Question from the SEM

[MJBlazek]

The greatest attitude that must go the way of the dodo about accurate, or at least accurate lookign armor is: "You can't win in that."

First it makes the assumption that winning is all that matters to the person.

Second it makes the assumption that winning is the most important part of fighting.

[dukelogan]

that also depends on any assumptions you bring onto the field. see for me i assume:

1. my opponent is honorable and would never cheat me or the system
2. my opponent desires victory by way of a hard contest and without questions
3. my opponent desires to be bested by way of a hard contest and without questions, if he is bested
4. my opponent and i are going to do the best we can to stand victorious within the scope and spirit of our sport

with those assumptions it pretty much leaves the importance of the contest on who the better man is that day. since all things are equal in our hearts it is up to the one with the most skill, at that time, to determine the outcome. i often hear folks talk about "winning isnt the only thing" often followed with a nugget like "protecting your honor is more important than winning". i dont get it. that suggests that someone is willing to throw their honor away to win a fake fight. i just dont believe that to be true.

i always try to assume the best of people.

regards
logan

The greatest attitude that must go the way of the dodo about accurate, or at least accurate lookign armor is: "You can't win in that."

First it makes the assumption that winning is all that matters to the person.

Second it makes the assumption that winning is the most important part of fighting.

[MJBlazek]

I look at the Honor vs Winning as this.

You can Win and be honorable.
You can Lose and be honorable.
You can Win and be dishonarable.
You can Lose and be dishonorable.

It is Better to Win with honor than to Lose.
It is Better to Lose with honor than Win from being Dishonorable.
It is better to Lose from Being dishonorable than Winning from Being Dishonorable.

I fight for an experience. I fight for comraderie. I fight for fitness. I fight for respect and I fight to win.
The only thing that cannot be achieved without winning, is winning. The rest, if I am conducting my combat in an honorable way, will happen whether I win or not.

that also depends on any assumptions you bring onto the field. see for me i assume:

1. my opponent is honorable and would never cheat me or the system
2. my opponent desires victory by way of a hard contest and without questions
3. my opponent desires to be bested by way of a hard contest and without questions, if he is bested
4. my opponent and i are going to do the best we can to stand victorious within the scope and spirit of our sport

with those assumptions it pretty much leaves the importance of the contest on who the better man is that day. since all things are equal in our hearts it is up to the one with the most skill, at that time, to determine the outcome. i often hear folks talk about "winning isnt the only thing" often followed with a nugget like "protecting your honor is more important than winning". i dont get it. that suggests that someone is willing to throw their honor away to win a fake fight. i just dont believe that to be true.

i always try to assume the best of people.

regards
logan

The greatest attitude that must go the way of the dodo about accurate, or at least accurate lookign armor is: "You can't win in that."

First it makes the assumption that winning is all that matters to the person.

Second it makes the assumption that winning is the most important part of fighting.

[Count Johnathan]

When my Shires current KM took a brief move to California, I took his position for a short time. While there I put it to the populace to enact our own rules on how we delt with the loaner garb, and the "Cover Up" ruling that came out earlier this year.

We enacted this for the loaner gear.

"All New fighters may use the loaner gear for 1 year. During this year they are to be encouraged and assisted in putting together thier own armor. If by their own doing they fail to compile the necessary armor to fight in this time span they forfit thier right to the exclusive use of the loaner gear. "

After the "Cover Up" ruling came out we ammended.
"When knew fighters take the field, they will be supplied with a shire tabard to cover any blatent modernity. (To include but not limited to sports gear, obvious plastic etc.) If the new fighter is able (with guidance and assistance) create thier own armor within the previously stated 1 Year period, as a token of thier achivement they would be supplied with a New tabard/tunic of thier design from the Shire.
If said new fighter is unwilling to comply with creating thier own armor ni the previously stated 1 year period they forfeit thier right to the use of the Shire Tabard and must return it to the stock of loaner gear. They also forfiet the gift of the custom tabard/tunic and must obtain one on thier own."


So far we have no uncovered plastic/sports gear. (I actually don't think we have anyone fighting in barrel plastic) and only 1 of the 3 sets of lonaer gear is being used out of 4 new and unauthorized fighers.


YMMV
MJ

Super. You just proved that no new legislation from the society level is needed to take care of a "problem" that doesn't exist in your area. Let other areas handle it as they may. Most do if they feel it is necessary.

[Balin50]

Want the SCA to look better to those not members? Then worry about the camps the coolers the tents the GOLF CARTS the GOLF CARTS (had to say that one twice). Those are the things new folks coming to events see the most of. Heck now with CA fighting is not supposed to be a spectator sport ( at least that is what we were told) if that is true what does it matter what we look like.


Really i do not care what people outside the SCA think. I do this for me and my friends in the SCA. OMG someone that i dont know thinks what i am doing is dumb... I am happy for all those that have good kits not everyone wants what you do.

No, you can't make metal armor as easily as plastic. Plastic i can cut with scissors(tin snips) and form in my oven. So plastic is easier and faster.

Balin

[dukelogan]

balin,

the point was/is that if we want to attract folks to our little club we need to look more like a supposed medieval society (the whole "we are knights, look at us" thing) and not some extras from a bad mad max remake. if we can attract more people then you (and i) can continue to do this for ourselves and our friends. i, personaly, would rather have a larger pool of folks to choose my friends from. if i want to share time with the mad max kind or crowd i could easily join one of the organizations that cater to that. i dont, so i chose the sca as my hobby. as did you.

regards
logan

Want the SCA to look better to those not members? Then worry about the camps the coolers the tents the GOLF CARTS the GOLF CARTS (had to say that one twice). Those are the things new folks coming to events see the most of. Heck now with CA fighting is not supposed to be a spectator sport ( at least that is what we were told) if that is true what does it matter what we look like.


Really i do not care what people outside the SCA think. I do this for me and my friends in the SCA. OMG someone that i dont know thinks what i am doing is dumb... I am happy for all those that have good kits not everyone wants what you do.

No, you can't make metal armor as easily as plastic. Plastic i can cut with scissors(tin snips) and form in my oven. So plastic is easier and faster.

Balin

[MJBlazek]

When my Shires current KM took a brief move to California, I took his position for a short time. While there I put it to the populace to enact our own rules on how we delt with the loaner garb, and the "Cover Up" ruling that came out earlier this year.

We enacted this for the loaner gear.

"All New fighters may use the loaner gear for 1 year. During this year they are to be encouraged and assisted in putting together thier own armor. If by their own doing they fail to compile the necessary armor to fight in this time span they forfit thier right to the exclusive use of the loaner gear. "

After the "Cover Up" ruling came out we ammended.
"When knew fighters take the field, they will be supplied with a shire tabard to cover any blatent modernity. (To include but not limited to sports gear, obvious plastic etc.) If the new fighter is able (with guidance and assistance) create thier own armor within the previously stated 1 Year period, as a token of thier achivement they would be supplied with a New tabard/tunic of thier design from the Shire.
If said new fighter is unwilling to comply with creating thier own armor ni the previously stated 1 year period they forfeit thier right to the use of the Shire Tabard and must return it to the stock of loaner gear. They also forfiet the gift of the custom tabard/tunic and must obtain one on thier own."


So far we have no uncovered plastic/sports gear. (I actually don't think we have anyone fighting in barrel plastic) and only 1 of the 3 sets of lonaer gear is being used out of 4 new and unauthorized fighers.


YMMV
MJ

Super. You just proved that no new legislation from the society level is needed to take care of a "problem" that doesn't exist in your area. Let other areas handle it as they may. Most do if they feel it is necessary.

But you missed the part where it was legislated.
If it had already been a rul in place we wouldn't have needed to take the time and rescources away from other things to put this one in place.

[Count Johnathan]

Time and effort to write up a new rule on a local level? Takes only as long as it takes to write it down.

I don't buy it as being an issue that the SEM needs to step in and correct. Obviously he doesn't because you guys already took care of it which is my point.

[Balin50]

Well i want new people to come out and play too. So the first thing we should do is find out if the SCA is growing or not. If the SCA is growing then we are already bringing in new folks. Sorry i just do not see the invasion of Madmaxians that you must.

Balin

balin,

the point was/is that if we want to attract folks to our little club we need to look more like a supposed medieval society (the whole "we are knights, look at us" thing) and not some extras from a bad mad max remake. if we can attract more people then you (and i) can continue to do this for ourselves and our friends. i, personaly, would rather have a larger pool of folks to choose my friends from. if i want to share time with the mad max kind or crowd i could easily join one of the organizations that cater to that. i dont, so i chose the sca as my hobby. as did you.

regards
logan

Want the SCA to look better to those not members? Then worry about the camps the coolers the tents the GOLF CARTS the GOLF CARTS (had to say that one twice). Those are the things new folks coming to events see the most of. Heck now with CA fighting is not supposed to be a spectator sport ( at least that is what we were told) if that is true what does it matter what we look like.


Really i do not care what people outside the SCA think. I do this for me and my friends in the SCA. OMG someone that i dont know thinks what i am doing is dumb... I am happy for all those that have good kits not everyone wants what you do.

No, you can't make metal armor as easily as plastic. Plastic i can cut with scissors(tin snips) and form in my oven. So plastic is easier and faster.

Balin

[Gorm]

balin,
the point was/is that if we want to attract folks to our little club we need to look more like a supposed medieval society (the whole "we are knights, look at us" thing) and not some extras from a bad mad max remake.

Your Grace,

I ask again a question that has been asked but never answered multiple times, in multiple forums, over the 9 years this debacle has been ongoing in response to that statement...

Why?

The SCA did perfectly fine from the late 60's until 2002 with an enforced ruleset that allowed lousy "attempts" at armor and garb. Nobody was injured as a result of ugly armor, at least not in any way that could be fixed with a tabard.

Did some folks want to be better? Yes, and they were free to do that, to encourage their compatriots to do that, or, if they felt the SCA structure was holding them back, they could go to another organization, either associated with the SCA loosely or not and be as authentic as they wished.

Was the "state of the art" advancing? Yes, it was. We moved from lawn pimples to excellent pavillions, from freon cans and carpet armor to some kits that were, frankly, excellent. But those improvements were driven by individual desires to raise the bar, self motivated, and recognized.

Until you came in by fiat and said "We're changing this", there was no crisis facing the organization. Folks that wanted to play the game as it stood did so. Those that wanted to improve it did so. Those that didn't moved on and did something else. There was no problem.

What, *precisely* was the grave issue that forced a game change? You've been asked this numerous times, and refused to answer. I am asking you again.

[MJBlazek]

Come on Johnathan,
You of all people should know the time it takes to come up with something that a group of people can agree on.

If there had been some better for of apperence rule off the bat, we wouldn't have had to put any time nto coming up with our own. Becuase it would have already have been there!

We wouldn't have needed to come up with an incentive program to get new fighters covered, because they would have already have hadto be covered.

Time and effort to write up a new rule on a local level? Takes only as long as it takes to write it down.

I don't buy it as being an issue that the SEM needs to step in and correct. Obviously he doesn't because you guys already took care of it which is my point.

[Balin50]

Maybe there wasn't already a rule because one was not needed then as it is not needed now.

Balin

Come on Johnathan,
You of all people should know the time it takes to come up with something that a group of people can agree on.

If there had been some better for of apperence rule off the bat, we wouldn't have had to put any time nto coming up with our own. Becuase it would have already have been there!

We wouldn't have needed to come up with an incentive program to get new fighters covered, because they would have already have hadto be covered.

Time and effort to write up a new rule on a local level? Takes only as long as it takes to write it down.

I don't buy it as being an issue that the SEM needs to step in and correct. Obviously he doesn't because you guys already took care of it which is my point.

[Maeryk]

I don't care how many air dams and dress kits you put on a VW Beetle, it will never, ever, be a Porsche.

[Tyr Palenske]

I don't care how many air dams and dress kits you put on a VW Beetle, it will never, ever, be a Porsche.

Nope, but the engine and transmission fit perfectly. Seen one and driven it.

[Count Johnathan]

Come on Johnathan,
You of all people should know the time it takes to come up with something that a group of people can agree on.

If there had been some better for of apperence rule off the bat, we wouldn't have had to put any time nto coming up with our own. Becuase it would have already have been there!

We wouldn't have needed to come up with an incentive program to get new fighters covered, because they would have already have hadto be covered.

You guys already took care of it as needed on the local level. You're talking about a past adjustment as though it is in need of correction now which it isn't because you already fixed it. Other areas will do so as it suits them on a local level. Problem solved.

[MJBlazek]

Then you must live in a better armoured, and clothed area than I do.

Maybe there wasn't already a rule because one was not needed then as it is not needed now.

Balin

Come on Johnathan,
You of all people should know the time it takes to come up with something that a group of people can agree on.

If there had been some better for of apperence rule off the bat, we wouldn't have had to put any time nto coming up with our own. Becuase it would have already have been there!

We wouldn't have needed to come up with an incentive program to get new fighters covered, because they would have already have hadto be covered.

Time and effort to write up a new rule on a local level? Takes only as long as it takes to write it down.

I don't buy it as being an issue that the SEM needs to step in and correct. Obviously he doesn't because you guys already took care of it which is my point.

[MJBlazek]

So it fixes it for 6 people.
6 People who pretty much had to be bribed with the promise of a free tunic.

If this was a mandate across the board there would be no need for it, because it would be a given!

Come on Johnathan,
You of all people should know the time it takes to come up with something that a group of people can agree on.

If there had been some better for of apperence rule off the bat, we wouldn't have had to put any time nto coming up with our own. Becuase it would have already have been there!

We wouldn't have needed to come up with an incentive program to get new fighters covered, because they would have already have hadto be covered.

You guys already took care of it as needed on the local level. You're talking about a past adjustment as though it is in need of correction now which it isn't because you already fixed it. Other areas will do so as it suits them on a local level. Problem solved.

[dukelogan]

gorm,

i think most folks know that i would never "refuse to answer" any question. my narcissism would never permit such a thing!

i honestly dont recall anyone asking me anything like what you suggest. however, if i didnt see it i will certainly repeat the reasoning ive maintained since i first asked for commentary over 8 years ago.

i didnt come in and create, by fiat, anything. i didnt change anything. what i did was create a means by which we could enforce the policy regarding participation at sca events. a policy, i remind you, that had been around for much longer than me.

i heard the silly excuses of "attempts" and found them to be tiresome. tennis shoes are not an attempt at anything medieval. neither are blue jeans or neon colored sports gear and plastic. you know that as much as i do. when i started noticing how many folks didnt care enough to comply with the rules i saw the majority of them were on the field! the center attraction at most events. the place were those of the most recognition mingled (meaning, we all know a knight when we see one because of regalia). how is it that the field by which our rulers are created can be the worst example of nose snubbing the very simple rules for attendance?

it made no sense and it clearly was something that was easy to address. and we did. and we are better for it. we set the bar, we set the example, we lead the way and others have followed. still to this day there are folks that cry out about how impossible our appearance standard would be for their buddies and how it will do nothing but drive folks away. yet, atlantia has eight years of proof that both of those statements are totally false.

sorry gorm, not a new rule. not a change. more like a flashlight being pointed at the dark hippo over in the corner that nobody wants to admit is there. you dont like having to adhere to the very standard the sca put in place a long time ago regarding appearance (the generic you of course)? youre not welcomed to take the field. you think its unfair to demand people follow the rules that you (generic) dont really like? push to change them on a society level.

if folks put half as much energy into showing they care enough about the charter of the sca to fix up their horrible looking mad max kits as they do into crying that its too hard i think they would be amazed at how easy it is and how much it enhances our society.

regards
logan

ps i hope that answers the question gorm, at least from my perspective (we all know you wont agree with it). if not, please let me know more specifically what you are looking to understand and i will try to do that.

balin,
the point was/is that if we want to attract folks to our little club we need to look more like a supposed medieval society (the whole "we are knights, look at us" thing) and not some extras from a bad mad max remake.

Your Grace,

I ask again a question that has been asked but never answered multiple times, in multiple forums, over the 9 years this debacle has been ongoing in response to that statement...

Why?

The SCA did perfectly fine from the late 60's until 2002 with an enforced ruleset that allowed lousy "attempts" at armor and garb. Nobody was injured as a result of ugly armor, at least not in any way that could be fixed with a tabard.

Did some folks want to be better? Yes, and they were free to do that, to encourage their compatriots to do that, or, if they felt the SCA structure was holding them back, they could go to another organization, either associated with the SCA loosely or not and be as authentic as they wished.

Was the "state of the art" advancing? Yes, it was. We moved from lawn pimples to excellent pavillions, from freon cans and carpet armor to some kits that were, frankly, excellent. But those improvements were driven by individual desires to raise the bar, self motivated, and recognized.

Until you came in by fiat and said "We're changing this", there was no crisis facing the organization. Folks that wanted to play the game as it stood did so. Those that wanted to improve it did so. Those that didn't moved on and did something else. There was no problem.

What, *precisely* was the grave issue that forced a game change? You've been asked this numerous times, and refused to answer. I am asking you again.

[MJBlazek]

I am all for helping those who want to, but cannot afford to.
I am not for having those that can afford to, but have no want.


If we lose some of those due to "over legislation," I have no problem in seeing them go. Because if further examined they probably didn't really want to be here in the first place.

[Maeryk]

gorm,

i think most folks know that i would never "refuse to answer" any question. my narcissism would never permit such a thing!

i honestly dont recall anyone asking me anything like what you suggest. however, if i didnt see it i will certainly repeat the reasoning ive maintained since i first asked for commentary over 8 years ago.

i didnt come in and create, by fiat, anything. i didnt change anything. what i did was create a means by which we could enforce the policy regarding participation at sca events. a policy, i remind you, that had been around for much longer than me.

i heard the silly excuses of "attempts" and found them to be tiresome. tennis shoes are not an attempt at anything medieval. neither are blue jeans or neon colored sports gear and plastic. you know that as much as i do. when i started noticing how many folks didnt care enough to comply with the rules i saw the majority of them were on the field! the center attraction at most events. the place were those of the most recognition mingled (meaning, we all know a knight when we see one because of regalia). how is it that the field by which our rulers are created can be the worst example of nose snubbing the very simple rules for attendance?

it made no sense and it clearly was something that was easy to address. and we did. and we are better for it. we set the bar, we set the example, we lead the way and others have followed. still to this day there are folks that cry out about how impossible our appearance standard would be for their buddies and how it will do nothing but drive folks away. yet, atlantia has eight years of proof that both of those statements are totally false.

sorry gorm, not a new rule. not a change. more like a flashlight being pointed at the dark hippo over in the corner that nobody wants to admit is there. you dont like having to adhere to the very standard the sca put in place a long time ago regarding appearance (the generic you of course)? youre not welcomed to take the field. you think its unfair to demand people follow the rules that you (generic) dont really like? push to change them on a society level.

if folks put half as much energy into showing they care enough about the charter of the sca to fix up their horrible looking mad max kits as they do into crying that its too hard i think they would be amazed at how easy it is and how much it enhances our society.

regards
logan

ps i hope that answers the question gorm, at least from my perspective (we all know you wont agree with it). if not, please let me know more specifically what you are looking to understand and i will try to do that.

balin,
the point was/is that if we want to attract folks to our little club we need to look more like a supposed medieval society (the whole "we are knights, look at us" thing) and not some extras from a bad mad max remake.

Your Grace,

I ask again a question that has been asked but never answered multiple times, in multiple forums, over the 9 years this debacle has been ongoing in response to that statement...

Why?

The SCA did perfectly fine from the late 60's until 2002 with an enforced ruleset that allowed lousy "attempts" at armor and garb. Nobody was injured as a result of ugly armor, at least not in any way that could be fixed with a tabard.

Did some folks want to be better? Yes, and they were free to do that, to encourage their compatriots to do that, or, if they felt the SCA structure was holding them back, they could go to another organization, either associated with the SCA loosely or not and be as authentic as they wished.

Was the "state of the art" advancing? Yes, it was. We moved from lawn pimples to excellent pavillions, from freon cans and carpet armor to some kits that were, frankly, excellent. But those improvements were driven by individual desires to raise the bar, self motivated, and recognized.

Until you came in by fiat and said "We're changing this", there was no crisis facing the organization. Folks that wanted to play the game as it stood did so. Those that wanted to improve it did so. Those that didn't moved on and did something else. There was no problem.

What, *precisely* was the grave issue that forced a game change? You've been asked this numerous times, and refused to answer. I am asking you again.

In other words, you decided to re-interpret "an attempt" to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than what it had clearly meant for the preceeding THIRTY YEARS?

Ah. that clears it RIGHT up.

You know, I could see all this kerfuffle and bluster if the SCA had started out as some model of Medieval Appearance and Action, that had seriously slid "downhill" over the years.. but in fact, it's been pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I don't get why some folks feel the need (or that they are the anointed ones who have been appointed) to fuck around with other people's fun to satisfy their own desire to be, well, someone who fucks around with others fun.

[Gorm]

i heard the silly excuses of "attempts" and found them to be tiresome.

So...in short, you appointed yourself the judge, jury, and executioner of the term "attempt".

That's exactly what i have suspected all along, thank you for confirming it.

I stand by my assertion that there was, and still is, no need for this rule. The SCA was advancing before it, it has advanced after it, it would continue advancing if it was repealed. It is not being enforced currently, it is a useless appendage on Atlantian Red Tape.

[Count Johnathan]

So it fixes it for 6 people.
6 People who pretty much had to be bribed with the promise of a free tunic.

If this was a mandate across the board there would be no need for it, because it would be a given!

Wait. You wrote new legislation to punish 6 people? Is that a joke?

I bet legislation would not have been required for you to get those guys in better kits. Just some kindness and offering of assistance.

See the BPWAA thread for details.

[Kilkenny]

So it fixes it for 6 people.
6 People who pretty much had to be bribed with the promise of a free tunic.

If this was a mandate across the board there would be no need for it, because it would be a given!

Come on Johnathan,
You of all people should know the time it takes to come up with something that a group of people can agree on.

If there had been some better for of apperence rule off the bat, we wouldn't have had to put any time nto coming up with our own. Becuase it would have already have been there!

We wouldn't have needed to come up with an incentive program to get new fighters covered, because they would have already have hadto be covered.

MJ, you're actually sabotaging your position

An overarching rule that applied everywhere probably wouldn't have worked as well for your group (or the group next door, or the group on the other side of the world) as the local rule your group came up with.

It genuinely is true that the problems of any given area are almost entirely unique to that particular area. Broadbrush solutions to problems that may not exist in other areas are not a panacea. In fact, they may create more problems than they cure. They may attempt to address your local problem, but do it without any local perspective and in so doing harm more than they help.

One of the fundamentals in how the SCA has worked all along is that some of the rules are vague. "Attempt" is not defined at the corporate level - or at least has not been for the vast majority of the existence of the SCA. That leaves lots of room for different areas to develop different interpretations of what constitutes an "attempt", without having to get into providing an overarching definition from on-high - - - which would not be accepted and enforced by many groups no matter what it might be.

We get to press these issues at the local level, through our actions and interests and our involvement. Groups may tend toward fantasy rather than history - if that's what the people in that area prefer to do. Others may go the opposite direction as it is what they choose to do. Each may find going to an event attended by many of the other to be less than pleasant - and neither should be advocating for the other to be banned.

[MJBlazek]

^ and Future.
But d oyou honestly think that that approach was not tried, and/or considered when discussing it?

So it fixes it for 6 people.
6 People who pretty much had to be bribed with the promise of a free tunic.

If this was a mandate across the board there would be no need for it, because it would be a given!

Wait. You wrote new legislation over 6 people? Is that a joke?

I bet legislation would not have been required for you to get those guys in better kits. Just some kindness and offering of assistance.

See the BPWAA thread for details.

[Count Johnathan]

^ and Future.
But d oyou honestly think that that approach was not tried, and/or considered when discussing it?

All you guys had to do was tell them their attempt was not reasonable. Additional effort was needed to meet the already existing guidelines.

That's it.

No new legislation required.

[Angusm0628]

In other words, you decided to re-interpret "an attempt" to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than what it had clearly meant for the preceeding THIRTY YEARS?

Ah. that clears it RIGHT up.

You know, I could see all this kerfuffle and bluster if the SCA had started out as some model of Medieval Appearance and Action, that had seriously slid "downhill" over the years.. but in fact, it's been pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I don't get why some folks feel the need (or that they are the anointed ones who have been appointed) to fuck around with other people's fun to satisfy their own desire to be, well, someone who fucks around with others fun.

Hang on a sec here M.. Have we or have we not read your bemoanings bout folks running round in ICP t-shirts, Utilikilts and Jungle boots at Pennsic who were clearly not heading in to town/off site ? Haven't you said a time or two "things outta be done"?
Can't be both ways, either there is a concerted society wide effort to "do that somethin' that outta be done" or not a damn thing gets done and the vampires, elves, zombies and werewolves and exposed plastic warriors have a place at the fire and the battlefield like everyone else...

[Count Johnathan]

An overarching rule that applied everywhere probably wouldn't have worked as well for your group (or the group next door, or the group on the other side of the world) as the local rule your group came up with.

It genuinely is true that the problems of any given area are almost entirely unique to that particular area. Broadbrush solutions to problems that may not exist in other areas are not a panacea. In fact, they may create more problems than they cure. They may attempt to address your local problem, but do it without any local perspective and in so doing harm more than they help.

One of the fundamentals in how the SCA has worked all along is that some of the rules are vague. "Attempt" is not defined at the corporate level - or at least has not been for the vast majority of the existence of the SCA. That leaves lots of room for different areas to develop different interpretations of what constitutes an "attempt", without having to get into providing an overarching definition from on-high - - - which would not be accepted and enforced by many groups no matter what it might be.

We get to press these issues at the local level, through our actions and interests and our involvement. Groups may tend toward fantasy rather than history - if that's what the people in that area prefer to do. Others may go the opposite direction as it is what they choose to do. Each may find going to an event attended by many of the other to be less than pleasant - and neither should be advocating for the other to be banned.

Well said your Grace.

[Maeryk]

In other words, you decided to re-interpret "an attempt" to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than what it had clearly meant for the preceeding THIRTY YEARS?

Ah. that clears it RIGHT up.

You know, I could see all this kerfuffle and bluster if the SCA had started out as some model of Medieval Appearance and Action, that had seriously slid "downhill" over the years.. but in fact, it's been pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I don't get why some folks feel the need (or that they are the anointed ones who have been appointed) to fuck around with other people's fun to satisfy their own desire to be, well, someone who fucks around with others fun.

Hang on a sec here M.. Have we or have we not read your bemoanings bout folks running round in ICP t-shirts, Utilikilts and Jungle boots at Pennsic who were clearly not heading in to town/off site ? Haven't you said a time or two "things outta be done"?
Can't be both ways, either there is a concerted society wide effort to "do that somethin' that outta be done" or not a damn thing gets done and the vampires, elves, zombies and werewolves and exposed plastic warriors have a place at the fire and the battlefield like everyone else...

Do I wish the people who have NO interest in the SCA as anything but drunken party or place to sell their yardsale crap would find another party? Sure.

But if there's gonna be a "rule" it needs to be overarching.. and from the top down.

It needs to involve THE WHOLE SOCIETY.. not just the kitchen, not just court, not just the battlefield.

Would I love to see everyone move towards medieval gear? Sure. But, as I've said before.. if you wanna wear hobnails, get hobnails. Don't cover modern cleats with an old purse and claim it's "an attempt" at medieval anything.. cause it's not. It's modern cleats with an old purse glued over them.

I don't think the right way to go about this is threats of pulling warrants and stopping fighting until people "toe your line".

Especially when what you are basically doing is a fundamental change to the way things have been, have been understood, and have been _explained_ for 40 some years.

[dukelogan]

depends on which side of his mouth hes using. so long as he is arguing he doesnt care. from another thread:

Honestly, I don't get this WE NEED TO RECRUIT MORE PEOPLE AHHH! mentality. No, we don't. We need to GET RID of a bunch of people, far as I'm concerned. There's too many damned fringies around so as it is. Send them off to yarr pyrate larps. Let them go there and lurch around drunkenly dressed in OOP garb. We don't need em, we don't want em, and we sure as hell don't have to try to embrace them.

and for the whole "Well, maybe in 10 years, they might come around!" That's going to happen whether they spend 10 years playing with us, or not. In the meantime, go to some group that appreciates lightning bolts, pirates, and Conan having a +4 attack roll because he is blessed by Crom.

regards
logan

In other words, you decided to re-interpret "an attempt" to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than what it had clearly meant for the preceeding THIRTY YEARS?

Ah. that clears it RIGHT up.

You know, I could see all this kerfuffle and bluster if the SCA had started out as some model of Medieval Appearance and Action, that had seriously slid "downhill" over the years.. but in fact, it's been pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I don't get why some folks feel the need (or that they are the anointed ones who have been appointed) to fuck around with other people's fun to satisfy their own desire to be, well, someone who fucks around with others fun.

Hang on a sec here M.. Have we or have we not read your bemoanings bout folks running round in ICP t-shirts, Utilikilts and Jungle boots at Pennsic who were clearly not heading in to town/off site ? Haven't you said a time or two "things outta be done"?
Can't be both ways, either there is a concerted society wide effort to "do that somethin' that outta be done" or not a damn thing gets done and the vampires, elves, zombies and werewolves and exposed plastic warriors have a place at the fire and the battlefield like everyone else...

[dukelogan]

yep gorm i sure did. i asked around and got 100% support for my idea that blue jeans, tennis shoes, and hockey elbows were not any attempt at all to visually portray the middle ages. im sorry if that is above your capacity to understand. but hey, if you think those things are legit attempts i guess you have a right to be all up in arms.

just do me a favor, if you attend something like a demo in your blue jeans and t-shirt dont get upset when you talk about your cool "medieval clothing" and the kids laugh at you.

logan

i heard the silly excuses of "attempts" and found them to be tiresome.

So...in short, you appointed yourself the judge, jury, and executioner of the term "attempt".

That's exactly what i have suspected all along, thank you for confirming it.

I stand by my assertion that there was, and still is, no need for this rule. The SCA was advancing before it, it has advanced after it, it would continue advancing if it was repealed. It is not being enforced currently, it is a useless appendage on Atlantian Red Tape.

[Angusm0628]

But if there's gonna be a "rule" it needs to be overarching.. and from the top down.

It needs to involve THE WHOLE SOCIETY.. not just the kitchen, not just court, not just the battlefield.

Would I love to see everyone move towards medieval gear? Sure. But, as I've said before.. if you wanna wear hobnails, get hobnails. Don't cover modern cleats with an old purse and claim it's "an attempt" at medieval anything.. cause it's not. It's modern cleats with an old purse glued over them.

Ahh I got ya, We will have to agree to disagree. I consider my cleats covered to look like a turnshoe an attempt to look like a turnshoe. I don't call it a turnshoe however. I call it them Talun MkII's fighting shoes which is what they are. BUT, folks outside the SCA at demo's don't see the cleats, they see what appears to them to be a well done kit.
I consider a plastic churburg covered under surcoat and giving a proper profile an attempt at looking like period armour I don't call it period armour.
The appearance difference between a white sneaker and a white sneaker covered with some form of spat is actually significant. One is glaring the other not so much to someone who is not "In the know".
That is an easily achievable baseline for anyone. One can give the appearance of a proper kit, without using proper materials. And the only people who will know the difference is us.
It's actually cool when a new guy looks at some of the kits I've worked on over the years and realizes what looked damn hard to do is easily achievable when you know how to do the cheats without sacrificing the overall visual effect.
It's the overall visual effect we are looking for after all isn't it?

[dukelogan]

i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

^ and Future.
But d oyou honestly think that that approach was not tried, and/or considered when discussing it?

All you guys had to do was tell them their attempt was not reasonable. Additional effort was needed to meet the already existing guidelines.

That's it.

No new legislation required.

[Maeryk]

depends on which side of his mouth hes using. so long as he is arguing he doesnt care. from another thread:

Honestly, I don't get this WE NEED TO RECRUIT MORE PEOPLE AHHH! mentality. No, we don't. We need to GET RID of a bunch of people, far as I'm concerned. There's too many damned fringies around so as it is. Send them off to yarr pyrate larps. Let them go there and lurch around drunkenly dressed in OOP garb. We don't need em, we don't want em, and we sure as hell don't have to try to embrace them.

and for the whole "Well, maybe in 10 years, they might come around!" That's going to happen whether they spend 10 years playing with us, or not. In the meantime, go to some group that appreciates lightning bolts, pirates, and Conan having a +4 attack roll because he is blessed by Crom.

regards
logan

In other words, you decided to re-interpret "an attempt" to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than what it had clearly meant for the preceeding THIRTY YEARS?

Ah. that clears it RIGHT up.

You know, I could see all this kerfuffle and bluster if the SCA had started out as some model of Medieval Appearance and Action, that had seriously slid "downhill" over the years.. but in fact, it's been pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I don't get why some folks feel the need (or that they are the anointed ones who have been appointed) to fuck around with other people's fun to satisfy their own desire to be, well, someone who fucks around with others fun.

Hang on a sec here M.. Have we or have we not read your bemoanings bout folks running round in ICP t-shirts, Utilikilts and Jungle boots at Pennsic who were clearly not heading in to town/off site ? Haven't you said a time or two "things outta be done"?
Can't be both ways, either there is a concerted society wide effort to "do that somethin' that outta be done" or not a damn thing gets done and the vampires, elves, zombies and werewolves and exposed plastic warriors have a place at the fire and the battlefield like everyone else...

The two are not at odds with each other, Logan.

Only at odds with you.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

[dukelogan]

well that is your goal isnt it. anyway...... so i will ask you the same question im asking johnathan:

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

logan

depends on which side of his mouth hes using. so long as he is arguing he doesnt care. from another thread:

Honestly, I don't get this WE NEED TO RECRUIT MORE PEOPLE AHHH! mentality. No, we don't. We need to GET RID of a bunch of people, far as I'm concerned. There's too many damned fringies around so as it is. Send them off to yarr pyrate larps. Let them go there and lurch around drunkenly dressed in OOP garb. We don't need em, we don't want em, and we sure as hell don't have to try to embrace them.

and for the whole "Well, maybe in 10 years, they might come around!" That's going to happen whether they spend 10 years playing with us, or not. In the meantime, go to some group that appreciates lightning bolts, pirates, and Conan having a +4 attack roll because he is blessed by Crom.

regards
logan

In other words, you decided to re-interpret "an attempt" to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than what it had clearly meant for the preceeding THIRTY YEARS?

Ah. that clears it RIGHT up.

You know, I could see all this kerfuffle and bluster if the SCA had started out as some model of Medieval Appearance and Action, that had seriously slid "downhill" over the years.. but in fact, it's been pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I don't get why some folks feel the need (or that they are the anointed ones who have been appointed) to fuck around with other people's fun to satisfy their own desire to be, well, someone who fucks around with others fun.

Hang on a sec here M.. Have we or have we not read your bemoanings bout folks running round in ICP t-shirts, Utilikilts and Jungle boots at Pennsic who were clearly not heading in to town/off site ? Haven't you said a time or two "things outta be done"?
Can't be both ways, either there is a concerted society wide effort to "do that somethin' that outta be done" or not a damn thing gets done and the vampires, elves, zombies and werewolves and exposed plastic warriors have a place at the fire and the battlefield like everyone else...

The two are not at odds with each other, Logan.

Only at odds with you.