The Armour Archive

Sorry I angered you bro, but I'm not looking for opinions unless we can back them up with facts. I didn't mean to suggest that you were an idiot, and I probably came off as harsh. What I am asking for is a nuts and bolts look at the problem. If you state your opinion, then some people are going to read it and misinterpret that for a statement of fact and run with that. My take on your opinion was that it wasn't backed. Still, you've got my apology, as I didn't mean to be an ass or imply anything about your smarts.

Sincerely,
Ld. Dieterick von Bastard
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dagonet:
<B>Dagonet wrote;
I don't know anything about the science, but in practical applications, plastic knees are some what less safe than metal. This point, which others have made before, is that plastic knees are simply not substantial enough to absorb some low shots. I believe the shots in question are those from great weapons, where the force generated can be significantly greater than the force from a single hand sword. The forgiving and elastic nature of plastic does not always do enough to protect the knee in those situations. The danger is amplified when the person wielding the great weapon doesn't really have control of the weapon and proceeds to knock the hell out of the knee. The fact that the leg is often planted firmly to the ground, preventing flex, and that the plastic bends, transfers the force into the joint, instead of distribuiting it through the armor. The weight and rigidity of steel does a better job of absorbing significant shots.
One cent...two cents,

Dagonet

Dark Victory Armory wrote;
Dagonet doesn't know anything about science but has opinions that he doesn't support with facts. That's nice.

Dagonet writes;

No need to be a dick bro. If you find my comments lacking of worth due to their lack of formula pulled from the net, simply ignore them. Your comment does absolutely nothing to support your arguement. The only thing it does do is to say that you hold me to be an iddiot. If that is your opinion fine, keep it to yourself unless it is relevant to the situation at hand. If you need filler for your posts, try looking on some more web pages for knowledge to use.

Dagonet</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well so much for my patience on this subject.

The original question is "Is steel safer than plastic?"
My answer is yes. My example is spring steel. That is steel. That is what you are asking. Steel is safer. Period. This was the question. That is the answer.
Your response is totally invalid when you are asking the simple question of is steel safer than plastic.
<i>"Originally posted by Winterfell:
{Snip }I would be safer wearing steel (specifically spring steel) armour from Jeff Hedgecock than a set of any plastic armour, against nearly all historical weapons. Period. Bar none.
DVA - Chuckle. Yes Spring Steel is superb, but you are in a whole different world when using that as your basis for comparison.
{Snip}"</i> No I am not in a whole different world, I am conforming to your specifications when you asked a simple question.
You did not originally ask if steel is cheaper than plastic, nor is steel lighter than plastic, nor does steel dent under a hammer but not plastic? These questions evolved as your defence for plastic.
As someone else pointed out on this topic it appears that you are looking for validation to post on your website or to tell your customers. I agree.
I would not ever in my life be more safe in plastic armour than in steel. It is gapped. It is weak. It will not ever hold up to real medieval weapons.
I read through your website. I am not impressed. I am not impressed because you cut your armour out of barrels. I am not impressed because you spend a great deal of time trying to prove your plastic barrels are better than the many armourers who are working real hard to at least try to follow historic styles. I have seen some really wicked plastic armour. This does not fall into that category. Why not simply state:
"I make cheap armour out of cheap barrels, so that you can get onto the field cheaply."
It is called truth in advertising.




------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com/coeurdeleon/index.html

Enough of lurking, into the fray...
I disagree with some of your comments Flonzy, specifically:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by flonzy:
<B> Again a baseball bat is unfair. Unlike rattan were the energy is along the length of the stick because the weight is towards the bottom a bat is shaped top heavy to transmit the energy to the top of the bat, just like a hammer. Cut the knob off the bottom of the bat and strike with the tin end and you will not get much energy. Rattan is all that matters and steel stops it as good or better than plastic depending on armor quality.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steel dents just fine with a rattan stick. So does plastic; it just bounces back more. You're problem with it being a ball pein hammer or a baseball bat is irrelevent. Obviously rattan can still transmit force to the target, or we wouldn't even need armor.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by flonzy:
<B>
"As for the knee injury studies again those people have problems because they constantly are fat or being elderly weakens the joints of weight lifter put hundreds of pounds on their knees and do the lifting multiple times a week, not the same as adding 20 to 60 pounds to you on the weekend for a few hours and sitting between rounds. These people are having constant added weight we have temp added weight. The study on weight lifters didn’t talk about doing the exercise wrong either as far as I read, and that is the one most do wrong thus causing knee injuries.

BTW I already said the weight will be there when you strap on the legs but I said if you strap them right you balance the weight and relieve pressure from the knee.

Flonzy
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I disagree. Weight over your knees makes a big difference. I have customers who are big, big boys; 6'6" and 360+lbs, and the weight difference between steel and plastic armor to them is very substantial, in the order of 50-60 lbs. I also have a few older customers who were hot fighters in their day, able to come out of retirement as fighters because of the lighter weight of the kit. Talk to any of the older SCA dukes out there, ask them what shape their knees are in; they generally don't want any more weight on them than they can help.

------------------
Dalewyn
Dalewyn@dbis.ns.ca
www.AlchemyArmory.com

[This message has been edited by Dalewyn (edited 03-01-2003).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalewyn:
<B>Enough of lurking, into the fray...
I disagree with some of your comments Flonzy, specifically:

Again, I disagree. Weight over your knees makes a big difference. I have customers who are big, big boys; 6'6" and 360+lbs, and the weight difference between steel and plastic armor to them is very substantial, in the order of 50-60 lbs. I also have a few older customers who were hot fighters in their day, able to come out of retirement as fighters because of the lighter weight of the kit. Talk to any of the older SCA dukes out there, ask them what shape their knees are in; they generally don't want any more weight on them than they can help.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dalewyn

I have never disagreed that rattan can dent metal armor my point is a hammer and a bat are not the same as rattan. DV told Joaquin to keep steel out of it because we don't fight with steel in the SCA, well we don't use bats or metal hammers either.

I have never seen quality armor dent. I have seen kits used by every weekend fighters that are 10 or more years old that have never scene a dent. As they say you get what you pay for.

As to the knee issue I AGAIN point out that I know the weight is there BUT if you don't have knee problems the extra weight worn for a few hours 4 times a month will not cause the knee problems like the studies DV mentioned as long as the weight is distributed correctly. If you have knee problems already then that is not the metal armors fault. I agree plastic can help those people out. I disagree that short spans of extra weight will blow my knees out. I don’t wear my armor 24 7 and it doesn’t weight 500 pounds like the weight lifers are working with nor do I wear it as much as they lift. Lets stop with the apples and oranges here. None of those studies are close to are environment and the hammer or bat test is not rattan. IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH?

I have nothing against plastic but these ideas and studies just don’t apply do to different situations and circumstances.


Flonzy

I'm glad I don't have you writing marketing script for me Winterfell...

I'm sorry that you've lost patience and that you think that you think my response is "totally invalid". I do not believe that this should preclude your ability to look at the facts. I'm also sorry that your closed view prevents a reasonable discussion of the details.

Although I understand your wish for authenticity, this desire doesn't change materials or physics. If you need to cheat the argument by using Spring Steel as an example, that tells an interesting story.

Best of Luck,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winterfell:
<B>Well so much for my patience on this subject.

The original question is "Is steel safer than plastic?"
My answer is yes. My example is spring steel</B>. That is steel. That is what you are asking. Steel is safer. Period. This was the question. That is the answer.
Your response is totally invalid when you are asking the simple question of is steel safer than plastic.
<I>"Originally posted by Winterfell:
{Snip }I would be safer wearing steel (specifically spring steel) armour from Jeff Hedgecock than a set of any plastic armour, against nearly all historical weapons. Period. Bar none.
DVA - Chuckle. Yes Spring Steel is superb, but you are in a whole different world when using that as your basis for comparison.
{Snip}"</I> No I am not in a whole different world, I am conforming to your specifications when you asked a simple question.
You did not originally ask if steel is cheaper than plastic, nor is steel lighter than plastic, nor does steel dent under a hammer but not plastic? These questions evolved as your defence for plastic.
As someone else pointed out on this topic it appears that you are looking for validation to post on your website or to tell your customers. I agree.
I would not ever in my life be more safe in plastic armour than in steel. It is gapped. It is weak. It will not ever hold up to real medieval weapons.
I read through your website. I am not impressed. I am not impressed because you cut your armour out of barrels. I am not impressed because you spend a great deal of time trying to prove your plastic barrels are better than the many armourers who are working real hard to at least try to follow historic styles. I have seen some really wicked plastic armour. This does not fall into that category. Why not simply state:
"I make cheap armour out of cheap barrels, so that you can get onto the field cheaply."
It is called truth in advertising.


</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am with Winterfell on this one. Even if I just wore basic armor from Illusion or ArmorWorks, a mild steel kit would provide more protection against real weapons than plastic.

In an SCA context, DV has altered his premise (while still claiming it is apples to apples) to include extra padding under the plastic to compensate for what he recognizes is a weakness in the use of plastic barrels for protection. Namely, that the material is flexible.

Fine. But the amount of padding you'd have to put on the knee to make it as safe from a great weapon as if you wore steel (even mild) will be enough that it is near impossible to bend your joint!

Want to cut weight? Fine. But don't insult our intelligence by claiming that plastic "armor" is safer than steel. Just say it meets the SCA requirements for safety. Nobody can argue with that.

Looking at Alchemy Armoury's website was fun. I was especially pleased to see a plastic CoP kit. Hidden, light weight, and only a little more expensive than a steel one from Master Geoffrey. The other armor was on a par in price with the lower end decent steel armor out there. And I have to say that it is pleasant to see gear that is formed to look like armor, even if it is plastic.

Dieterick, please just give it up. Like it or not, your only argument for increased safety with plastic armor is weight. For weight bearing on the knees, there is an added strain from the steel. Nobody has disputed this. However, the actual protective characteristic of the armor in this area comes from its rigidity. The flexing of the knee cop when it is hit will not protect as well as a steel cop. And steel that is articulated with real rivets will be rigid from the side all the way up the leg. "Skillful articulation" with a bit of string is not going to be rigid in any direction.

For someone who wants to cut the weight and doesn't care about offending the eyes of those of us who actually try to make the SCA what it claims to be, I still strongly suggest steel on the knees. If the rest of the kit is plastic, a set of articulated steel knees will only add 3 or 4 pounds, at most.

Still, the rigidity of the steel is what I want in armor. Everyone makes a choice about the level of protection he wants. I want the safest I can get and I choose to carry the extra weight because I want to be safer. And I couldn't feel like a "knight in shining armor" with plastic barrels tied to me with parachute cord.

-Patrick

Don't think that points made here have fallen on deaf ears. Most particularly I've been thinking about the extra padding vs. mobility tradeoff. If extra padding is needed, and I believe that it is for HDPE, then the armor will be moved away from the body. In many places this isn't important, but one area that I've been reconsidering is the armholes on a breastplate. If the breastplate is moved farther away from the chest then the scoops for the arm holes would need to be deeper and modifications would need to be made to the pauldrons to make a true "fan" shape that is the classic design in order to cover these now open areas. Despite appearances that I'm just a rabid pro-plastic advocate defending my work, I'm actually learning from this discussion and will take this information down to my shop.

Still I disagree with a few of your points

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick:
<B>a mild steel kit would provide more protection against real weapons than plastic.
</B>

Isn't this what we are still talking about? If you think that all the topics are dealt with then fine. I'm not done.

<B>
In an SCA context, DV has altered his premise (while still claiming it is apples to apples) to include extra padding under the plastic to compensate for what he recognizes is a weakness in the use of plastic barrels for protection. Namely, that the material is flexible.

</B>
I don't think I've altered my premise.... I just don't think we've finished looking at all the details that make up the effective structure strength. Moreover thy hypothesis that that steel knees ARE safer than plastic knees, may be correct. But it hasn't been proven by objective analysis.
<B>

Want to cut weight? Fine. But don't insult our intelligence by claiming that plastic "armor" is safer than steel. Just say it meets the SCA requirements for safety. Nobody can argue with that.
</B>
People regularly make allegations that plastic is "unsafe" and "foolhardy". The premise of this thread is to see if steel is safer than plastic, although others have sought to turn that around. I think that plastic IS as safe or safer, than steel, but that remains unproven, just as Steel being as safe or safer than plastic.

<B>
...And I have to say that it is pleasant to see gear that is formed to look like armor, even if it is plastic.
</B>
The result of this discussion may change the way we make our gear. I've been thinking about advancing the designs both for function (primary) and form (secondary).
<B>

... only argument for increased safety with plastic armor is weight. ...Nobody has disputed this. However, the actual protective characteristic of the armor in this area comes from its rigidity. The flexing of the knee cop when it is hit will not protect as well as a steel cop. And steel that is articulated with real rivets will be rigid from the side all the way up the leg. "Skillful articulation" with a bit of string is not going to be rigid in any direction.

</B>
I think that a real world problem as complex as impact upon a shaped structure comes down to a hell of a lot more that rigidity! Consider the potential benefit of slowing down impact over time. How about the "bounce" factor difference between steel and HDPE (hitting a wall of superballs vs. hitting a wall of concrete)? Or that static stress resistance is different from impact resistance? Or that when you are looking at a curved structure of different thickness and materials that protection characteristics will change differently.

If you think that this debate is closed, there's nothing I can do to compel you to continue. I'll keep at the problem, thanks.

Sincerely,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

-Patrick[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dv,

it was me that used the term "foolhardy" in regards to plastic knee armor, nothing else. by using only a snip of my statement you misrepresent its meaning. like when a movie critic says "it is incredible and astounding that this movie was even made, what crap!!" and the publicists put "...incredible!!" "...astounding!!" in their ads.

how about this (i know this is a silly example but im willing to offer it), are you willing to wear your plastic armor on your knee while i wear my 14ga steel armor over my knee while we exchange blow by blow? do you believe that your plastic will protect you as well as my steel? honestly?

regards
logan


edit for clarity and a misplaced period that was supposed to be a comma

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 03-03-2003).]

But it hasn't been proven by objective analysis.
________________

I remember reading once that it had been proven by objective analysis that bumblebees can't fly. The wings are just too small to support the body in the air. Still, I see them every summer around our flowers...

Formulas and theories only take you so far. How about a very subjective analysis? Duke Logan has offered a very effective way of determining the safety of a plastic knee as compared to steel. Wanna take him up on it? I'm sure the rest of us would consider this very educational, too.

Sometimes, we just need to be subjective, especially when there does not seem to be an agreed-upon set of standards for an objective analysis. If you were to get the folks following this thread to agree to a certain amount of flex as being acceptable, but the maximum that they feel would be safe, then have a machine capable of simulating SCA sword blows with progressive force levels, based on the calibration level of the average fighter and up to the levels deisplayed by some of the heavy-cruiser dukes out there, it would be possible to demonstrate the flexibility of your gear in a laboratory simulation of real-world applications. There should also be some way of measuring the force delivered to the simulated knee inside the armor being tested.

Until you have a simulator like that, which plastic and steel lovers both can agree is acceptable for simulating the blows in the SCA, I don't think you can get an objective analysis. All you can get is the benefit of other fighters' EXPERIENCE. Because, face it, when you get into the real world, it isn't formulas and manuafacturers' specs that protect or fail to protect you. It is only the stuff strapped (or tied) to the parts of your body that some mouth-breathing, pipe-hitting thug is beating with a club that will either keep you able to walk or fail to do so. It is your choice, but you can never really discount the value or validity of experience in this game.

-Patrick

A couple of points:

Winterfell, et. al.: While you are quite right that the original question, "Is steel safer than plastic? " can only be answered no, that's not the real question here. Dieterick asked too broad a question. The real question is: "For SCA combat purposes, with all else (money, quality of construction, etc.) being equal, is steel safer than plastic? In all or just some applications?" That's the question we've been discussing, even if it's never been explicitly stated.

On rigidity: Dieterick is quite right, additional padding (and no, it wouldn't take 3x as much) would help eliminate the extra flexion in a plastic breastplate. I may even be willing to concede that for the torso, in the limited context of SCA combat, plastic is as safe as steel (although I would still never wear it, for other reasons).

However, as has been pointed out, when you talk about limb defenses, there's a limit to how much padding you can fit under the armor. In this case, it's quite likely that the extra flexion will be dangerous.

Note that this is not unique to plastic. Much has been made of spring steel here. I have recently handled a spring steel elbow cop that, in my opinion, was more dangerous than any plastic elbow I've seen. It was made based on a normal pattern for an elbow cop - deeply formed middle, with almost flat sides. Since spring steel is so much more flexible (hence the name "spring") than mild, I was able to squeeze the ends of the cop almost completely close with one hand. This means that a blow the point of the elbow would be completely protected, while a blow to the side might injure the wearer. A better design would elminate this problem. I am just mentioning this to demonstrate that flexion really is a problem, regardless of whether it's plastic or not.

On obkective analysis and bumblebees: The bumblebee "proof" (as well as a similair "proof" that kangaroo can't hop) doesn't really apply here. The problem with that proof wasn't that the analysis was done incorrectly, but because at the time if the analysis, some science hadn't been discovered yet. A bumble-bee with bird wings of that size wouldn't be able to fly. Likewise, a bird-sized bubmble bee wouldn't be able to fly. Using the understanding of aerodynamics that's involved in bird flight doesn't work for bumble-bees. It's only recently that we've finally understood how insects can manage to fly, using air vortices that we couldn't model before computers.

On the other hand, the physics of flexion and impacts is well understood, and there are unlikely to be any breakthroughs that materially alter this understanding.

However, we are, in fact, using only crude approximations to try to derive some meaningful answers. A full analysis of the physics of an SCA rattan impact would invovle years of work and millions of dollars - there are thousands of varibales, all of which would have to be analyzed. This is the sort of thing modern supercomputers are just starting to be able to do.

Nonetheless, engineers have been using crude approximations like these for years, and have successfully built some prtty amazing things.

------------------
Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak
http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/armor/

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> originally by DVA and His Grace Logan
<B>
DVA: Does putting greater weight on the legs pose a greater danger of exertion based damage?


>>>>>>>>LOGAN plastic knees are, in my opinion, foolhardy at best. ask any fighter that has had major knee injury and you will find that they want weight around their knees to absorb any impact from unintentionally thrown blows (ie low blows). plastic offer no weight disbursement protection to a join that only really bends one way and has a lot of weight anchoring it. {snip elbows aren't a bit deal}</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your grace, I believe in this quote you stated your opinion that knees were AT BEST foolhardy. This is CLEARLY an indictment of their safety and CLEARLY taken in context.

I appreciate your offer to play on the field. Naturally you'll stomp me like the impudent egg that I am, but I'm also quite confident that my knees will be just fine, thanks. Moreover you are a talented fighter and I'm just fine. We could ignore the rules and shoot off-target shots, like knees. Hey, I'm game.... we can be stupid together! Long as I get to hit back.

Regards,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dukelogan:
<B>dv,

it was me that used the term "foolhardy" in regards to plastic knee armor, nothing else. by using only a snip of my statement you misrepresent its meaning. like when a movie critic says "it is incredible and astounding that this movie was even made, what crap!!" and the publicists put "...incredible!!" "...astounding!!" in their ads.

how about this (i know this is a silly example but im willing to offer it), are you willing to wear your plastic armor on your knee while i wear my 14ga steel armor over my knee while we exchange blow by blow? do you believe that your plastic will protect you as well as my steel? honestly?

regards
logan


edit for clarity and a misplaced period that was supposed to be a comma

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 03-03-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dva,
but your quote was:

People regularly make allegations that plastic is "unsafe" and "foolhardy".

like i said, i used the term foolhardy in reference to plastic knees and not, as your post credits me, regarding plastic alone. so it was not an accurate representation.

as far as your comments regarding my proposition goes, you pick the fighter and we can both stand there and let him hit our knees until one of us is injured. we can do this off site if you want. i simply contend that your plastic knees will not hold up to the test and i am sure that my steel knees will due to their weight and strength. it has nothing to do with my skill as a fighter or yours and it wasnt a blow for blow fight but a blow for blow test against that particular piece of armor. sorry if that was the impression you got.

and i am also sorry that you think defending your position on this topic is stupid. i would rather have hoped that you felt as strongly in action about your product as you do in word. i think that plastic knees are foolhardy at best and i further offer that i do not think they offer any real protection for the knees. i am willing to put my metal knees to the test anytime. i would hope that you would as well.

i will provide the ride and the beer in my camp afterwards if you want. 8^)

regards
logan

edit was for clarity

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 03-03-2003).]

I currently wear a pair of 5 lame knees from Illusion Armor. The articulation is almost perfect... completely rigid armor that moves perfectly with the knee.

No plastic armor will be safer for my knee joints than that armor.


In addition, I can only conclude that steel is safer than plastic for most applications to armor.

Steel has the ability to be deformed plastically, elastically, and combinations of both that make it ideal for armor: I'm talking about being able to make articulated armor that withstands impact without deformation or deflection.

I won't repeat myself on the heat factor.

From now on His Grace owns the term "foolhardy" and anyone making reference to it will please quote him completely! [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Getting whacked until one of us gets injured doesn't sound like a wonderful idea. This isn't because I don't have confidence in the gear it just means that I think that knees are off target for a reason. Even so, I'll be more than happy to do a whack test with you, and I'm sure we can do it on site, as this wouldn't be combat, it'd be an experiment. But let's not target injury as our objective.

No I didn't say it's stupid to defend my position... Who's misquoting who, buddy. I was saying that I'd be willing to be stupid and play whack the knee with you. "Exchange blow by blow" sounds like a stand up knee knockin' contest to me! If you meant different, ya fooled me.

We'll do a proof of concept test at Pennsic, till then what say we let this pissing contest lie.

The post whacking brewskys sound tasty regardless of the result though. I'll bring some Magic Hat (http://www.magichat.net)

Regards,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dukelogan:
<B>dva,
but your quote was:

People regularly make allegations that plastic is "unsafe" and "foolhardy".

like i said, i used the term foolhardy in reference to plastic knees and not, as your post credits me, regarding plastic alone. so it was not an accurate representation.

as far as your comments regarding my proposition goes, you pick the fighter and we can both stand there and let him hit our knees until one of us is injured. we can do this off site if you want. i simply contend that your plastic knees will not hold up to the test and i am sure that my steel knees will due to their weight and strength. it has nothing to do with my skill as a fighter or yours and it wasnt a blow for blow fight but a blow for blow test against that particular piece of armor. sorry if that was the impression you got.

and i am also sorry that you think defending your position on this topic is stupid. i would rather have hoped that you felt as strongly in action about your product as you do in word. i think that plastic knees are foolhardy at best and i further offer that i do not think they offer any real protection for the knees. i am willing to put my metal knees to the test anytime. i would hope that you would as well.

i will provide the ride and the beer in my camp afterwards if you want. 8^)

regards
logan

edit was for clarity

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 03-03-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

edited for acceptance of the beer

[This message has been edited by Dark Victory Armory (edited 03-04-2003).]

My experience is that plastic with foam padding behind it is the safest thing I have ever worn.

Metal with no padding is no good.

Alaric

plastic with no padding is worse than metal with no padding.

Steel backed with natural-fiber padding is better than plastic with no padding.

Fellows,

This discussion is completely moot. Reality calls for medieval replica armour to be constructed of period style materials (metal, leather, etc.) unless you are re-enacting the middle ages of another planet. As there are no documented safty problems with using appropiate materials in properly constructed armour, there is absolutely no reason to prefer modern materials over medieval style ones. To the extent that the modern materials are completely disguised to appear as medieval ones, they can be an acceptable though inferior substitute to period materials for SCA armour. There is no accecptable excuse for the use of modern materials (plastic, black or otherwise) in an undisguised form. As to the question of weight, medieval warriors fought in 60 to 70# rigs. Replica armour made from spring steel can actually weigh less than their covered plastic counter parts. Weight is not an issue!

-Tom Justus

I agree with Tom.

Richard

Listen to Tom.

To add to Tom's point -

Given that hardened leather armour can be made by a person in an apartment, with in essence the *exact same* technology as usd in making pickle-barrel armour, with only the added step of room-temperature water immersion to 'samm' the leather there is no excuse for using plastic. If you can afford a Dark Victory suit, you can make a much nicer, historicaly accurate set of hardened leather defences for the same money or less.

------------------
Bob R.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chef de chambre:
<B>To add to Tom's point -

Given that hardened leather armour can be made by a person in an apartment, with in essence the *exact same* technology as usd in making pickle-barrel armour, with only the added step of room-temperature water immersion to 'samm' the leather there is no excuse</B> for using plastic. If you can afford a Dark Victory suit, you can make a much nicer, historicaly accurate set of hardened leather defences for the same money or less.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had a long post prepared to just flame the hell out of this topic but since I just cant a reason that compells me to feel like I should defend steel armor in re-reationist game I figure Ill just ask you Bob.....

whats the deal with "Sam-ing" in regards to making leather stiff?
you tryin to tell me something Bob? do I excite you and this is just a Froidian slip? hehehehehhe

Nyet Samuel,

Samming is the process of hardening leather by immersion in water, partial drying, and then heat application. Terms been around since before your great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great.....etc Grandfather was born

------------------
Bob R.

Sorry I bowed out for a while. It's cold and flu season in New England.

I'm sorry that you and the others don't get it. "Reality" calls for things that work. Medieval "REPLICA" armor is not what most people wear. Don't state as fact what is your desire.

"Documented safety problems"/No reason to prefer. It's not about preference it's about a sane comparison. You don't wanna talk about it, fine. Walk.

The rest of your discussion is just an antiplastic diatribe.

I've listened to the BS about any fool being able to make period gear in authentic materials for less that DVA sells it's completed gear for. We ALL KNOW that experience of the type that lives on this board is rare. There are a lot of people who decide that they'd rather spend their free time fighting than armoring. I respect that decision and provide inexpensive, effective gear.

If you want to blow off this discussion by backing down the hole of "plastic ain't period" well then maybe I'm onto something. Or isn't steel able to be defended on it's own merits when compared against HDPE.

Don’t priss out on me by bitching about authencity.

With Excessive Intensity cause by Fever,
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tom Justus:
<B>Fellows,

This discussion is completely moot. Reality calls for medieval replica armour to be constructed of period style materials (metal, leather, etc.) unless you are re-enacting the middle ages of another planet. As there are no documented safty problems with using appropiate materials in properly constructed armour, there is absolutely no reason to prefer modern materials over medieval style ones. To the extent that the modern materials are completely disguised to appear as medieval ones, they can be an acceptable though inferior substitute to period materials for SCA armour. There is no accecptable excuse for the use of modern materials (plastic, black or otherwise) in an undisguised form. As to the question of weight, medieval warriors fought in 60 to 70# rigs. Replica armour made from spring steel can actually weigh less than their covered plastic counter parts. Weight is not an issue!

-Tom Justus </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, here's my weigh in:

The articulation of armor contributes to its safety; Well articulated armor moves with the wearer, while at the same time supporting joints and keeping them from being twisted out of position.

By virtue of material thickness and flexibility, plastic is not ideal for any properly articulated applications.

Also, plastic may be able to take a beating before suffering any material damage, but it is also more flexible and thus allows much more of the blow through in a directed fashion without spreading the force. I can hit a t-shirt a thousand times with a rattan stick without causing a single tear because the t-shirt will just bend or stretch when hit. That doesn't mean a t-shirt is good armor.

For these two reasons (and many others) it is my opinion that plastic is not as safe a material for armor as is steel.

Plastic could probably be *as safe* as steel for any area that does not articulate (such as a breastplate or a very simple half-gauntlet) assuming that very thick plastic is used to make the plastic as rigid as steel. For any other application, I believe that steel is a superior material for safety.

(For the record, I've made plastic armor in the past for LARPs and still do on occasion. Until my next suit is completed, my primary armor for the SCA includes a suede-covered plastic breastplate. I used to wear plastic legs (except for the cop, which was steel) but I eventually changed to full steel knees because my personal experience was that the steel provided better protection.)

Blunt trama is the real issue. Plastic deforms more. I have seen it with my own eyes enough times. I have seem lots of barrel armour and even costructed quite a bit of it myself. (In my younger and foolish days). I've seen how plastic flexes under the blow from a rattan sword. I've worn it and felt it flex under a rattan sword. It transfers a far greater ammount of force than steel.
I've worn and made a lot of steel. I know that when I where steel on any body part I am far less likely to have injury from blunt trama. (bruises) Not only because the steel does not flex as much but also because it is heavier and does not move as much. Another advantage is that it is shaped more like my body which also keeps it from moving arround and flapping against my body.
No one has said that plastic does not meet the minimum requirement for most SCA combat armour. We are only saying that steel is safer than plastic over all not that plastic is not safe enough for SCA combat.
It's funny though. I have fought with aluminum, steel, plastic, and gamboised leg armour over the years. Steel protected the best and the gammboised legs are a problem with deep bruises. However the gamboised legs actually protect better than the aluminium or plastic for lighter or less direct blows. The plastic and aluminium always stung more than the gamboised legs and I got much worse surface bruising. My gamboised legs also hug my body and even with the steel polyens weigh less than plastic. Granted they are made from two layers of terry cloth and canvas covered with wool but considering that the protect almost as well as the heavy leather legs I wore before them. Odd isn't it.

Quote: "Sorry I bowed out for a while. It's cold and flu season in New England.
I'm sorry that you and the others don't get it. "Reality" calls for things that work. Medieval "REPLICA" armor is not what most people wear. Don't state as fact what is your desire.

"Documented safety problems"/No reason to prefer. It's not about preference it's about a sane comparison. You don't wanna talk about it, fine. Walk.

The rest of your discussion is just an antiplastic diatribe.

I've listened to the BS about any fool being able to make period gear in authentic materials for less that DVA sells it's completed gear for. We ALL KNOW that experience of the type that lives on this board is rare. There are a lot of people who decide that they'd rather spend their free time fighting than armoring. I respect that decision and provide inexpensive, effective gear.

If you want to blow off this discussion by backing down the hole of "plastic ain't period" well then maybe I'm onto something. Or isn't steel able to be defended on it's own merits when compared against HDPE.

Don’t priss out on me by bitching about authencity.

With Excessive Intensity cause by Fever,
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory"

Ummm. Because you are a good guy and not feeling well, I will stifle my urge to rant at you.

The bottom line is this, if you post a topic regarding the use of plastic in the SCA, people may feel they are simply cutting to the chase by saying that the comparision of plastic to metal is pointless as they feel exposed plastic should not be used at all. You don't have to agree with them, but they have a valid point.

There is an ongoing trend in the SCA to eliminate blatantly modern and ahistoric gear. It will probably take years or even decades to get to the point where I am happy, but it is already better than it was in the mid 1980's by quite a bit. You also have a valid point that exposed plastic is still currently allowed (in the majority of kingdoms) and therefore comparisons in terms of safety, appearance etc. are still valid and useful. If you start flaming people that don't agree with you, you will need to expect to get flamed back.

Tom's post was quite logical and many people (myself included) agree with his point of view to either a degree (no exposed plastic) or completely (don't use plastic at all except for your cup or to make 'real' armour safe, ex: plastic plates under iron maille). He was not flaming you. He was stating a valid contrasting point of view.

Look, I am not defending Tom out of personal bias or because he is a peer. Lord knows Tom and I have been at the point of not speaking to each other or worse in the distant past for reasons that are private and personal. However the point of the archive is to work together to make the SCA and other WMA/Armour groups/the general available knowledge base expand and improve despite our personal bias. Both Tom and I choose to contribute and to civily interact with each other for the greater good. This particular thread focuses on the safety of plastic in an SCA context only. Tom posted a very logical and quite frankly valid and honest opinion that did not deserve your response. If he had posted this on a LARP thread where plastic armour is the de facto standard and historical basis is irrelevant, you might have been justified in your annoyance.

I think you owe Tom an apology.

Richard

Disected with replies...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dark Victory Armory:
<B>Sorry I bowed out for a while. It's cold and flu season in New England.

I'm sorry that you and the others don't get it. "Reality" calls for things that work. Medieval "REPLICA" armor is not what most people wear. Don't state as fact what is your desire.
</B>This isnt "reality" its middle ages Re-creation.... in reality if you where to come at me with a sword Id be shooting you in the kneecaps....
what people wear and what they should be wearing are vastly different.... there are tolerances for certain things due to a lack of understanding when the SCA was concieved about real armor and what it does as well as what the sca's goal is...

"attempt at pre 17th century dress" isnt that what is stated in corpora for playing in the SCA???? So its not Toms desire it is a FACT.. exposed Plastic IS NOT EVEN A HALF ASSED ATTEMPT... hence its getting banned in kingdoms becuase the MAJORITY believe this...<B>
"Documented safety problems"/No reason to prefer. It's not about preference it's about a sane comparison. You don't wanna talk about it, fine. Walk.</B> there is no sane comparison that is the point... would you honestly expect civil war enactors to allow you to set up a POS dome tent in thier camping area? well this is the same thing.. we have rules, dont be a little crying bitch becuase they're getting enforced. and if you dont like it you can walk...<B>

The rest of your discussion is just an antiplastic diatribe.

I've listened to the BS about any fool being able to make period gear in authentic materials for less that DVA sells it's completed gear for. We ALL KNOW that experience of the type that lives on this board is rare. There are a lot of people who decide that they'd rather spend their free time fighting than armoring. I respect that decision and provide inexpensive, effective gear.</B>its about motivation .. if you want to play in this game you have to meet the rules as they come. King Cuan said no exposed plastic in Atlantia are you gonna go whine and say " well we could before" or "well it LOOKS period" frankly what you say doesnt matter the rules do. If somone wants to fight in an all exposed plastic rig im all for them doing it, just not in the sca. people dont join the sca to be a Storm trooper so why are you promoting it? one word PROFIT. you can PROFIT off newbees who dont know better and in my opinion thats like going to have a beer at an AA meeting.....<B>


If you want to blow off this discussion by backing down the hole of "plastic ain't period" well then maybe I'm onto something. Or isn't steel able to be defended on it's own merits when compared against HDPE.

Don’t priss out on me by bitching about authencity.

With Excessive Intensity cause by Fever,
Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

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plastic isnt period hence has no place on the field where people are recreating knightly combat. who gives a Shit what properties it has vs steel, its not a substitute.

normally Id excuse your lil cry session cause Tom tossed wrench in your " justify my shitty money making scheme" but you've come across as a raging asshole for the better part of this thread and frankly im sick this "validate me " thread.......... I was gonna let you alone and not take a dump on you but since you got your blood up and went turd tossing at ONE of the greatest armorers in the USA. I figured Id catch it and feed it to you......

Fellows,

I spoke to Mr. Weinstein last night (although he probably didn’t realize it was me). He seems to be a nice fellow with a beautiful wife and child. From his website DVA http://darkvictory.com it appears that he is trying to offer a low cost way for people to
Enjoy participating in SCA combat.

There is a STRONG movement in my kingdom and others to ban this type of “body protectionâ€

OK everyone I have been reading this thread since it started and well just couldn't take it anymore. DVA safer???well never worn it but from what I have seen don't think so.

More economical and lighter well as far as lighter, I work in Tom Justus' shop as his aprentice and have helped him make many pieces of armour from various materials. Spring steel is far lighter than any of the others and yet harder. It is really the way to go. If not why would guys like Tom jeff and others be pushing it,,, they are the experst here.

Cost well lets address that as well. Full suit of DVA armour(at least thats what it is called) is 230... Ok gets a newbie on the field and wear a tabbard to cover it or use other materials... Fine, but as far as armour goes well on a looks scale no matter what I think it is ugly stuff(my opinion and worded nicely)

So lets compare,,

EGG armoury makes plastic armour as well. guess what at least his stuff looks like armour and articulates,,, cost for everything offered by DVA would be around 350
in his version

OK Red Falcon,,low cost get a newbie on the field METAL armour.. First off,,IT is METALL!! you here me Metal!!! It looks like metal from any distance and will provide adequate protection. Cost for the same components offered by DVA in metal from RF would be 280...minus guanlets because he does not seel them but you can get demis cheap in many places)try ebay),,,so for 50 bucks more you get metal armour that looks more "period" and would meet the no visible plastic rule and is no where as ugly

Finally lets take what is used in Atlantia by several I know(but they do cover it up) and that is off the shelf hockey gear

to get shoulder knees arms and gloves you are talking less than 200 , buy cheap demis, and a gorget can wear under clothes( I know a middleeastern persona who does this) or a tabbard and there ya go.

So there are many options available one cheaper than DVA and can be desguised easily, one in plastic(made to look like armour for about 100 more and one in metal for only slightly more.


So quit your whinning and maybe think about offers made to help you improve your product which in turn could help business and reputation... As it is just seems lots of hot air and self validation

GeneP

Throwing my two cents in here... When I build knees, elbows or head gear, I'm more concerned about deflection and dispersement of energy throughout the piece and how it will enevitably apply force to the body. I make my knee and elbow cops from 18gg mild to start, from the raising process I achieve 14-16gg thickness from the top of the cops then gradually reduce down to about 20gg at the outside of the cop. The fan plate is done with fluted 18gg and then attached over lapping the thinner outside wall of the cop. Once the pieces are case hardened and tempered, de-formation is almost completely removed from the equation. The shape and rise of the cops, then the pitch of the lames they ride on, and the amount of support each lame offers to the top and bottom edge of the cop determine how much force is felt through the the impact. Sloppy lamed joints allow gaps in between the cop and knees, leaving room for the steel to deform. When the lames are in near contact(within 1/32 to 1/16") the cop has nowhere to deform and the case hardened outer shell helps "bounce" the hit away from the initial piont of impact ans skitter. Thus the hit is dispersed away from the knee and onto the surrounding area with less impact force. Plastic joints, in my expierience, haven't been able to support the deformation of a blow because the lames can't stay in cantact with the cop though the full range of motion of the joint. Steel when shaped and articulated correctly, offers by far more protection.

[This message has been edited by Gruber (edited 03-10-2003).]

Wow.

I just read through this thread. I have only one real point here.

Regardless of your POV regarding plastic or metal, it is not ever acceptable to be disrespectful to defend a point. Especially toward Tom, who was simply stating a well researched point.

Tom is a wealth of knowledge and know the ins and outs of this discussion. Listening to him can only increase one's base of real knowledge.

Andrew

The question was saftey. I have no scientiific data, but from 12+ years on the field, i'd say.......depends? Thickness, lames, it all factors' in. The best suit I ever had was an aluminum de tyre lamellar. It was too good. I got a lot of calibration complaints with it. the plastic lamellar I use under my tunic now doesn't give, or distribute as well, but neither does it bend with blows.

Not to weigh in too much with the "enemy" (just kidding about the enemy point) but, I see over and over where people say:" for the price of (insert disliked product here) you can make (insert more liked armour)"

Problem is, it isnt a fair compairison. For the price of a Rev's Rainment's Tunic, you can make 5 cotton tunics. Sure you can, but you will be putting time and effort into the production. The people who tend to buy DVA armour (and correct me if I'm wrong) do so mainly because it is ready made. If they wanted to MAKE thier own armour, I wager they would go buy a barell and a sabre saw. DVA's business model seems to be centered around a consumer who

A) wants to not get hurt
B) wants to spend the least amount of money possible
C) wants to exert as little effort gettig the protection as possible
and
D) Wants to spend minimal time upkeeping the items.
E) wants minimal encumbrance

it is difficult to meet all 4 criteria w/o creating a similar product, mainly because of B and D.
A titanium transitional harness would be light, safe, and have minimal upkeep, but would not be affordable

Likewise a mildsteel harness might be safe and cheap, but is prone to rust, and can be heavy.

If DVa were to offer a "premium" suit, one that looked more like an historical example, i dunno how many they would sell in relation to thier current wares. it is clear that they would most likely add clientele, but the question is "how many"?

-+G

Your points are well taken. Customers who buy our gear choose it because it matches their own priorities. The concept of a premium kit is one I've been considering for a while. One upgrade possibility that has been suggested by this discussion is an improved breastplate along with a fan shaped Pauldron. This would fulfill both our need to meet that segment of the market while still being compatible with (in order of priority) 1) No reduction in safety, 2) Can be made affordably.

I'm certainly not the craftsman that Tom Justus is! Never aspired to be, I have other priorities and there are talented folks who have that market segment handled already. But if I can make other products that match with customer demand then naturally I'll bring them to market.

Regards,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

Tom,

Consensus votes that I treated your view unfairly when I posted before. I buy that opinion and apologize for being a prick.
I'd like to discuss options for raising the historical acceptability of our gear in order to offer a premium set. Although I don't see a "functional" purpose yet to the upgrades, if I broaden my view of it to include "perceived form in an SCA environment" then I think I'm there.

Regards and Again Sorry for Whacking you,
Ld. Dieterick von Bern
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com
--who's feeling loads better!