The Armour Archive

ok, i propose we get back to what the sem is asking of us. in the original post he stated:

OK, a while back I offered to legislate away visible blue plastic.
I was met with a few "hurrahs" and a few "nooooo!'s"from the KEM's.

The Pro's: Authenticity baby step. Better atmosphere.
The Cons: Recruitment barrier to new people.

Offer your opinions, succinctly, intelligently, etc..

i think we realize that the "con" listed is, if anything, the opposite and that better appearance actually encourages more folks to check out the sca. i also think the "pro" part is agreed upon by everyone, regardless of their position on legislation. in other words ive not seen anyone post that blue jeans, tennis shoes, and blatantly modern materials actually enhances the medieval atmosphere of sca events.

my opinion is that the sem consider using the exact wording of the atlantian policy. i think the verbiage is clear and easy to understand. it has a proven track record of over 8 years with very little failure (none of which was difficult to correct). it gives plenty of options for compliance, none of which are difficult or expensive or time consuming. it allows for all kinds of leeway such as visible plastic that actually enhances the appearance of the person on the field or such modern things as are medically required.

sir omarad, i support your desires in this and encourage you to consider not re-inventing the rules but simply using a proven system that has been very successful for nearly a decade.

regards
logan

Yup - I agree with Duke Logan on all his points above...

Which doesn't happen THAT often...


.

"Regarded" is not the same as "treated" Logan
I am polite to everyone, and would not treat someone differently, but I might think differently of them, their motives/desires etc.

Several points I'd like to address from the last few pages of comment.

1. I am not looking to re-legislate the "reasonable attempt" rule for the entire SCA "top to bottom" as Meryk wants.
I am only looking for a way to do what has been needed for a long time but do it in a small way that will get the ball rolling at the Kingdom level and perhaps get those that follow me in my office to improve upon what I start.

2. I am focusing on Medieval "appearance" not perfect "authenticity". I do not want my Marshals to have to have a portable library of source material. I want something simple they can check.

3. I am addressing this at the Society level instead of the local level because the local level isn't getting it done after 40 years.
Local and Kingdom guys have so much going on and they change very frequently. A society standard, albeit a very simple and small requirement would be enforced at every Kingdom event and in every Kingdom. That also means that the Interkingdom events that are growing in popularity wouldn't "surprise" folks from lenient Kingdoms with additional requirements.

4. Thanks for all the debate and discussion, it is very helpful.

5. Don't bring up CA!!!! I haven't had a CA related issue ina few months. Shhhhh! it's quiet.

speaking of interkingdom events, how difficult do you think pennsic will be? clearly the generic merc bar codes and many of the tuchux types (meaning that kind of look, not just the tuchux which have a few guys in acceptable kits) will not meet the requirements. i do not think any sca event should be allowed to ignore the rules (we dont do it for weapons or armour requirements regardless of what other organization they are from) but i do think that getting the information out to those fringe groups has to be of upmost priority.

i would hate to see a tuchux (just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever) show up at pennsic to be told that he cant take the field because his catchers shin guards violate the sca appearance standard with his only recourse being "well im not in the sca, im a tuchux and we dont have those rules".

anyway, just wondering if something is implemented on a society level if there is a plan to address situations like that.

regards
logan

Sir Omarad wrote:Several points I'd like to address from the last few pages of comment.

1. I am not looking to re-legislate the "reasonable attempt" rule for the entire SCA "top to bottom" as Meryk wants.
I am only looking for a way to do what has been needed for a long time but do it in a small way that will get the ball rolling at the Kingdom level and perhaps get those that follow me in my office to improve upon what I start.

2. I am focusing on Medieval "appearance" not perfect "authenticity". I do not want my Marshals to have to have a portable library of source material. I want something simple they can check.

3. I am addressing this at the Society level instead of the local level because the local level isn't getting it done after 40 years.
Local and Kingdom guys have so much going on and they change very frequently. A society standard, albeit a very simple and small requirement would be enforced at every Kingdom event and in every Kingdom. That also means that the Interkingdom events that are growing in popularity wouldn't "surprise" folks from lenient Kingdoms with additional requirements.

4. Thanks for all the debate and discussion, it is very helpful.

5. Don't bring up CA!!!! I haven't had a CA related issue ina few months. Shhhhh! it's quiet.

Wait, so the Generic Mercs would have to.. umm.. cover the tabards that are covering their armor?

dukelogan wrote:speaking of interkingdom events, how difficult do you think pennsic will be? clearly the generic merc bar codes and many of the tuchux types (meaning that kind of look, not just the tuchux which have a few guys in acceptable kits) will not meet the requirements. i do not think any sca event should be allowed to ignore the rules (we dont do it for weapons or armour requirements regardless of what other organization they are from) but i do think that getting the information out to those fringe groups has to be of upmost priority.

i would hate to see a tuchux (just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever) show up at pennsic to be told that he cant take the field because his catchers shin guards violate the sca appearance standard with his only recourse being "well im not in the sca, im a tuchux and we dont have those rules".

anyway, just wondering if something is implemented on a society level if there is a plan to address situations like that.

regards
logan

With Pennsic, you go through inspection point once. Will we then have to pull people out of a fight because they are wearing something not allowed when they get onto the field, even if they passed when going through inspection point?

Kilkenny wrote:Without getting into any of the interpersonal conflicts that seem to have taken over the discussion, I'll just point out the following:

The period of time that is included within the SCA's range is greater than the period of time between the latest cutoff date and the present day.

So it is entirely possible to have two excellent representations of period personae standing side by side, have a 21st century person walk up to them and have one of the "period" people be closer chronologically to the 21st century person than to the other "period" person.

What's my point ?

Well, if the plastic, or the blue jeans, or the sneakers are so jarring and disruptive that you can't enjoy the event - how long before the morion, or the spangen, or the armet......

We encompass such a wide range of time that there is no possible way for most of us to have been familiar with one another - the only way to get away from the jarring anachronisms is to narrow focus to a period of a few years.

Now, who really wants to try and push *that* agenda ?

But, Your Grace, that is exactly what some folks here want. They will not rest until a "Committee of Authenticity" is formed--officially or unoffically. This group will pass judgement on your "medievalness" and allow you to attend an event or not. Most people, instead of arguing with them, will simply buy their clothes, armour, chairs, etc. from committee approved merchants. Thus what they see this as a problem will be solved.

The amusing/troubling part will arise when new information is discovered or old information is re-examined, or both. Such studies are always on-going, but they take time to be disseminated and accepted. For instance, R. Hodge's archaeological work on Northern European trade during the ealry middle ages tends to argue with the idea of the break-down of civilization due to isolation. What does this mean for someone interested in that time and place? New information allows old infromation to be seen in a new light: old interpretations and conclusions will be replaced.

Am I being cynical? Paranoid? I remind all that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Mord.

Owynn Greenwood wrote:

dukelogan wrote:speaking of interkingdom events, how difficult do you think pennsic will be? clearly the generic merc bar codes and many of the tuchux types (meaning that kind of look, not just the tuchux which have a few guys in acceptable kits) will not meet the requirements. i do not think any sca event should be allowed to ignore the rules (we dont do it for weapons or armour requirements regardless of what other organization they are from) but i do think that getting the information out to those fringe groups has to be of upmost priority.

i would hate to see a tuchux (just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever) show up at pennsic to be told that he cant take the field because his catchers shin guards violate the sca appearance standard with his only recourse being "well im not in the sca, im a tuchux and we dont have those rules".

anyway, just wondering if something is implemented on a society level if there is a plan to address situations like that.

regards
logan

With Pennsic, you go through inspection point once. Will we then have to pull people out of a fight because they are wearing something not allowed when they get onto the field, even if they passed when going through inspection point?

Yeah.. I hope to hell your tabard doesn't get torn, your armor doesn't need duct tape repair, or your period fighting pants don't get destroyed, forcing you to wear your jeans during the WEEK of fighting there...

i guess it depends what, if anything, the sem puts in place. the atlantian law allows violations if they happen during combat although it does place the responsibility of correcting the infraction, if possible, on the fighter as soon as possible. in other words, if a covering is torn during combat the fighters should try to repair it before his next bout.

will there be folks that will wear something to get inspected and then replace it with whatever he normally wears that isnt compliant? i guess so. the possibility of someone trying to screw the system is always there. however, after the first year i would suspect that it would be resonable to enforce since by then everyone would be aware of the requirements.

so if you see a guy with catchers shin guards on the field i think it is resonable to pull him since the chances that they were appropriately covered at inspection and then somehow both of them had that covering torn off is very unlikely. besides, if you got inspected and passed and then your silly shield elbow cop fell off you dont get a free ride and must leave combat until it is corrected. its a rule and it has zero to do with safety, but still a rule.

anyway, thats just me guessing.

regards
logan

Owynn Greenwood wrote:

dukelogan wrote:speaking of interkingdom events, how difficult do you think pennsic will be? clearly the generic merc bar codes and many of the tuchux types (meaning that kind of look, not just the tuchux which have a few guys in acceptable kits) will not meet the requirements. i do not think any sca event should be allowed to ignore the rules (we dont do it for weapons or armour requirements regardless of what other organization they are from) but i do think that getting the information out to those fringe groups has to be of upmost priority.

i would hate to see a tuchux (just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever) show up at pennsic to be told that he cant take the field because his catchers shin guards violate the sca appearance standard with his only recourse being "well im not in the sca, im a tuchux and we dont have those rules".

anyway, just wondering if something is implemented on a society level if there is a plan to address situations like that.

regards
logan

With Pennsic, you go through inspection point once. Will we then have to pull people out of a fight because they are wearing something not allowed when they get onto the field, even if they passed when going through inspection point?

Yeah.. I hope to hell your tabard doesn't get torn, your armor doesn't need duct tape repair, or your period fighting pants don't get destroyed, forcing you to wear your jeans during the WEEK of fighting there...

All covered in Atlantia's rules, IIRC.

Non-issue.

Maeryk wrote:Wait, so the Generic Mercs would have to.. umm.. cover the tabards that are covering their armor?

Hope so - it was a funny joke once, not so much now, year after year.


.

dukelogan wrote:besides, if you got inspected and passed and then your silly shield elbow cop fell off you dont get a free ride and must leave combat until it is corrected. its a rule and it has zero to do with safety, but still a rule.

ZING!

so if you see a guy with catchers shin guards on the field i think it is resonable to pull him since the chances that they were appropriately covered at inspection and then somehow both of them had that covering torn off is very unlikely. besides, if you got inspected and passed and then your silly shield elbow cop fell off you dont get a free ride and must leave combat until it is corrected. its a rule and it has zero to do with safety, but still a rule.

In your opinion. Apparently in an SEM's opinion it DOES have something to do with safety.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:

Maeryk wrote:Wait, so the Generic Mercs would have to.. umm.. cover the tabards that are covering their armor?

Hope so - it was a funny joke once, not so much now, year after year.


.

Like I said. "I want permission from the highest court to piss on your fun."



And yet again, the single biggest thing that drives people away from the SCA, or keeps them from playing in the first place isn't the appearance, it's not elbow cops under shields.. it's people who think they have a better idea of what fun is than someone else, and who will use their legislative powers to force others to fit that mold.

Whether on a local or societal level, it happens.. and it's, in my experience, the number ONE thing that drives people off. From crusty old Peers who use newbs as punching bags and take pride in injuring folks over and over, to local officers who have to oversee EVERYTHING and tell people what htey can and cannot do, even when it's clearly at odds with the SOCIETY they are participating in.

And yet again, the single biggest thing that drives people away from the SCA, or keeps them from playing in the first place isn't the appearance, it's not elbow cops under shields.. it's people who think they have a better idea of what fun is than someone else, and who will use their legislative powers to force others to fit that mold.

Whether on a local or societal level, it happens.. and it's, in my experience, the number ONE thing that drives people off. From crusty old Peers who use newbs as punching bags and take pride in injuring folks over and over, to local officers who have to oversee EVERYTHING and tell people what htey can and cannot do, even when it's clearly at odds with the SOCIETY they are participating in.

THESE are the folks who get a healthy STFU from me and the folks I tend to event with. Seems to me that more folk could stand to develop some spine, in the face of asshats such as this example gives.

Educate the new participant. Get them into the right book (the knowne worlde handbook, that is) and other 'proper' societal materials, as THOSE are what outline the right and wrong ways to do things. General fucktards (and yes, there are a few in my area) are the folk who need to NOT play, and should go do something else with their time. Like be hermits. (For the record, these are also the same people who are generally disliked by a great many, and have achieved position through attrition...)

dukelogan wrote:speaking of interkingdom events, how difficult do you think pennsic will be? clearly the generic merc bar codes and many of the tuchux types (meaning that kind of look, not just the tuchux which have a few guys in acceptable kits) will not meet the requirements. i do not think any sca event should be allowed to ignore the rules (we dont do it for weapons or armour requirements regardless of what other organization they are from) but i do think that getting the information out to those fringe groups has to be of upmost priority.

i would hate to see a tuchux (just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever) show up at pennsic to be told that he cant take the field because his catchers shin guards violate the sca appearance standard with his only recourse being "well im not in the sca, im a tuchux and we dont have those rules".

anyway, just wondering if something is implemented on a society level if there is a plan to address situations like that.

regards
logan

Sir Omarad wrote:Several points I'd like to address from the last few pages of comment.

1. I am not looking to re-legislate the "reasonable attempt" rule for the entire SCA "top to bottom" as Meryk wants.
I am only looking for a way to do what has been needed for a long time but do it in a small way that will get the ball rolling at the Kingdom level and perhaps get those that follow me in my office to improve upon what I start.

2. I am focusing on Medieval "appearance" not perfect "authenticity". I do not want my Marshals to have to have a portable library of source material. I want something simple they can check.

3. I am addressing this at the Society level instead of the local level because the local level isn't getting it done after 40 years.
Local and Kingdom guys have so much going on and they change very frequently. A society standard, albeit a very simple and small requirement would be enforced at every Kingdom event and in every Kingdom. That also means that the Interkingdom events that are growing in popularity wouldn't "surprise" folks from lenient Kingdoms with additional requirements.

4. Thanks for all the debate and discussion, it is very helpful.

5. Don't bring up CA!!!! I haven't had a CA related issue ina few months. Shhhhh! it's quiet.

Uhh..Acre already has a far more stringent appearance standard than we do, and a more stringent armor standard as well.. not sure why you'd lump those guys in.

Pennsic is really more of a "Coopers" event than an SCA event, although much of the volunteer labor is SCA, not all of it is. Haven't the Tuchux been using Coopers' Lake in August longer than the SCA?

The next biggest war, Estrella, has no where near the out of SCA attendance or "out of period" exposure. It does, however, allowed modern dressed spectators (there are usually a couple dozen).

man, if only we werent the only game in town. if only, in a perfect world full of puppy dogs and rainbows, there were some other group or club that allowed people to do all the stuff we do but only didnt care what people looked like. hmmmm..... see our little club is supposed to be about learning and expierencing some sort of medieval something. if only people were not forced to join our club and we changed what the goal of that club is supposed to be. if only people had a choice.

but clearly they dont and clearly the long time goals of our club, the one that forces people to join, are asking way too much. no wonder people are leaving in droves. well, at least the ones around you apparently are maeryk. ive not had the same luck. ive seen the numbers increase ever so slightly over the years.

look, you seem to hate everything or at least the sca. certainly you have issues with folks that volunteered to do a job and have (oh no ) a different way of interpreting what the goals of the sca are. people that want to see continued improvement and, wait for it, people complying with the rules. if folks were doing that on their own, if the peer pressure were effective enough, if everyone wanted to improve their kits to at least meet the requirements already in place for attending events, then perhaps there would be no need to put into play a policy that enforces those rules on the fighting community. but none of that has worked and its been more than four decades.

look, if a person cant find a way to take the field without his blue jeans or his white sneakers then so be it. wearing a pair of sweatpants seems way easier than finding armour that fits. maybe it isnt. if only there were some other outlet for them to get their "fight on".

i really do wish you some happiness in your life. or, at least, some days that are not filled with so much fear of the world coming to an end or that peers are all overbearing blowhards that just want to put rules on people to keep them down (or whatever goes through your head). but you seem only content to push against the grain, every grain, and offer little constructive objection. arguing to argue isnt the best way to get things to change or stay the same. i know, ive done it many times. it always fails.

logan

Maeryk wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:

Maeryk wrote:Wait, so the Generic Mercs would have to.. umm.. cover the tabards that are covering their armor?

Hope so - it was a funny joke once, not so much now, year after year.


.

Like I said. "I want permission from the highest court to piss on your fun."



And yet again, the single biggest thing that drives people away from the SCA, or keeps them from playing in the first place isn't the appearance, it's not elbow cops under shields.. it's people who think they have a better idea of what fun is than someone else, and who will use their legislative powers to force others to fit that mold.

Whether on a local or societal level, it happens.. and it's, in my experience, the number ONE thing that drives people off. From crusty old Peers who use newbs as punching bags and take pride in injuring folks over and over, to local officers who have to oversee EVERYTHING and tell people what htey can and cannot do, even when it's clearly at odds with the SOCIETY they are participating in.

How many people in atlantia after 8 years are still at the minimum level required to fight?

Balin

try reading what someone says:

just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever

im not familiar with what acre does or doesnt do. it was merely the name of a non-sca group that came to mind just like the tuchux. not sure how i could have made that any more clear.

logan

Maeryk wrote:

dukelogan wrote:speaking of interkingdom events, how difficult do you think pennsic will be? clearly the generic merc bar codes and many of the tuchux types (meaning that kind of look, not just the tuchux which have a few guys in acceptable kits) will not meet the requirements. i do not think any sca event should be allowed to ignore the rules (we dont do it for weapons or armour requirements regardless of what other organization they are from) but i do think that getting the information out to those fringe groups has to be of upmost priority.

i would hate to see a tuchux (just as an example and it might apply to other groups like acre or whatever) show up at pennsic to be told that he cant take the field because his catchers shin guards violate the sca appearance standard with his only recourse being "well im not in the sca, im a tuchux and we dont have those rules".

anyway, just wondering if something is implemented on a society level if there is a plan to address situations like that.

regards
logan

Sir Omarad wrote:Several points I'd like to address from the last few pages of comment.

1. I am not looking to re-legislate the "reasonable attempt" rule for the entire SCA "top to bottom" as Meryk wants.
I am only looking for a way to do what has been needed for a long time but do it in a small way that will get the ball rolling at the Kingdom level and perhaps get those that follow me in my office to improve upon what I start.

2. I am focusing on Medieval "appearance" not perfect "authenticity". I do not want my Marshals to have to have a portable library of source material. I want something simple they can check.

3. I am addressing this at the Society level instead of the local level because the local level isn't getting it done after 40 years.
Local and Kingdom guys have so much going on and they change very frequently. A society standard, albeit a very simple and small requirement would be enforced at every Kingdom event and in every Kingdom. That also means that the Interkingdom events that are growing in popularity wouldn't "surprise" folks from lenient Kingdoms with additional requirements.

4. Thanks for all the debate and discussion, it is very helpful.

5. Don't bring up CA!!!! I haven't had a CA related issue ina few months. Shhhhh! it's quiet.

Uhh..Acre already has a far more stringent appearance standard than we do, and a more stringent armor standard as well.. not sure why you'd lump those guys in.

not clear on what you are asking brother.

regards
logan

Balin50 wrote:How many people in atlantia after 8 years are still at the minimum level required to fight?

Balin

dukelogan wrote:man, if only we werent the only game in town. if only, in a perfect world full of puppy dogs and rainbows, there were some other group or club that allowed people to do all the stuff we do but only didnt care what people looked like. hmmmm..... see our little club is supposed to be about learning and expierencing some sort of medieval something. if only people were not forced to join our club and we changed what the goal of that club is supposed to be. if only people had a choice.

but clearly they dont and clearly the long time goals of our club, the one that forces people to join, are asking way too much. no wonder people are leaving in droves. well, at least the ones around you apparently are maeryk. ive not had the same luck. ive seen the numbers increase ever so slightly over the years.

look, you seem to hate everything or at least the sca. certainly you have issues with folks that volunteered to do a job and have (oh no ) a different way of interpreting what the goals of the sca are. people that want to see continued improvement and, wait for it, people complying with the rules. if folks were doing that on their own, if the peer pressure were effective enough, if everyone wanted to improve their kits to at least meet the requirements already in place for attending events, then perhaps there would be no need to put into play a policy that enforces those rules on the fighting community. but none of that has worked and its been more than four decades.

look, if a person cant find a way to take the field without his blue jeans or his white sneakers then so be it. wearing a pair of sweatpants seems way easier than finding armour that fits. maybe it isnt. if only there were some other outlet for them to get their "fight on".

i really do wish you some happiness in your life. or, at least, some days that are not filled with so much fear of the world coming to an end or that peers are all overbearing blowhards that just want to put rules on people to keep them down (or whatever goes through your head). but you seem only content to push against the grain, every grain, and offer little constructive objection. arguing to argue isnt the best way to get things to change or stay the same. i know, ive done it many times. it always fails.

logan

Maeryk wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:

Maeryk wrote:Wait, so the Generic Mercs would have to.. umm.. cover the tabards that are covering their armor?

Hope so - it was a funny joke once, not so much now, year after year.


.

Like I said. "I want permission from the highest court to piss on your fun."



And yet again, the single biggest thing that drives people away from the SCA, or keeps them from playing in the first place isn't the appearance, it's not elbow cops under shields.. it's people who think they have a better idea of what fun is than someone else, and who will use their legislative powers to force others to fit that mold.

Whether on a local or societal level, it happens.. and it's, in my experience, the number ONE thing that drives people off. From crusty old Peers who use newbs as punching bags and take pride in injuring folks over and over, to local officers who have to oversee EVERYTHING and tell people what htey can and cannot do, even when it's clearly at odds with the SOCIETY they are participating in.

Yeah, apparently "win crown and ram shit down people's throats" is the "right" way to do it.

it is still an sca event regardless. as such it falls under the rules of the sca.

regards
logan

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Pennsic is really more of a "Coopers" event than an SCA event, although much of the volunteer labor is SCA, not all of it is. Haven't the Tuchux been using Coopers' Lake in August longer than the SCA?

The next biggest war, Estrella, has no where near the out of SCA attendance or "out of period" exposure. It does, however, allowed modern dressed spectators (there are usually a couple dozen).

yep thats me. the old "ram shit down peoples throat" guy. how many of my reigns have you intimate knowledge of? oh wait, thats a rhetorical question. i bet you have one of those aluminum foil hats to keep out the microwaves or does your mindless paranoia just stem from the sca?

if you want to continue your little attacks please feel free to email me. you might also want to get some kind of ammo for those attacks though, it would at least save folks trips to get the popcorn. i mean if there was some substance to them at least. ram shit down peoples throats? really?

feh!
logan

Maeryk wrote:

dukelogan wrote:man, if only we werent the only game in town. if only, in a perfect world full of puppy dogs and rainbows, there were some other group or club that allowed people to do all the stuff we do but only didnt care what people looked like. hmmmm..... see our little club is supposed to be about learning and expierencing some sort of medieval something. if only people were not forced to join our club and we changed what the goal of that club is supposed to be. if only people had a choice.

but clearly they dont and clearly the long time goals of our club, the one that forces people to join, are asking way too much. no wonder people are leaving in droves. well, at least the ones around you apparently are maeryk. ive not had the same luck. ive seen the numbers increase ever so slightly over the years.

look, you seem to hate everything or at least the sca. certainly you have issues with folks that volunteered to do a job and have (oh no ) a different way of interpreting what the goals of the sca are. people that want to see continued improvement and, wait for it, people complying with the rules. if folks were doing that on their own, if the peer pressure were effective enough, if everyone wanted to improve their kits to at least meet the requirements already in place for attending events, then perhaps there would be no need to put into play a policy that enforces those rules on the fighting community. but none of that has worked and its been more than four decades.

look, if a person cant find a way to take the field without his blue jeans or his white sneakers then so be it. wearing a pair of sweatpants seems way easier than finding armour that fits. maybe it isnt. if only there were some other outlet for them to get their "fight on".

i really do wish you some happiness in your life. or, at least, some days that are not filled with so much fear of the world coming to an end or that peers are all overbearing blowhards that just want to put rules on people to keep them down (or whatever goes through your head). but you seem only content to push against the grain, every grain, and offer little constructive objection. arguing to argue isnt the best way to get things to change or stay the same. i know, ive done it many times. it always fails.

logan

Maeryk wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:

Maeryk wrote:Wait, so the Generic Mercs would have to.. umm.. cover the tabards that are covering their armor?

Hope so - it was a funny joke once, not so much now, year after year.


.

Like I said. "I want permission from the highest court to piss on your fun."



And yet again, the single biggest thing that drives people away from the SCA, or keeps them from playing in the first place isn't the appearance, it's not elbow cops under shields.. it's people who think they have a better idea of what fun is than someone else, and who will use their legislative powers to force others to fit that mold.

Whether on a local or societal level, it happens.. and it's, in my experience, the number ONE thing that drives people off. From crusty old Peers who use newbs as punching bags and take pride in injuring folks over and over, to local officers who have to oversee EVERYTHING and tell people what htey can and cannot do, even when it's clearly at odds with the SOCIETY they are participating in.

Yeah, apparently "win crown and ram shit down people's throats" is the "right" way to do it.

D. Sebastian wrote:

dukelogan wrote:besides, if you got inspected and passed and then your silly shield elbow cop fell off you dont get a free ride and must leave combat until it is corrected. its a rule and it has zero to do with safety, but still a rule.

ZING!

Problem with the above is that a thing does not become true through repetition. No matter who repeats it, nor how often. The facts don't change to accommodate opinion.

On what planet are we "the only game in town"? There's bunches of other groups. Admittedly, damn few where simply being the numbest guy in the pack can get you accolades and maybe a crown, if you play your contusions right, but there are groups with lower standards, and higher standards, than we have, already.

And Logan, no matter how much you may want to think I'm kicking just to kick, that's not the case. The case is that I'm looking at a rule that may have worked fine for you IN YOUR KINGDOM, and wondering how well, with thinks like IKA in mind, it will work when applied to entire groups. For chrissake, we couldn't even get a kingdom to go non-contact WATERBEARING without having to dissolve the entire waterbearing wing of the SCA..

the SEM might have the right ideas at heart, but blustery threats of shutting down fighting in an entire kingdom until someone steps up who "agrees with him" is not the right way to "get things changed' in the SCA. It _IS_ however, the right way to drive yet ANOTHER wedge between the rank and file guy who is just here to have fun and maybe do a little work on the side so others can have fun too, and "them", the people who sit far off and make seeming pointless decisions to stroke their egos.

Simply put, if it's a "baby step" then it's one that does NOTHING to improve the "appearance" of the SCA, unless you are patently BLIND to begin with. To anyone who knows what the middle ages looked like, or has even been in the same ROOM with a Dover book, even covered and tape free, we STILL look like a bunch of football helmeted mad-max wannabes.

It's another useless rule, that might give a few people a good chuckle as they remove their pet eyesore and rub their hands with glee at no longer having to see a "joke worn thin", but in reality, it's just gonna piss people off.

course, if it DOES pass, that just means the pink and green landsknecht WILL be on the field, and I'll carry documentation for the colors.

I rarely post anything on this board anymore, because I just can't control my temper, so I stay away.

Maeryk is a very deep thinker, and he's not afraid to call "Shenanigans!" on anyone, including himself.

When I first came to this site I was one of a handful of people who was pushing for the banning of all exposed platic- including shin guards, hockey elbows and the like. People went apeshit. I also wanted to ban hockey gloves and modern shoes from the field, but even I knew that it wasn't the right time for that.

The armour I wear under my Jupon is retarded in the extreme. It's absolutely hideous.

Ban all visible blue plastic is a great start. It's that color that gets your attention. The plastic lammelar looks awesome because you can't tell what it is until you actually touch it.

It's the color that's the problem- that electric blue.

Man, I don't see people leaving in droves in my area.

Don't find every peer trying to hurt new fighters, or every officer holding new people down, or going out to ruin peoples fun.

In fact, in my area, we have knights taking time during events to train new fighters rather then enter the tournament. Officers taking new people under their wing as deputies so they can learn the job, and even some (GASP!) silly fun.

And yet, they still work on helping folks improve appearance, teaching, coaching and helping.



Boy, maybe it's just the people you hang out with.



.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Man, I don't see people leaving in droves in my area.

Don't find every peer trying to hurt new fighters, or every officer holding new people down, or going out to ruin peoples fun.

In fact, in my area, we have knights taking time during events to train new fighters rather then enter the tournament. Officers taking new people under their wing as deputies so they can learn the job, and even some (GASP!) silly fun.

And yet, they still work on helping folks improve appearance, teaching, coaching and helping.



Boy, maybe it's just the people you hang out with.



.

How long have you been doing this?

Nowhere did I say everyone is like that. Or even most folks. But the few who are, do an INORDINATE amount of damage for their per capita quantities.

Pennsic 21 was my third event.. Cave and a Settmour war practice being the first two, in that order.. (Saw fighting at Cave, authorized at Settmour War Practice, fought at Pennsic, in the space of about six months or so, I think?)

I've been around a while, and watching a while. I've been involved in bringing in a LOT of new folks over the years, hell, even involved in starting Youth Fighting for the East. I've seen households rise and then implode, others rise and become feared forces on the field. I've seen Crowns be the true definition of Victorian Chivalry, and others act the right ass on occasion.

The only thing about "the" SCA is it's so hard to put the "THE" on there, because it's many things to many people.. _intentionally_ so. It was designed and built that way.

dukelogan wrote:not clear on what you are asking brother.

regards
logan

Balin50 wrote:How many people in atlantia after 8 years are still at the minimum level required to fight?

Balin

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Don't find every peer trying to hurt new fighters, or every officer holding new people down, or going out to ruin peoples fun.

I don't think anyone (well, I could think of someone 'round here who would, but...) has said anything about EVERY peer.

But how many people doing that does it take to drive off new folks, and even folks who have been in a long time?

Maeryk wrote:Yeah, apparently "win crown and ram shit down people's throats" is the "right" way to do it.

Seems to me to be a pretty Medieval attitude.

I'm all for steps that can take us closer to the standard attempt.
I think the rule is a good one and enforcement should be pretty stright forward.
I also think a 'grace period' for new fighters is also a good idea, say 6 months from authorization... just a thought but all in all I dont see any hinderence to new fighters with the way this rule is worded.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Don't find every peer trying to hurt new fighters, or every officer holding new people down, or going out to ruin peoples fun.

In my barony for the most part they'll go out of their way to hit you where you have armor, if they know your a newer fighter, and because of that standard they set I try to do the same when fighting guys in crappy armor.

dukelogan wrote:i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

Again that is my point. I am OK with the crowns making additional laws to improve the appearance of their kingdom as it suits them to do so. I am glad that you took the initiative to improve upon your kingdom when it was your turn to do it.

No additional society level legislation was required for you to do it.

I do think that if some noob walks up and says "wow this is awesome" and wants to stick around but is wearing blue jeans and tennis shoes, throwing a tabard on the guy so he can feel like a part of the event is conforming to the requirements of an attempt to blend in so to speak. That's what the rule is for. Make an attempt to blend in and not be a sore thumb sticking out. A few modern bits sticking out here and there is going to happen now and then but that is ok. It's not a contest exactly but if we were all forced to meet the highest standards for appearance there would be no reason for us to give kudos (and sometimes awards) for authenticity. Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

Like Chris Rock says, you don't get an awared for doing what is expected of you.

"Man I aint never been to jail"
"Man you aren't supposed to go to jail!"

"Man I take care of my kids"
"Man you are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a medal?"