of the basic skills of fighting out of the way, a bit o' muscle memory working, and such while not being blinded, hot, and encumbered with 50+ lbs of steel.

You want to hear about the nasty suit I'm wearing that I'm topping off with this helm?

Stop Sign... all the way... (sept for stainless elbows and knees, I hate how 'sticky' aluminum is with articulation)... hocky gloves, basket hilt and aluminum shield... If I'm feeling like it, I'll cover the shield with cloth.

The only reason I'm not using plastic, is because Gundo's got a ton of Aluminum laying around the shop, and no plastic.

I'm gonna wear a big tabbard, and put the red on the inside of the pieces, but that's about all I'm attempting at avoiding being an eye-sore.

Granted... I know better...

But I can make myself a period kit later... Look great on the field... etc...

Right now... I want to focus on learing to fight...



------------------
Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive

Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter.

Depends on what you mean by advantage. If by advantage you mean has the highest percentage chance of turning a sorta good blow into a skip then you want a bascinet. If you want the most visibility and most air flow you want anything with a bar grill. If you mean looks the absolute coolest, that depends on what you like. For me, the latter question is answered with a crested and mantled great helm assuming it is fitted with a matching kit.

Now I'm going to give you my answer to your original question. The one that looks right with my current rig.

Best Regards,

Cailean

------------------
"FORTITUDO a INGENUUS"

his vorpal sword went snicker snack ... Now who on earth would make a snack out of a sword vorpal or otherwise?

Broadway,
I was about to privately warn you about the flame attack I can see coming from this thread, but you are the boss here, and you probably know what's coming...

I wear an open face Sallet that really gives me good vision, and the wide opening at the bottom allows for incredible airflow as well as the added benifit of having the helmet rock, dissipating much of the energy of a shot, while letting me know full well it was good.

For a period helm, I currently have a bellows visor armet on extended order. It will ride only 1/2 inch off my skull, allowing room for padding. By having the visor close to my face, visibility should be similar to a bar grill, and the size will minimize target area....

The worst, a flat top great helm....put on backwards.


by the way, thank you for a great site....

Sir Lothar, East

Lemme' get this straight. You want to use AL and or plastic armor, but won't use a bar grill face? Get Real! You want a competitive helm, get a custom made close fitting, open face helm. Not for "breathing", but for peripheral vision, and weight reduction. Glancing surfaces a plus. My 2 cents.

So when do you found "The Sport Equipment Archive"?

If you go the sport equipment route and still are lousy, then you look bad and your kit looks bad. If you succeed in bargrills how will you ever return to the light?

What? I can't play the devil's advocate every now and then?



------------------
Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive

Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter.

hey ya matt! welcome back. how are the kids?

i'd go with the first few posts and forget all the arguements that are getting ready to rise ehhehe

Broadway:

Grrrr....
"Are you wanting to learn to fight, or are you wanting to learn to play a game and win tournaments?"

I take it from your tone that it is impossible to want to do both?

<endquote>

Hmm. I wasn't really sneering when I wrote that, but smiley's didn't seem appropriate. It was a serious question though.

I don't think that the two ideas are mutually exclusive, but it is much harder to learn to fight authentically than it is to learn to fight for a sport. The reason being, in sport fighting, the techniques are
a reflection of the rules, whereas it is difficult to model actual fighting because it is not a good idea to kill our buddies. Before the flames shoot up, let me clarify my point by saying that the techniques used for sport fighting are just as difficult as for real fighting, it's just that as the techniques reflect the model (as opposed to the other way around in more authentically oriented combat), they are easier to study.

If you want to fight in aluminum, or plastic, or whatever, I don't think it is morally wrong; however, what you are doing is essentially teaching yourself to fight unarmoured. This is fine, if that is what you want to do. However, I have found -- and please believe me, I am far from a hot stick -- that the techniques that you learn when you are lightly/unarmoured are different than those you use when you are fully armoured. If I fight in a baskethilt and leather half gaunts, I am able to whip the sword around much more easily than I would with my mandrake gaunts.

My personal goal is to learn to fight as authentically as possible within a sports setting. Therefore, I lose a lot. However, I try to balance out my skills by fighting under a variety of sports models.

So, it really was a an honest question. I'm just trying to keep my posts shorter.

------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

I am going to disagree with a lot of folks here. I think the best helm for learning to fight in would be a flat-topped great helm. Learn to avoid being hit on the head before you learn to utilize the glancing surfaces of a bascinet.

I am not kidding here. When you can fight effectively in a "disadvantageous" helm, you will be able to really kick tush with your fancy barbute or bascinet. The "landing pad" on the top will teach you to just not let them land their blows there. The narrow eyeslot will teach you to know what your opponent is doing without having to see all of his body. The mockery you endure for wearing it will teach you humility. And it is even more impressive when a fighter in a great helm beats a sport fighter in a bargrill.

So, if what you want to do is learn fighting, use a flat-topped great helm that fits you properly and is padded right. If you want the most advantages right now, even if you won't develop as fast or well as a fighter, go with a bargill bascinet (ick).

-Patrick

1. A close fitting, low point bascinet in 14 or 12 gauge stainless, with a non-mirror polish (satin good), fitted with a decent aventail that goes to the shoulder points and has a bargrill. This is the typical helm most likely to be produced properly, allow you to move freely, has surfaces likely to let blows skip off easier, will not give your opponent a large target, will resist dents better than most helms, you can breath, you can still wear a gorget but that aventail provides an extra safety layer that most helms don't have. 14 gauge dents too easily in the East Kingdom/Atlantia, even in a bascinet, though the bascinet shape helps avoid denting. If you are an accomplished fighter, this is less of a problem, but if you are a beginner or really out of practice? Dent city. If you can't stand stainless for some reason and you plan on fighting a lot, get 12 gauge mild and consider bluing or painting it or getting knighted quickly and squiring an armourer. Everyone with a mild helmet always says they'll keep it polished, then they go to Pennsic and after 7 days it is a rustbucket. Bascinets have two added advantages:

a) It will have a decent resale value. Somebody is always looking for a bascinet and they go with quite a few armour styles.

b) It can be fitted with an exchange visor that is more authentic, either side hinged lifting or center top hinge. So one helm can be used for SCA competitive combat and still used when the authenticity bug strikes. The pig face type/houndskull with the protruding nose can be a bitch to see out of, the flatter klappvisor styles can afford better vision if they fit you right.

If you choose a bascinet, seriously consider a good, solid chinstrap if a bargrill is used, in kingdoms that do face thrusts, often thrusts blast the grills into people's faces when they try to use a bascinet without a chin strap to prevent rearward movement.

2) See the basinet above with pivoting visor option. I also like sallets especially Italian with a pivoting bellows visor, though these don't look as good with an exchange bar grill if that matters and unlike the bascinet, they don't even have the one possible period example of the fish skeleton type bar grill to justify their use. I liked my bellows visor sallet with the tiny occularium, because it was relatively save for jousting and worked well for live steel sword combat, for SCA combat it worked but put me at a big vision disadvantage. Breathing can be a problem, but some bascinets and sallets do allow for pierced/punched visors to let a little more air in, not a lot, but better than nothing.

3) If competitive fighting is not your main goal, and vision and breathing are not a priority (hee, hee), I love great helms, close helms and sallets, celatas, even barbutes. Close helms only go with fairly late armour, try to keep your helmet in the same period and style as your armour. I can't stand the guys in full plate with early spagenhelms. Arghhhh!

Best helmets with a bargrill are probably a nice tight low point bascinet, or a conical of some sort- see one's worn by Duke Lucan, myself, and others. Many of the conicals have essentially the same shape as a bascinet, but have the point move ahead to center.

Best helms (without a bargrill) are probably a barbute with the "magneto" style eyeslot (allows for not having a bar in the center of the "T" and is very period. A good, tight fitting great helm with a number of Breath holes cut in the front also works pretty well.

Another option would be one of Master Ugo's face shaped face plates. They are tight fitting and although the eyeslots seem small, they offer good visibility because they are so close to your face.

The worst helmet to fight in is a period Sallet with a bevor attached to the breastplate. The eyeslot is too small, and the bevor really restricts movement too much to make the helm good.

Actually the worst helm is probably a frog mouthed jousting helm, but if you walk out in one of those you are just asking for trouble

Best helms (without a bargrill) are probably a barbute with the "magneto" style eyeslot (allows for not having a bar in the center of the "T" and is very period. A good, tight fitting great helm with a number of Breath holes cut in the front also works pretty well.

Another option would be one of Master Ugo's face shaped face plates. They are tight fitting and although the eyeslots seem small, they offer good visibility because they are so close to your face.

Alaric

Correct me if I am wrong(as if ya'll wouldn't) but weren't most closed face/eyeslotted helms for use on horseback? When closing on an opponant at any speed you did not need peripheral vision. Only the tunnel vision of forward targets. The great percentage of helms were open faced. Most were only skull caps. Most of the full plate stuff was for the nobles, who rarely fought at all. And on top of it all don't the SCA rules of heavy combat say that we are all fighting in "open face" helms with a maille drape? That should stir somethin' up! Chris

I have Exellent peripheral vision in my sugarloaf helm. However, seeing below someon's belly is a different story. I always though members of the SCA were concidered a "Minor" nobel reguardless of what awards they were givin.

"Everyone with a mild helmet always says they'll keep it polished, then they go to Pennsic and after 7 days it is a rustbucket."

I have a mild steel White Mountain Armoury spangen helm, and every time Adam sees it he is impressed with how well I keep the finish up. It survived Pennsic with no rust, and even tho it is not in top shape by my standerds right now, Adam was saying Sunday how he wants to take a pic of it to show folks that mild helms can be kept nice.
It can be done, it just takes a little dilligence.
As to Matts question, I would have to agree that the best way to go would be a nice close 12g bascinet with a grill and aventail. For non bargrilled I would agree that a T face or corinthian barbute would do the best job. Either way, the most important thing is getting it custom fit to you so it wil be as low profile as possible, and strapping it up properly.
John

My lord,
choose the helm that you like best. Really.
There are a lot of advantages to the bar-grille bascinet - if nothing else, they are in demand, mass produced and hence cheap. I got one as my first helm because it was the cheapest I could find. (Poor college student me). Since then, though, I've regretted it, because it doesn't look as nice as I want. Of course, I'm so vain I think this thread is about me.
(You can always get a bascinet with removable bar grill and a clap visor, for your pretty days. For what it's worth.)

Lyonnete

And the Lady puts it all into perspective.
Thankyou Lyonnette. < Not one thread of sarcasim is ment >

First, since we're all assumed to be wearing a simple, open faced helm and light mail hauberk, IMHO it's best to be as closely armoured to that as possible.

Second, also IMHO you shouldn't let other people's opinions determine what kind of armour you buy. Find what you like, going by whatever criteria you wish. Put it on and go out there and have fun. Almost nobody's going to complain about your helm being OOP, and those that do are just auhtenticity nazis and I don't really listen to them anyways. Remember, SCA stands for Society of Creative Anachronisms, not Society for Compulsive Authenticity.

Just my take on things

BTW, I posted this before reading Chris' post. My apologies for the redundancy.

[This message has been edited by CS-Erasmus (edited 02-06-2003).]