The Armour Archive

I have personally used a steel breast and backplate, and I have used a plastic breast and back plate. I was hit in the back once while wearing the plastic, and I can say without a doubt, I knew when I had been hit. Infact I knew for about an hour or so... In my opinion, steel is much safer.
thats just my personal view on the whole situation.

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we will only be what we strive to become

Giles, great name wonder were that came from??!!!!!!!

Seriously, glad to see you tracked down the AA. I will be working at Toms shop all weekend so maybe we will see you there shop monkey!

GeneP

: ) thats me

DVA

Call me at (336)227-6044 and we can discuss the changes that I believe will improve your product.

Regards, Tom

A generous offer that I'll be delighted to accept!

I agree that this seems to be a topic only put forward by DVA to try to gain acceptance for his product.

Is steel safer than plastic? Would you wear a plastic helmet?

Hell no.

Steel may dent under sufficient force, but that force is *absorbed* in the act of denting the steel. OTOH, plastic deforms, transfers that force to your body underneath, and bounces back like nothing happened. Except for that bruise, of course.

Now Dietrich, why don't you just say that you make cheap armor out of cheap barrels that is so God-awful ugly that it must be hidden from view?

In fact, I think it would be proper for you to display your wares at Pennsic hidden underneath a tunic. Don't provide an armor bag, just a big, cheap t-tunic.

I'd also place a UL-type warning label on the front of your breastplates that reads: "WARNING: CHEEZE HAZARD. Proper use of this product requires that this material is not exposed to sunlight. Ever. Covering this product with a tunic or other acceptable disguising medium is required for the well-being of the SCA. Persons found in violation of this guideline will be subjected to righteous indignation, laughter, derision, ridicule, contempt and spontaneous combustion."

Trevor,

I don't make the armor for your pleasure nor do I claim it is beautiful. I personally put form after function and enjoy seeing functional designs in the field. You disagree. If you think that the discussion of the safety is unimportant, that's fine. I don't think that heaving insults at me makes much difference other than to solidify my own opinion of intolerant people.

Have a nice day [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

Q: Is steel safer than plastic?

A: Yes. I won't hit you as hard if you're wearing steel.

And seeing your discourse does nothing but solidify my opinion of inauthentic people who care nothing of spoiling the medieval atmosphere that most of us joined the SCA to experience.

So, as long as you keep your stuff covered, you can play. That's hardly intolerant.

OTOH, I don't see that you are making any effort to add to the medieval atmosphere that I'm trying to create and enjoy.

Indeed, you seem to take perverse pleasure in flaunting your indifference.

As to the warning label; this is VERY similar to the warning that I give people that I make plastic armor for. I also tell them that if I ever see the armor uncovered on the field, they gotta give it back; because they are not responsible enough to use it.

You play your game, and I'll play my game. But, I'll bet that I enhance yours more than you enhance mine.

[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-14-2003).]

greetings...
DVA, have you considered offering a line of “pre-coveredâ€

Trevor,

Although my priority is effectiveness rather than appearance please don't think that I'm indifferent to the visuals. If I lacked this consideration would I have offered 1/2 price tabards to Atlantian customers in supoort of their standards upgrade? I never said plastic was pretty and I'm not fighting to have unexposed plastic on the list field. I AM eager to address allegations of that HDPE plastic is in some way unsafe, despite the many people who are more interested in talking about how plastic should be banned for visual reasons.

I'm also talking to Tom about possible upgrades to enhance the hideability/coverability factors.

And yes, I take pleasure at flaunting my indifference.... of your antagonism and insults.

Flauntingly,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com


Bela: Yup. Though about it. Considering making a kit to include plates/adhesive/cloth for COP or Churberg13

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Trevor:
<B>And seeing your discourse does nothing but solidify my opinion of inauthentic people who care nothing of spoiling the medieval atmosphere that most of us joined the SCA to experience.

So, as long as you keep your stuff covered, you can play. That's hardly intolerant.

OTOH, I don't see that you are making any effort to add to the medieval atmosphere that I'm trying to create and enjoy.

Indeed, you seem to take perverse pleasure in flaunting your indifference.

As to the warning label; this is VERY similar to the warning that I give people that I make plastic armor for. I also tell them that if I ever see the armor uncovered on the field, they gotta give it back; because they are not responsible enough to use it.

You play your game, and I'll play my game. But, I'll bet that I enhance yours more than you enhance mine.

[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-14-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think your still missing the point made by the masses here....

no one cares if its safe, thats a moot point when you take into consideration that it has no place in midieval re-creation....

what your asking is a lot like looking at everyone here and saying " riot gear with some modifications to meet the letter of the rules is safe for sca combat" and everyone is answering back " why the hell would you want to wear riot gear to a middle ages tourney?" its in essence the same thing.................

I could personally give a damn if plastic could endure a nuclear blast and even if it could its not an excuse to wear it on the field...

your asking if a material which isnt included in the context of what we are here for is equal to a material that is... the resounding answer is no.

give it up already..

Sam thinks that plastic has no place in the SCA. Fine for Sam. I do not "miss the point made by the masses". I just disagree. No amount of convention wisdom, abusive language, unsubstantiated horror stories or dismissive BS is going to change my mind. You can bet that general intolerance to plastic as an armoring material will fall on barren ground too.

"Resoundingly"
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dark Victory Armory:
<B>No amount of convention wisdom, abusive language, unsubstantiated horror stories or dismissive BS is going to change my mind. You can bet that general intolerance to plastic as an armoring material will fall on barren ground too.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then, why did you bother posting this thread at all? You don't seem to be genuinely interested in other's opinons or preferences unless they substantiate your preconceived notions.

The thing that disturbs me, and I assume that disturbs others as well, is that while many are trying to increase the level of authenticity in the SCA, you are actively decreasing it.

It is easy enough for new folks to make their own barrel armor with a jig saw and propane torch without your help. I did that myself for my first armor (and then covered it with leather).

What I'd personally like to see is people who have been in the SCA for a long time-and should know better- to spend their time teaching the new folks how to do their stuff better and more authentically. Instead, we see you serving as yet another bad example of lowering our standards because it is lighter-quicker-easier-cheaper to get on the field when that is not necessarily the case.

What this lowering of standards does is drive off the best examples of historical accuracy from the SCA.

Why? Because there are other venues that we can spend our THOUSANDS of dollars at in order to have historical experiences without having it spoiled by some tennis-shoe wearing, katana-weilding, kilt-clad scotsman running around in cheap, black barrel armor.

What I would like to see you do is use your talents to increase the number of people on the field in decent-looking kits, rather than increase the number of people of people on the field in black plastic barrels.

Is it too much to ask for you to modify your designs so that the armor can be worn exposed without creating a medieval short-circuit? Because, despite your best intentions, your customers will wear your stuff exposed. Indeed, things like arms, legs and gauntlets often can't or won't be covered.

And while some people have a problem with *any* plastic being used, I don't. As long as the end result looks like medieval armor, it's fine because it adds to, rather than detracts from, my medieval experience.

I do not appreciate a merchant making a profit at the expense of my medieval experience-get it?



[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-16-2003).]

Let's get the quote right Trevor. I said that I'd not be swayed by tactics 1,2,3,4 if the point was that plastic has no place in the SCA.

You've asked. I'm actively discussing it with Tom. Maybe he'll sway me.

If you were to ask chef de chambre he'd say that I was inspiring others to do better. An odd perspective and probably meant as a cut, but still an interesting point.

My original question was not if plastic was more correct than steel, it was about safety. The fashion issues have been raised by others. So don't accuse me of serving myself that topic, just because I'm willing to talk about it now.

Fashionably,
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

A lot of people have given evidence to that steel does in fact protect better. Some have cited research and others personal experience.
I like others have never said that plastic is not good enough protection or that it was un-safe. Only that is does not protect as well as steel.
My personal experience with both materials is that steel protects better than plastic. Plastic protects well enough but steel is better. I've worn just about every type of armour material on the field. Steel may dent and rust and it may be heavy but it flat our stops more of the force of the blow than anything. Especially if that steel is shaped to fit the body.
I'm not the only one who has said that but you ignor or side step us to bitch in a grandstanding fashion about the people who are getting off target.
I do hate when people set themselves up to be the martyr.

[This message has been edited by Duncan (edited 03-17-2003).]

By my quick count, thirty-one posts in this thread were by people who specifically stated that steel was more more safe than plastic either by engineering analysis or personal experience. Less than twenty posts were arguments against plastic based only on appearence or authenticity.

Did anyone else's count come out differently?

Anyone else want to count how many people other 'n Dietrick posted their analysis or experiences that plastic is as safe as steel? My guess is less than five, but I really don't feel like parsing through this long thread again...

Jareth,

The number of people stating opinions is less important than what they say. Lemmings all move in the same direction too. Does that make them genius?

Duncan,

Evidence has been given in support steel as well as plastic. They have different attributes and present different safety benefits. I'm sorry that you think that I'm setting myself up as a martyr. I don't feel like a martyr, but I do get frustrated when the topic gets lost in a fashion agenda. I'm willing to study what I don't know the answer to and fight when people are wrong. There's no grandstanding in that.

So you think that plastic is acceptably safe? Cool. Maybe I set too high a standard by asking if steel is safer than plastic...... Perhaps that's too far for people to jump.

Here's a new question: Is HDPE plastic (I don't give a damn about Kydex or ABS) a reasonable/safe/non historical material for making armor?

Regards,
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

----but I do get frustrated when the topic gets lost in a fashion agenda.-----

I get frustrated when people pretend that trying to be authentic in the SCA has ANYTHING to do with fashion!

The choice to look like a giant black lobster or to look like an actual medieval person is not a FASHION choice! it is the choice to play in the SCA or to hang on to the SCA and play some other game.

a Fashion coice would be to wear decent 12th century armour or 14th century armour.

unfortunate remarks aside, I think that articulated steel kness are superior because they will provide some lateral support, while plastic will not. My wife dislocated her knee (playing vollyball, not in fighting) But if she had been wearing her *steel* leg armour, it would have prevented her knee from bending sideways, and protected her knee. Plastic leg armour does nothing toward this.

I have been following this thread, and thus far it seems to be general agreement that plastic requires more padding because it flexes more, and that it provides less protection for knees (of course, not Everybody agrees, I wrote General agreement) this seems to point that plastic may not be particularly less save, but is inferior for a material for armour.

Brian Romine
St. Eligius Armoury
http://members.socket.net/~bromine/

Dietrick wrote:

The number of people stating opinions is less important than what they say. Lemmings all move in the same direction too. Does that make them genius?

...Implying that some of the people who commented may have just been mindlessly following popular opinion.

To which I reply:

*SARCASM*
Gosh. That observation is certain to improve everyone here's opinion of you. I mean, many people were saying that you have a tendency to ignore any arguments that conflict with your personal desires. Now we all realize that you were just filtering out those lemmings whose agreed with public opinion! After all, if they weren't bound by their preconceptions, they would have come to the same conclusions that you did, no matter what their engineering analysis or personal experience said!
*/SARCASM*

Dietrick also wrote:
Is HDPE plastic (I don't give a damn about Kydex or ABS) a reasonable/safe/non historical material for making armor?

To which I reply:
Well, I haven't worked with HDPE, but I have worked with both Kydex and ABS. Both of those materials can be made into reasonably safe, non-historical armor suitable for stick fighting in organizations whose goals and requirements do not include a historical appearence. Not as safe as steel, of course, but almost definitely more safe than fighting naked.

Judging from the materials analysis provided, I would hypothesize that HDPE would behave similarly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>To which I reply:
Well, I haven't worked with HDPE, but I have worked with both Kydex and ABS. Both of those materials can be made into reasonably safe, non-historical armor suitable for stick fighting in organizations whose goals and requirements do not include a historical appearence. Not as safe as steel, of course, but almost definitely more safe than fighting naked.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. My salle has actually looked at what DVA offers in order to allow for sparring with wasters, cane, and grand baton. Although we have gear that will shrug any blow we can put on it, said gear is *too* protective, and would encourage bad habits if used for sparring. And as we train largely unarmored and incorporate body weapons, the idea of catching a steel half gaunt to the face is pretty unappetizing. Although the design itself did not fit our requirements, it has very high potential as a training tool.

Dieterick,

I will not get involved in the rest of the discussion, but was wondering:

Have you ever considered offering armour with steel cops instead of plastic ones? Like, from Cet over at Rough from the Hammer? I know RFTH gives great bulk rates, and if you do a steel cop in pointed floating articulation on a plastic cuisse/greave and vambrace/rerebrace that would make it super easy to get it covered for a great look. Prices used to start at 13$ (15 for stainless) for a pair of cops.

I think it would make a great option on your product line, and one that you may be able to offer at a great price, too.

Best Regards

Sebastian

[This message has been edited by Vallconnan (edited 03-18-2003).]

POD ROFLAMO

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

You guys have ten minutes to wrap this up, because I am about to lock this thread. We all know that DVA gear is hideously ugly, but we shouldn't be mean to Dieterick.
-Vitus

It's funny you mention metal joints. A customer sent me a set of the ebay ersonalhalo elbows and knees and asked me to fill them in with plastic bits. Now this was the first time that anyone ever asked for this, so I was intrigued. I went down to the shop and took a look. I found that my stock parts fit REALLY WELL on the steel. Looked pretty cool too. I think that there will be a future in this as I could make a kit specifically made to work with their gear. I'm hoping to get some matching brass rivets (or their source of supply) so that I can make it look decent (or less indecent, depending upon your perspective).

Thanks for the nice, nice Vitus. But after the bitching out that Chef got from WF, I feel lucky!

Regards,
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

Ahh Dietrick your not a bad guy.. just misguided....