The Armour Archive

Thorstenn wrote:I am of the opinion that EVERY practice is a public demo, somebody is going to see us for the first time and you only get 1 first impression.

Iohne MacGhille Eoine wrote:Okay. Right then, first off, I haven't read through the entire thread. There's a lot to this, but I've got the gist of it, I think.

First, the LARP argument.
Having BEEN a larper in four different systems for years (honestly, they're all the same, for the most part. Different name, same BS..) and I can point one thing out right off the bat. ANYONE can be a fighter, in about 30 seconds flat, as far as their rules go. A tiny bit of effort at home, and viola! A foam/boffer sword/axe/whatever makes joe schmoe a warrior. (Woohoo, lookit me.)

Nobody has to have much, if any, real skill, either in fighting or armoring. The "weapons" are soft, padded, and ultra-light. Sure, no injuries are a great thing, but...wait...you just hit me HOW many times in less than 8 seconds? (no realism there )

The kicker here, is that there is little, if any, effort required to be a fighter in these games. You don't have to actually make armor (let alone 'authentic' armor) and you don't have to have any actual skill in fighting. Safety is raised, sure, but that's it. With paper tag, you too can be a mighty warrior.

Aaron wrote:Sir Omarad,

I think armour that looks and functions as armour is a good recruitment tool. And it can be made inexpensively at times.

My suggestions:

1. Historical appearance is required on the field at all legally sanctioned SCA activities. If your plastic can fool the A&S armourer, then you’re OK.
2. Bring documentation for what you use and wear. If it didn’t exist or was known to the Europeans prior to 1600 AD, it’s a no-go. The madu goes, etc...and we bring history into our game.
3. Get rid of knee fighting. This is a big negative to recruiting.
4. Counted blows to three (at least). This lets people stay on the field longer than one hit.
5. Armour as worn. If we are going to recruit, good armour is a good recruiting tool. Encourage it. And the armoured can ignore the combat archery…and encourage the knights to armour like knights.

I know that this list will be viewed with scorn by many, but it’s my views.

Gorm wrote:

Thorstenn wrote:I am of the opinion that EVERY practice is a public demo, somebody is going to see us for the first time and you only get 1 first impression.

Practice is where you get your act together...telling someone they can't even *practice* because their covering effort is inadequate is so far beyond the pale it isn't even funny.

The person seeing us for the first time at a practice needs to be told "This is where we learn, we don't necessarily look our best", and that's as far as it should go.

jester wrote:

Aaron wrote:Sir Omarad,

I think armour that looks and functions as armour is a good recruitment tool. And it can be made inexpensively at times.

My suggestions:

1. Historical appearance is required on the field at all legally sanctioned SCA activities. If your plastic can fool the A&S armourer, then you’re OK.
2. Bring documentation for what you use and wear. If it didn’t exist or was known to the Europeans prior to 1600 AD, it’s a no-go. The madu goes, etc...and we bring history into our game.
3. Get rid of knee fighting. This is a big negative to recruiting.
4. Counted blows to three (at least). This lets people stay on the field longer than one hit.
5. Armour as worn. If we are going to recruit, good armour is a good recruiting tool. Encourage it. And the armoured can ignore the combat archery…and encourage the knights to armour like knights.

I know that this list will be viewed with scorn by many, but it’s my views.

1) Required by Corpora of all participants but not enforced.
2) A good idea, but a lot of people are going to be surprised. The madu was just documented, for example.
3 & 4) Counted blows cannot be made the default because the one fighting event that armoured combat must serve is Crown Tournament. I'll be glad to discuss tournament formats in another thread, but Crown Tournament demands a modern tournament format in order to produce a clear winner. Getting rid of the idea that we 'fight to death' or deal 'incapacitating' blows is good and I'm all for it. Besides, counted blows are already allowed. Heck, unless you're in the Midrealm you can fight to submission if you choose to.
5) Armor as worn is allowed. It shouldn't be the default. Again, glad to discuss on a separate thread.

The rules already allow for a tremendous variety of scenarios. But people don't take advantage of them or, when they do, it's to do things like 'Norse Football' or other 'capture the flag' scenarios. The CotT is a good example of what can be done, particularly when hats and belts are involved and people will look the other way when the rules are bent.

Practice is where you get your act together...telling someone they can't even *practice* because their covering effort is inadequate is so far beyond the pale it isn't even funny.

The person seeing us for the first time at a practice needs to be told "This is where we learn, we don't necessarily look our best", and that's as far as it should go

Count Johnathan wrote: I know from experience that it is not easy for any authority figure to come onto a public forum and explain himself to people who seem less than willing to accept his position of importance. It is also difficult to defend ones office and station without coming across like a complete self absorbed egotistical aristocrat.

Count Johnathan wrote:

dukelogan wrote:hey brother,

do you think its impossible for a fighter to take the field and enhance the appearance of our society or is it a requirement that he wear modern things, modern logos, and blatantly modern looking items? do you not think that fighters should adhere to the appearance rules set forth in corpora or are they somehow exempt?

regards
logan

The appearance guidelines state to make a reasonable attempt. I don't have a problem with authentic kits. I encourage researched garb and fighting gear and I appreciate those who do their very best. I like seeing a good quality medieval kit. I do I truly do. I do want people to get out of the craptastic armor and move forward into a more period attempt but I don't hold it against people who basically suck at it. It doesn't harsh my game that they don't dress as well as others. Seriously how many folks wearing pickle barrel armor even attempt to fight in a crown tourney anyway? It's few and far between. Most guys in that gear are well aware that they are outclassed by the fighters who are moving in that direction anyway so most of the blue plastic dudes are either new or they really only come out at larger events (wars) and simply give us more people to hit. Also most of them are in awe of people wearing great kits.

Encourage and promote authenticity not mandate. If crowns want to implement authenticity rules that's cool. It's kind of like keeping up with the joneses and I don't mind that. So far that has been working well and the SCA as a whole looks far better than it used to. It didn't take mandate from the society level to do that. I don't feel that it is needed now.

dukelogan wrote:hey jester,

i missed something. you just said "2) A good idea, but a lot of people are going to be surprised. The madu was just documented, for example."

can you point out what youre suggesting because i have no idea?

regards
logan

jester wrote:

Aaron wrote:Sir Omarad,

I think armour that looks and functions as armour is a good recruitment tool. And it can be made inexpensively at times.

My suggestions:

1. Historical appearance is required on the field at all legally sanctioned SCA activities. If your plastic can fool the A&S armourer, then you’re OK.
2. Bring documentation for what you use and wear. If it didn’t exist or was known to the Europeans prior to 1600 AD, it’s a no-go. The madu goes, etc...and we bring history into our game.
3. Get rid of knee fighting. This is a big negative to recruiting.
4. Counted blows to three (at least). This lets people stay on the field longer than one hit.
5. Armour as worn. If we are going to recruit, good armour is a good recruiting tool. Encourage it. And the armoured can ignore the combat archery…and encourage the knights to armour like knights.

I know that this list will be viewed with scorn by many, but it’s my views.

1) Required by Corpora of all participants but not enforced.
2) A good idea, but a lot of people are going to be surprised. The madu was just documented, for example.
3 & 4) Counted blows cannot be made the default because the one fighting event that armoured combat must serve is Crown Tournament. I'll be glad to discuss tournament formats in another thread, but Crown Tournament demands a modern tournament format in order to produce a clear winner. Getting rid of the idea that we 'fight to death' or deal 'incapacitating' blows is good and I'm all for it. Besides, counted blows are already allowed. Heck, unless you're in the Midrealm you can fight to submission if you choose to.
5) Armor as worn is allowed. It shouldn't be the default. Again, glad to discuss on a separate thread.

The rules already allow for a tremendous variety of scenarios. But people don't take advantage of them or, when they do, it's to do things like 'Norse Football' or other 'capture the flag' scenarios. The CotT is a good example of what can be done, particularly when hats and belts are involved and people will look the other way when the rules are bent.

Sir Omarad wrote:

dukelogan wrote:ive gotten a bunch of emails requesting the url for the appearance rules i put in place so i thought i would just copy them here. if anyone thinks that these rules make it impossible for a new fighter to participate please shoot me an email and explain your concerns so that i can understand them. i open debate on the rules for a year before putting them in place and i felt we addressed things well. if we missed something i really would like to know.

regards
logan


General
The fighter should appear as a reasonable example of a warrior from the SCA's period of study (Pre-17th Century focusing on Renaissance and Middle Ages, per Corpora) to the casual observer.
All armor, shields, and equipment on the field are subject to the acceptance of the Crown or Their chosen representatives.
These rules are to be enforced for all participants on the field (except as indicated in the following). This includes marshals, fighters (both armored and rapier), combat archers, scouts and siege crews. Water bearers are specifically exempt from these rules.


Inspections
Participants will be inspected at the same time as safety inspections and will be asked to sit out if their equipment is deemed unacceptably modern.
Damaged covering materials which expose a modern component will be judged unacceptable during the inspections held prior to any tournament or battle. Damage that occurs after the inspections will not result in ejection from participation in the combat the inspection covered. Combatants should, however, make a good faith effort to repair such damage as soon as possible.


Unacceptable Items
Undisguised plastic may not be used as a component of any armor, clothing, decorative accessories, weapons, footwear or other item worn or used by a participant in combat in the kingdom of Atlantia if that component is completely or partially visible to other combat participants or spectators, unless it is effectively indistinguishable from a period counterpart per the exception below.
Uncovered carpet armor, undisguised sports gear, "blue jeans", military type fatigues, obviously-modern footwear, uncovered hockey gloves and all other undisguised equipment clearly "modern" in nature from 10 feet distant are explicitly banned from the field. This also includes items displaying visible commercial logos and bumper stickers.


The following guidance is provided for determining acceptable forms of footgear:
Leather or leather-look boots, in a color consistent with period practice are acceptable. This includes standard leather combat boots, but would exclude leather/nylon boots.
Use of borderline acceptable footgear that is of a color that causes it to stand out (from at least 10 feet) from the rest of the armor is not acceptable.
Plastic armor or modern sports equipment, whether kydex, ABS, HDDP or other, foam, pads, footwear, etc. should at all times be covered, unless it can positively contribute to the appearance of a fighter.
If the item in question becomes viewable only in certain body positions (such as the sole of modern shoes while kneeling), that is considered acceptable.
All plastic or modern sports equipment must be covered in a manner to disguise the material in an attempt to display historical pre-17th century armor to the average passerby.


Covering
A modern (e.g. plastic materials, modern sports equipment) component may be used if it is hidden from view, by covering it with opaque covering materials not made of plastic, including but not strictly limited to; leather, metal, textiles with a period appearance and, where appropriate, stone or wood. Tapes, foils, films, transparent or translucent materials and any other inadequate or insubstantial coverings shall not be deemed an acceptable covering material. Paints, stains, and dyes are limited to period-looking usage as a covering material.
Covering materials which meet the letter of the law, but violate its spirit, will be banned at the discretion of the Sovereign or Their designated representatives. The spirit of the law includes making a reasonable attempt to recreate the appearance of items that would be used or worn in a melee or tournament in Europe prior to the 17th century in the periods commonly referred to as the Medieval or Renaissance.


Exceptions
Plastic and other modern materials specifically required to promote safety or those that are medically required are exempt from this ruling. However, every attempt must be made, in good faith, to disguise those items. These items include, but are not limited to: eyeglasses or sports glasses when needed to correct a deficiency of vision, safety glasses, orthopedic footwear, required joint braces, etc.
Items of common question (lamellar, lacquered pieces or other unusual, but documented period designs) may be permitted at the discretion of the Crown or Their representative only if the appearance of that item can not be distinguished from its period counterpart and its display embraces the idea of historical pre-17th century armor.
Hand protection and shield edges may be made of plastic materials. However, it is the owner's responsibility to attempt to disguise the appearance of those items to bring them in compliance with the spirit of this law. Uncovered hockey gloves are forbidden.
Duct tape and edge marking tape covering of weapons is explicitly excepted from the ban on the use of tape. Also use of tape for marking of sides in melees is acceptable. The use of duct tape for a field repair of armor will be allowed so long as the failure did not exist at the beginning of the day.
Fencing masks, blade tips/blunts and tip tape are acceptable for use on the field for rapier combat.
APDs and blunts based on plastic and modern materials are explicitly acceptable for combat arrows and quarrels, per Society and Kingdom standards for these items. Visible straping tape is allowed on combat arrows/quarrels to enable proper inspection of the items.
If there are site restrictions regarding use of non-marking soles, waivers for modern footgear may be obtained from the Earl Marshal, relevant deputies or the Crown.
Participants that are residents of another kingdom are to be considered our guests and are exempt from this ruling provided they meet SCA minimum standards. Newly transplanted citizens of Atlantia are to be granted a reasonable period of time (4 months per Kingdom Law, Section 10.1.4.5) to come into compliance with this rule.

Marshals are reminded that the intention of the rule to to attempt to improve the field appearance while still allowing folks on the field. If someone is borderline in compliance, allow them to participate, but notify them of the issue and request they rectify it.

I remember the first time I read through this.
I thought "geez this is long and windy" then I read it and was very impressed at how it really isn't draconian and really covers all eventualities and any issues very well and is very flexible.
Again, Kudos.

you misunderstood my question. i didnt ask about authenticity at all. i asked about appearance. do you think that is is a requirement to be able to take our field with blatantly modern items visually identifiable or not? is there any reason, for example, that a fighter must wear tennis shoes when he fights?

regards
logan

Maeryk wrote:

you misunderstood my question. i didnt ask about authenticity at all. i asked about appearance. do you think that is is a requirement to be able to take our field with blatantly modern items visually identifiable or not? is there any reason, for example, that a fighter must wear tennis shoes when he fights?

regards
logan

Which if these things ISN'T blatantly modern?

(No offense whatsoever to people making and selling these items for use. The point here is that people are saying "blatantly modern" to refer to plastic of a certain color, while utterly ignoring a whole HOST of things we have come to accept as "okay" in the SCA, even though they are about as medieval as my 2006 Saturn.)

Angusm0628 wrote:I'm gonna guess you're a fan of All or Nothing when it comes to the subject on appearance, Maeryk...

MJBlazek wrote:Peer pressure does not work when there are Peers who don't care about how they look.

Maeryk wrote:

Angusm0628 wrote:I'm gonna guess you're a fan of All or Nothing when it comes to the subject on appearance, Maeryk...

Yes and no. I'm _not_ a fan of pretending throwing skull print cotton fabric over plastic looks "more medieval" than just the plastic.

We have this culture of "if it's SCA okay, then it's medieval" which isn't true. If people are going to TRULY claim they are attempting to improve appearance, then this isn't it. Throwing a sheet over the elephant just makes it a sheet covered elephant.

MJBlazek wrote:Peer pressure does not work when there are Peers who don't care about how they look.

Maeryk wrote:

MJBlazek wrote:Peer pressure does not work when there are Peers who don't care about how they look.

Shh now.. we all know it's just the newbs who look like ass. That white belt throws a magical "shield of plausibility" over everything else they are wearing!

Why, it's medieval garb in and of itself!

NeeSayer wrote:

Maeryk wrote:

MJBlazek wrote:Peer pressure does not work when there are Peers who don't care about how they look.

Shh now.. we all know it's just the newbs who look like ass. That white belt throws a magical "shield of plausibility" over everything else they are wearing!

Why, it's medieval garb in and of itself!

This comment is totally uncalled for. You've made it abundantly clear that you have problems with some members of the chiv, and that's fine. This comment though is a unwarrented jab at a group of people that, from what i've seen, are the most helpful about getting people where they should be. Of course there are some that aren't like that and only wear the belt beacause they're hot sticks, but most are good people that try to make the SCA better than how they found it.

NeeSayer wrote:Listen guy, I understand you have this whole devils advocate argument thing you like doing but don't say I need to get out more. I at no point said that every peer is a bastion. I even acknowledged there are some that aren't. I was pointing out that what you said was a dickhead thing to say. You chose instead to convulute it to fit what you view the world as.

OK, a while back I offered to legislate away visible blue plastic.
I was met with a few "hurrahs" and a few "nooooo!'s"from the KEM's.

The Pro's: Authenticity baby step. Better atmosphere.
The Cons: Recruitment barrier to new people.

Offer your opinions, succinctly, intelligently, etc..

MJBlazek wrote:Peer pressure does not work when there are Peers who don't care about how they look.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:I think it SHOULD be the responsibility of officers in the SCA to help maintain the proper degree of appearance, both in the group as a whole, and especially in their "spheres of influance".

And I think it should also be the responsibility of Peers of all stripes to do the same.

AND I think it is the responsibility of the average person in the SCA to help new people, to some degree.
.

Conrad the Mad wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote: I know from experience that it is not easy for any authority figure to come onto a public forum and explain himself to people who seem less than willing to accept his position of importance. It is also difficult to defend ones office and station without coming across like a complete self absorbed egotistical aristocrat.

I am all for you defending your office or station Johnathan.

As you say this is a Public forum, not private, not an SCA forum, several people here dont even play SCA.

That being said you have no office or station here, any more than I do.
I dont care if your a billionaire, head of a mojor corp, or president of the United States, HERE your just another shmoe.

Please try and remember that

dukelogan wrote:you misunderstood my question. I didn’t ask about authenticity at all. I asked about appearance. do you think that it is a requirement to be able to take our field with blatantly modern items visually identifiable or not? is there any reason, for example, that a fighter must wear tennis shoes when he fights?

regards
Logan